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God Exists, Relatively Speaking

Agent Smith January 30, 2022 at 08:45 5975 views 29 comments
God, the OOO God (omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent), does He exist? An open question to some, complete nonsense to others, an undeniable fact to the other third.

I mean to draw a distinction that of the absolute and the relative.

By the former I mean, as herein relevant, a God that's the big honcho, the capo di tutti i capi, the master of all, anything beyond an absolute God is inconceivable.

By the latter, a relative God, I refer to (a) being(s) that are best among a group to which s/he/they belong to. On this view, God(s) do exist for surely there is one among the 7 billion of us who is the most moral (relative omnibenvolence), another who is most knowledgeable (relative omniscience), still another who is most powerful (relative omnipotence). These 3 special people (triumvirate) then together become for the rest of us, our relative God.

The absolute God may/may not exist!

The relative God exists alright!

We just need to get the trio together to form the 3-person team we can justifiably call/label God, relative God to be precise.

Comments (29)

Down The Rabbit Hole January 30, 2022 at 10:49 #649269
Reply to Agent Smith

Should we worship them? And when we are visited by advanced ET?
pfirefry January 30, 2022 at 11:18 #649274
Finally, a solution to the Great Filter. The humanity is saved for today.
Agent Smith January 30, 2022 at 11:20 #649275
Quoting Down The Rabbit Hole
Should we worship them? And when we are visited by advanced ET?


A good question. Makes us rethink what worship actually is and what purpose it serves? Clearly, since there's a difference between an absolute God and a relative God, worship may need to be recalibrated accordingly, from fanatical devotion to a more measured form of respect.

Agent Smith January 30, 2022 at 11:22 #649276
Quoting pfirefry
the Great Filter
@Down The Rabbit Hole

Extraterrestrials, provided they're relatively good, powerful, and knowledgeable, would need to be treated as relative gods. The same goes for them too.

Agent Smith January 30, 2022 at 11:22 #649277
[math]\exists[/math] [Not the OOO God (absolute deity), but the ooo god (relative deity)]
Cornwell1 January 30, 2022 at 11:24 #649278
Reply to Agent Smith

Ooo my God!
Cornwell1 January 30, 2022 at 11:32 #649281
We can, faithfully to both science, as seems to be imperative in modern society, and God, say with 100% certainty that there is a god or even more (the latter seems to be the actual case). They are absolutely there. How else can it be? Where did our universe or the laws governing it come from? Exactly! Not from natural laws. Stephen Hawking wanted to know the mind of God. He wasn't able to read it yet...
Cornwell1 January 30, 2022 at 11:34 #649285
Quoting pfirefry
Finally, a solution to the Great Filter


What is the Great Filter? Is God a filter?
Down The Rabbit Hole January 30, 2022 at 12:22 #649293
Reply to Agent Smith

Quoting Agent Smith
A good question. Makes us rethink what worship actually is and what purpose it serves? Clearly, since there's a difference between an absolute God and a relative God, worship may need to be recalibrated accordingly, from fanatical devotion to a more measured form.


The Queen of England is treated as a demigod - riches, rituals, songs, and even the final say on whether bills become law. Surely advanced humans or ET could be worshiped in at least the same way.
Agent Smith January 30, 2022 at 12:41 #649298
Quoting Down The Rabbit Hole
The Queen of England is treated as a demigod - riches, rituals, songs, and even the final say on whether bills become law. Surely advanced humans or ET could be worshiped in at least the same way.


What is worship?
Cornwell1 January 30, 2022 at 13:00 #649300
The emperor of Japan was considered a deity, untill people actually heard him speak on the radio, to declare Japan's surrender. How disappointed they must have been!
Down The Rabbit Hole January 30, 2022 at 13:17 #649303
Reply to Agent Smith

Quoting Agent Smith
What is worship?


To honour or show reverence for (usually god/s).

Support for the Queen is consistently above 80%. Much more than the percentage of us Brits that believe in let alone worship god/s.
Agent Smith January 30, 2022 at 13:39 #649308
Quoting Down The Rabbit Hole
To honour or show reverence for (usually god/s).

Support for the Queen is consistently above 80%. Much more than the percentage of us Brits that believe in let alone worship god/s.


The statistics are intriguing.

I don't think God/gods should be worshipped. They should be treated with respect though.
Cornwell1 January 30, 2022 at 14:25 #649322
Quoting Agent Smith
[Not the OOO God (absolute deity), but the ooo god (relative deity)]


I can't see much difference between OOOGod and Ooogod. Except between OOG and oog. What's the difference between OG and og?
Down The Rabbit Hole January 30, 2022 at 14:48 #649337
Reply to Agent Smith

Quoting Agent Smith
The statistics are intriguing.

I don't think God/gods should be worshipped. They should be treated with respect though.


A lot of the worshipping for both god/s and the Queen is tradition.

An all-powerful god would know how much we love them without the need for worship, and an all-loving god would love us either way.
Agent Smith January 30, 2022 at 16:37 #649368
Quoting Cornwell1
I can't see much difference between OOOGod and Ooogod. Except between OOG and oog. What's the difference between OG and og?


[quote=Sherlock Holmes]Sit down my dear fellow and describe these peculiar circumstances.[/quote]
Cornwell1 January 30, 2022 at 17:59 #649396
Reply to Agent Smith

"Chalk powder in his hair... an encounter in a classroom... red stains on shoes... forgot to close the strawberry jam jar... mint odor... brushed teeth... false mustache... trails of omnipotence... small indication of omnipresence... seems a nice guy... must be triplex o..."
Seppo January 30, 2022 at 18:39 #649409
Quoting Cornwell1
We can, faithfully to both science, as seems to be imperative in modern society, and God, say with 100% certainty that there is a god or even more (the latter seems to be the actual case). They are absolutely there. How else can it be? Where did our universe or the laws governing it come from?


This is just a naked/textbook argument from ignorance. From the fact that we do not presently have a non-theistic explanation for some X, it does not follow that it therefore has a theistic explanation.

And in any case, God is not any sort of an explanation anyways: explanations account for unknowns in terms of knowns, they do not merely substitute one unknown for another unknown.
Cornwell1 January 30, 2022 at 22:23 #649497
Quoting Seppo
This is just a naked/textbook argument from ignorance. From the fact that we do not presently have a non-theistic explanation for some X, it does not follow that it therefore has a theistic explanation.


Well, it depends on how deep the explanation goes. If there is nothing left to explain, then the last question is: where did the reality I describe come from. What else than gods can be the answer? How can such ingenious structure exist by itself?
Seppo January 30, 2022 at 23:46 #649534
Quoting Cornwell1
What else than gods can be the answer? How can such ingenious structure exist by itself?


The point is, from the fact that we currently lack an answer, it doesn't follow that there is no such answer. For the theistic explanation to follow, the very possibility of a non-theistic alternative must be ruled out (not merely presently lacking).
Cornwell1 January 31, 2022 at 00:01 #649539
Quoting Seppo
The point is, from the fact that we currently lack an answer, it doesn't follow that there is no such answer. For the theistic explanation to follow, the very possibility of a non-theistic alternative must be ruled out (not merely presently lacking).


But what if you have found a self consistent, coherent irreducible answer? Where does the stuff you think you have an answer about come from? It can't be it's own answer.
Agent Smith January 31, 2022 at 05:41 #649679
Quoting Seppo
explanations account for unknowns in terms of knowns, they do not merely substitute one unknown for another unknown.


:clap: :up: That was well worded and packed with meanging!

One of the posters, a while ago, remarked that the "worship of God", if you really think about it, "is the worship of ignorance"; not a new idea (god of the gaps), but still a particular turn of phrase manages to clarify a position in a much better way than a scholarly essay.
jgill January 31, 2022 at 21:35 #649900
Quoting Agent Smith
The relative God exists alright!


The best among us is but human, although I would agree that Tom Brady is a God.

To equate the far end of a normal curve to a celestial being is beyond philosophy IMHO and a fantasy.

Quoting Cornwell1
How can such ingenious structure exist by itself?


Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do and die.

Seppo January 31, 2022 at 23:37 #649960
Reply to Agent Smith which is why its ludicrous when people claim that God is somehow a superior explanation, or is the best or only explanation for something... God isn't an explanation at all! Invoking God is to abandon the search for an explanation.
Agent Smith February 01, 2022 at 00:25 #649981
Reply to Seppo :up:

Have you come across this statement: A theory that explains everything explains nothing! I can't find the person who said it, sorry.

Do you have any idea why?
Agent Smith February 01, 2022 at 00:29 #649982
Quoting jgill
The relative God exists alright!
— Agent Smith

The best among us is but human, although I would agree that Tom Brady is a God.

To equate the far end of a normal curve to a celestial being is beyond philosophy IMHO and a fantasy.


Relative god, not an absolute God. I have made adjustments to the status of a relative god - brought Him down a notch or two - and that, in my humble opinion, should satisfy all parties involved.
Seppo February 01, 2022 at 16:57 #650182
Reply to Agent Smith Wasn't that Popper? If a proposition or theory doesn't exclude anything- if it has no conditions under which it can be falsified- then it is, in a certain sense, vacuous: its consistent with any and all state of affairs or pieces of evidence, and its truth is indistinguishable from its falsity.
Agent Smith February 01, 2022 at 17:03 #650187
Reply to Seppo Makes sense. :up:
lish February 16, 2022 at 09:41 #655568
Hi Agent Smith,

I think your argument can be laid out like so.

1. If the most powerful person, the most knowledgeable person, the most moral person exist, and they can form a triumvirate, then a relative God exists.
2. The most powerful person, the most knowledgeable person, and the most moral person exist, and they can form a triumvirate.
3. Therefore, a relative God exists. (MP 1,2)

While this is a valid argument, I do not think it is sound. Premise 1 especially seems objectionable. God's intentions and actions are good, and therefore a relative God's intentions and actions must also aim at goodness. Just because a triumvirate includes the most moral person in the world does not mean the actions and intentions of the triumvirate will be moral. The difference is that God's qualities- omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence- are cohesive. What I mean is that they are always in agreement with one another, and therefore the intentions and actions of God are always good. The specific two qualities that must agree are morality and power. If they disagree, then the triumvirate will still act evilly. Take the following example. Say, Albert Einstein, Mother Teressa, and Hitler all existed simultaneously. Let's say they were respectively the most knowledgeable, moral, and powerful people in the world. If the three created a triumvirate, they would be considered the relative God. However, Mother Teressa and Hitler are likely not in agreement on actions to take. Because Hitler is the most powerful person in the world, he has the power to override Mother Teressa's desires. As a result, Hitler will act in an immoral way. These actions go wildly against the nature of God, making the triumvirate far from a relative God.

I think an adjustment could be made to the argument, specifically to premise one. You could either change it to:
1. If the most powerful moral person, the most knowledgeable person, the most moral person exist, and they can form a triumvirate, then a relative God exists.
Or,
2. If the most powerful person, the most knowledgeable person, the most moral person exist, and the moral and powerful person agree and they can form a triumvirate, then a relative God exists.

These adjustments to your argument ensure that the powerful person will aim to act morally, meaning the triumvirate can aim at good just as God does.