You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Mediocrity's Perfection

john27 January 09, 2022 at 10:41 7500 views 49 comments
Time and time again, in philosophy we tend to apply "sometimes", to act out in moderation, as a welcomed answer to a plethora of questions, one most notably on the organization of one's life. This is illustrated by Goldilocks, Aristotles Golden Mean, Harmony; it would seem that, to act in moderation is in instant of a rationalized act, to be, in some way or another, perfect.

Hence: Should we consider, the average populous, as instances of perfection? They are the epitome of acting out in moderation, it would seem.

Comments (49)

Hermeticus January 09, 2022 at 12:12 #640419
Quoting john27
Should we consider, the average populous, as instances of perfection?


Sometimes!
john27 January 09, 2022 at 12:47 #640426
baker January 09, 2022 at 15:38 #640460
Quoting john27
Hence: Should we consider, the average populous, as instances of perfection? They are the epitome of acting out in moderation, lacking in extremity in all ways, whatsoever.


It's already happening. Mediocrity as the highest goal, the highest perfection.

The tallest poppy gets its head cut, therefore, it's the mediocre poppy that is the best one.
john27 January 09, 2022 at 16:15 #640466
Quoting baker
It's already happening. Mediocrity as the highest goal, the highest perfection.

The tallest poppy gets its head cut, therefore, it's the mediocre poppy that is the best one.


I agree with you on that, but is it, for lack of a better word, right?

Or maybe, if this is true, what reasons would we have to strive for excellence? Is there a defense for excellence?
Nils Loc January 09, 2022 at 17:08 #640480
Quoting john27
Should we consider, the average populous, as instances of perfection? They are the epitome of acting out in moderation, lacking in extremity in all ways, whatsoever.


How does one justify this claim? We could just as well say that the average populous is compelled into extreme acts from the standpoint of our hunter-gatherer ancestors (the average lifestyle for 100,000 plus years of human development) . Driving around in a private car isn't an extreme act relative to a global mean? The average human animal might as well be an absurd and boundless spirit of extremes with regard to history. But this isn't something one can blame the individual for (or one can try).

We're collectively causing global warming/CC and yet we (average joe/jane) are lacking in extremity in all ways?



john27 January 09, 2022 at 17:22 #640483
Quoting Nils Loc
How does one justify this claim? We could just as well say that the average populous is compelled into extreme acts from the standpoint of our hunter-gatherer ancestors (the average lifestyle for 100,000 plus years of human development) . Driving around in a private car isn't an extreme act relative to global mean?

We're causing global warming/CC and yet we're lacking in extremity in all ways?
7 minutes ago



Well I would agree with you that the notion of "average" is relative. That, and sometimes we do act in an extreme manner (I wish I could edit the OP) . However in the effect that the average person does not lack extremity, it only contributes to his average-ness.

T Clark January 09, 2022 at 17:36 #640485
Quoting john27
to act in moderation is in instant of a rationalized act, to be, in some way or another, perfect.


Acting in moderation is not mediocrity. That's at the heart of many philosophical systems. The Middle Way is fundamental to Buddhism. Plato and Aristotle wrote about moderation. This is from the Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell's translation of Verse 8:

[i]The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.

In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.

When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you.[/i]
john27 January 09, 2022 at 17:39 #640486
Quoting T Clark
Acting in moderation is not mediocrity.


Hm. What's the difference then?
john27 January 09, 2022 at 17:43 #640487
Quoting T Clark
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.


Hmm...What does this poem mean by "low place"?
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 17:48 #640488
Quoting baker
The tallest poppy gets its head cut, therefore, it's the mediocre poppy that is the best one.


Oh good. Another chance to use Taoist quotations. This from the Chuang-tsu, Thomas Merton's translation:

[i]Hui Tzu said to Chuang:
I have a big tree,
The kind they call a "stinktree."
The trunk is so distorted,
So full of knots,
No one can get a straight plank
Out of it. The branches are so crooked
You cannot cut them up
In any way that makes sense.

There it stands beside the road.
No carpenter will even look at it.

Such is your teaching
Big and useless...

So for your big tree. No use?
Then plant it in the wasteland
In emptiness.
Walk idly around,
Rest under its shadow;
No axe or bill prepares its end.
No one will ever cut it down.
Useless? You should worry![/i]
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 17:52 #640490
Quoting john27
Hm. What's the difference then?


Definitions from the web.

Mediocre:
  • Of ordinary or undistinguished quality. synonym: average.
  • Of a middle quality; of but a moderate or low degree of excellence; indifferent; ordinary.
  • Ordinary: not extraordinary; not special, exceptional, or great; of medium quality;


Moderate:
  • Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme.
  • Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate.
  • Of medium or average quantity or extent.
john27 January 09, 2022 at 17:54 #640491
Reply to T Clark

I don't know, those look pretty similar to me.
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 17:58 #640493
Quoting john27
Hmm...What does this poem mean by "low place"?


Humility is a big deal in Taoism. Many verses talk about the danger of exalting yourself. Trying to achieve acclaim. One metaphor that gets used a lot is that Tao is like water. It always seeks out low places, but it has great power. In low places, things gain no advantage or acclaim. They are ignored.
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 17:59 #640494
Quoting john27
I don't know, those look pretty similar to me.


If that's really true, and not just a rhetorical feint, there's not much else I can say.
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 18:04 #640496
Quoting john27
Is there a defense for excellence?


There's a saying - The excellent is the enemy of the good. My way of saying that is - Good is good enough. Sometimes, when I'm frustrated or lazy, I might say - Good enough is good enough.

So much in the world is not particularly good, it's mediocre. Aiming for good is an appropriate and honorable goal.
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 18:06 #640498
Reply to john27

I do appreciate you starting this.
john27 January 09, 2022 at 18:06 #640499
Reply to T Clark

Oh, neat.

john27 January 09, 2022 at 18:09 #640501
Quoting T Clark
If that's really true, and not just a rhetorical feint, there's not much else I can say.


Dang. Am I missing something? I've always thought that mediocrity relies on an average, or a moderated effort.
john27 January 09, 2022 at 18:13 #640502
Quoting T Clark
There's a saying - The excellent is the enemy of the good. My way of saying that is - Good is good enough. Sometimes, when I'm frustrated or lazy, I might say - Good enough is good enough.

So much in the world is not particularly good, it's mediocre. Aiming for good is an appropriate and honorable goal.


Huh. I see what you're saying, although is mediocrity really so far removed from "good'?
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 18:14 #640504
Quoting john27
is mediocrity really so far removed from "good'?


Yes.
john27 January 09, 2022 at 18:15 #640505
Quoting T Clark
I do appreciate you starting this.


:up:
john27 January 09, 2022 at 18:20 #640509
Reply to T Clark

Would mediocrity be considered evil then?
gikehef947 January 09, 2022 at 18:25 #640511
Reply to john27

Should you kill? Never. Should you love? Forever. Aristotle said that the middle ground did not apply to criminal behavior. His rule has the same meaning as Solon's admonitions or Moses' laws. There are some precepts that you must follow if you do not want to die inside. As long as you fulfill them, how you organize your life is up to you and it may be a boring life, but it will be a good one.
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 18:42 #640518
Quoting john27
Would mediocrity be considered evil then?


We're talking about good, i.e. high quality, vs. low quality. Not good vs. evil.
Caldwell January 09, 2022 at 18:57 #640525
Quoting john27
Time and time again, in philosophy we tend to apply "sometimes" as a welcomed answer to a series of most difficult questions. Should you kill? Sometimes. Should you love? Sometimes. Goldilocks, Aristotles Golden Mean, Harmony; it would seem that, to act in moderation is in instant of a rationalized act, to be, in some way or another, perfect.

I'd say this is not how we apply an "exception" to the rule. The accepted question is in the form "When is killing justified?" which shouldn't be construed as "there is always a justification for killing" -- as your use of "sometimes" suggests. There may never be a time when killing is justified, so that "average" may never happen.

And exception to normative behavior may never arise. No one guarantees that an exception will occur.
john27 January 09, 2022 at 18:59 #640527
Quoting T Clark
We're talking about good, i.e. high quality, vs. low quality. Not good vs. evil.


Oh true. In that regard, I'd agree with you.
john27 January 09, 2022 at 19:15 #640532
Reply to Caldwell

If I understand correctly, "Sometimes" definitely isn't always correct. For sure. However, it (to act in moderation) has shown a striking amount of consistency in being "right" when it's correlated to how one should run one's life. So I chose it to perform as "you should always act in moderation" because that's just how I felt.

What I'm more confused with is that if, it happens to be always right, does it extend to the average person/does the average man/woman have the perfect life?

Edit: reread your reply and i'll be honest, I'm pretty lost. I'm not sure if what I said here applies to your response...Care to maybe dumb it down a bit?
Caldwell January 09, 2022 at 20:19 #640552
Quoting john27
Edit: reread your reply and i'll be honest, I'm pretty lost. I'm not sure if what I said here applies to your response...Care to maybe dumb it down a bit?

I was mainly responding to your opening post. You said:

Quoting john27
Time and time again, in philosophy we tend to apply "sometimes" as a welcomed answer to a series of most difficult questions. Should you kill? Sometimes. Should you love? Sometimes. Goldilocks, Aristotles Golden Mean, Harmony; it would seem that, to act in moderation is in instant of a rationalized act, to be, in some way or another, perfect.

Do you see how you slide from what should have been a question in this form "When is killing justified?", to "Is killing justified?", answer = "Sometimes". There is a difference.
Then you continued on with the goldilocks syndrome of an answer, etc. which should not be the case here. Those are two different attitude or reasoning.

john27 January 09, 2022 at 20:47 #640560
Quoting Caldwell
Do you see how you slide from what should have been a question in this form "When is killing justified?", to "Is killing justified?", answer = "Sometimes". There is a difference.
Then you continued on with the goldilocks syndrome of an answer, etc. which should not be the case here. Those are two different attitude or reasoning.


I see. Here, let me edit the OP and see if it makes more sense.
BC January 09, 2022 at 21:52 #640605
Quoting T Clark
Tao Te Ching


How long is this Ching thing you've got going to last?
T Clark January 09, 2022 at 22:12 #640616
Quoting Bitter Crank
How long is this Ching thing you've got going to last?


I've been around for 70 years. I figure I've got another 10 years give or take. So - let's say 10 years.
Caldwell January 10, 2022 at 00:39 #640682
Quoting john27
Time and time again, in philosophy we tend to apply "sometimes", to act out in moderation, as a welcomed answer to a plethora of questions, one most notably on the organization of one's life. This is illustrated by Goldilocks, Aristotles Golden Mean, Harmony; it would seem that, to act in moderation is in instant of a rationalized act, to be, in some way or another, perfect.

Much better! Thanks.
In that regard, your issue now focuses more on the response we make -- the middle, or the moderate answer. I think a lot of us want to play it safe by giving this kind of answer. We don't want to come off as the "bad guy", or having a extreme view.
Agent Smith January 10, 2022 at 07:14 #640758
Desperate times call for desperate measures!

I prefer the proportio divina to Aristotelian golden mean. It seems to be the most logical choice given how things are.

Tit-for-tat and so on...

Although...

[quote=Mahatma Gandhi]An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.[/quote]
john27 January 10, 2022 at 11:30 #640816
Quoting Caldwell
In that regard, your issue now focuses more on the response we make -- the middle, or the moderate answer. I think a lot of us want to play it safe by giving this kind of answer. We don't want to come off as the "bad guy", or having a extreme view.


Right. But is that ok? What's wrong with having an extreme view; better yet, what's wrong with being mediocre?
baker January 10, 2022 at 15:13 #640894
Quoting T Clark
The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.

In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.

When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you.


The irony is, of course, that anything can be described with these words.

Quoting T Clark
Humility is a big deal in Taoism. Many verses talk about the danger of exalting yourself. Trying to achieve acclaim. One metaphor that gets used a lot is that Tao is like water. It always seeks out low places, but it has great power. In low places, things gain no advantage or acclaim. They are ignored.


Nonsense. Taoist literature should be read the same way as Machiavelli's The Prince.
baker January 10, 2022 at 15:22 #640898
Quoting john27
I agree with you on that, but is it, for lack of a better word, right?


For many practical intents and purposes, it's safe. Usually, this is as good as life gets anyway.

Or maybe, if this is true, what reasons would we have to strive for excellence? Is there a defense for excellence?


Well, there is the striving for being excellent in one's mediocrity. It's an art to be average, to fit in, to not stick out, to be utterly non-different in one's differentness.
Agent Smith January 10, 2022 at 15:34 #640902
@T Clark Quoting baker
The irony is, of course, that anything can be described with these words.


This is pure awesomeoness, no? Rorshach inkblot test! The story in the book is not told by the writer but by the reader!
god must be atheist January 10, 2022 at 21:38 #641002
the reason the OP (original post) comes to the conclusion that average is best, is that literary characters and therefore the moral lessons in literary creations, exalt the mediocre. And not always, but sometimes.

The literary characters have two characteristics that they must possess:
1. be endearing to the reader
2. be able to overcome an adversity and demonstrate the same in the book or movie or play.

The endearing part comes from mediocrity. Everyone loves the underdog. If the underdog wins, the crowd loves it.

Mediocre guys are invariably pitted against a challenge that they are unlikely to overcome.

Yet through cunning, or via strength, or via moral vicissitude, or through blood viscosity, they overcome the challenge. Otherwise the book is a fail.

-------------------

Reading the above, I can't but come to the conclusion that books are not writing reality. They have a main character that is irreconcilable with itself. It is both a mediocre person AND an outstanding genius of sorts at the same time and in the same respect.

This is a trick writers must use to draw the reader in, and let him leave with a feeling of satisfaction, over the good earning its just rewards, and the bad, its just punishment.

This is a complete hoax, a total separation from reality. In real life the average guy is a loser, and the genius / strong man / moral giant is never a loser. Unless, of course, they oppose a another character who is "gianter" then they are.

-----------------

The OP uses examples that are replete in kind in world literature : the books are written to promote the sale of more books. This is done by writing books that readers want to read, and that is the kind that involves lies and discrepancies. The OP can't and ought not to be believed when it promotes ideals, values and general expectations gleaned from books of literary fiction.
T Clark January 10, 2022 at 21:42 #641006
Quoting baker
Nonsense. Taoist literature should be read the same way as Machiavelli's The Prince.


Your judgement and mine are often at odds.
john27 January 10, 2022 at 22:10 #641014
Quoting god must be atheist
Yet through cunning, or via strength, or via moral vicissitude, or through blood viscosity, they overcome the challenge. Otherwise the book is a fail.


Mm. Like Agent Smith says here: Quoting Agent Smith
Desperate times call for desperate measures!
The love of mediocrity seems to come from a casual necessity to appeal to the average populous. Almost like a global escapist project.

Quoting god must be atheist
This is a complete hoax, a total separation from reality. In real life the average guy is a loser, and the genius / strong man / moral giant is never a loser.


:up:
Well, at least sometimes. :joke:

Quoting god must be atheist
The OP can't and ought not to be believed when it promotes ideals, values and general expectations gleaned from books of literary fiction.


Ahhh you got me good there.


god must be atheist January 10, 2022 at 22:29 #641027
Quoting john27
Ahhh you got me good there.


Sorry... I meant the Original Post not the Original Poster. I clarified it in the beginning of my post there.

You are not a liar, a cheater, a thief. At least I have no evidence of that. I trust you and welcome your opinions.
john27 January 10, 2022 at 22:45 #641029
Quoting god must be atheist
Sorry... I meant the Original Post not the Original Poster. I clarified it in the beginning of my post there.


Oh true. Well it's alright in any case, I'm more of an OG myself. :cool:

Quoting god must be atheist
You are not a liar, a cheater, a thief. At least I have no evidence of that. I trust you and welcome your opinions.


Thanks dawg.

Edit: Just wanted to clarify that I do really appreciate you saying that. Thank you.
Nils Loc January 11, 2022 at 00:09 #641065
Quoting god must be atheist
Mediocre guys are invariably pitted against a challenge that they are unlikely to overcome.

Yet through cunning, or via strength, or via moral vicissitude, or through blood viscosity, they overcome the challenge. Otherwise the book is a fail.


Crime and Punishment (Loser has illusions of grandeur, commits murder, can't hold it together, gets caught... what a loser)

Moby Dick (Losers stuck on a ship are taken by a ride by mad captain, a kind of loser, who holds grudge against a whale of all things. They all get screwed by Moby. Everyone dies except the narrator. Lady luck is on Ishmael's side.)

Grendel, John Gardner (The loser is a monster by birth, fated to be lonely because of his inheritance/identity, meets his fate by the hand of the hero, Beowulf, because he is really tired of it all)

Painted Bird (Loser is a lost child buffeted by the unspeakable depravities of war, tortured until morally cracked)

Death in Venice (Loser is a benign and depressed pedophile, who stays in Venice despite epidemic to stare at young boy. Loser dies of cholera)

Anna Karenina (Lady can't cope, throws herself in front of train)

Great Gatsby (Bunch of wealthy party dicks, winners, accidentally kill a woman while having a gay old time. Gatsby takes the blame and gets murdered. Can't enjoy bootlegged wealth when your dead.)

Requiem for a Dream (Folks make a bunch of life mistakes which cause them to spiral down the drain of life, now losers, to be further used and abused)

Irreversible (Lady gets brutally raped. Raper narrowly evades the act of vengeance while some misidentified person gets targeted and macerated)

1984 (Loser is stuck in a dystopic hell, lured into a trap of hope, only to be absolutely and finally broken by totalitarian control).

The screwball chaos of life, losers failing, winners failing, in strange circumstances, makes for some worthwhile reads/vids.




Caldwell January 12, 2022 at 02:13 #641459
Quoting john27
Right. But is that ok? What's wrong with having an extreme view; better yet, what's wrong with being mediocre?

No. There's nothing wrong with having an extreme view. Having an extreme view is relative anyway: People are disgusted with filth! That's extreme, as in, no middle ground there. Are they correct? Yes, they are.
We have extreme views on a lot of things -- on clearly immoral acts such as serial killers, child abuse, starvation, etc.
john27 January 13, 2022 at 02:55 #642120
Reply to Caldwell

I agree. :up:
baker January 14, 2022 at 22:57 #643120
Reply to Nils Loc Winners don't read those books or watch those films. For them, those books and films actually are fails.
Nils Loc January 15, 2022 at 00:58 #643214
Reply to baker

Tragedies are for losers... to feel better about themselves. Someone got it worse. :death:
baker January 19, 2022 at 11:47 #645117
Reply to Nils Loc What do winners read (or what films do they watch)?
Nils Loc January 19, 2022 at 16:51 #645207
Reply to baker

Using this dichotomy of winners and losers is a failure on my part.

Virtuous/successful/loved/gifted people watch and read what their unlucky counterparts do, whatever they're into.