Drugs

Quoting Xtrix

Does anyone find that drugs have led them to greater philosophical insights or clarity? Any epiphanies? If so, what were they? (Both the insights and the drugs.)

Insofar as one pays attention to one's own attention during and after one "trips", the grip (habit) of ego-other (self-morethanself) duality reflectively loosens. Recollections from old posts ...
Quoting 180 Proof

I spent several years in the 1980s in a purple haze of hallucinogens such as LSD & mushrooms, to name two of the best known, that deconstructed the unity of my self-conscious identity and flirted a little too closely at the time with a schizoid-like break (-down? -through?) which finally scared me back from the (l)edge. Whatever I'd "perceived" in various altered states had not really fascinated me nearly as much as how memories of those "perceptions" assaulted – began to rewire – my ordinary conscious states. I'd become conditioned, I guess, to conceive of 'my self' in different tenses (i.e. a non-unitary past self – present self – future self simultaneously) rather than in the clinically schizoid manner of 'different personalities'. That was/has been quite liberating for me both philosophically and psychologically.

Quoting 180 Proof

So, for me, psychoactive-induced [out-of-body experiences] had showed me that, without psychoactives, [suspending the ego] is not only possible to self-induce but more preferable and more holistic. As far as I've discerned, the (intrinsic) benefit of intermitten [suspense of the ego] has been gradually gaining a non-egoic understanding of others' lives and one's life, livelihoods and life-worlds.

Reply to Xtrix
I have found that caffeine helps with clear rational thinking and, this was initially through taking caffeine tablets when I was a student. I sometimes took more than the recommended dose and my thoughts were racing. I was using it like a form of speed and it was during this time that I stopped going to church and questioned religion.

Smoking dope was extremely pleasant and I found it good for closing my eyes and seeing inner imagery. I tried acid twice and it definitely seemed to open up a different kind of reality, beyond the one of day to day awareness, more like the one described in shamanism I am not sure that I ever got back into my body though because my physical coordination has seemed worse, although it was never that great. But, swallowing morning glory seeds was great in the sense that I could see images on the door but was not completely stoned and was able to sketch the images. The biggest problem with morning glory seeds is that they are coated in poison to deter people from eating them. I had stomach ache during the night after taking them and, perhaps, 2 packets of seeds are somewhere inside me still.

I haven't had any illegal drugs in a long while. I drink wine sometimes when I am reading, but try not to get to carried away with this. I got lost a few times after being out late at night after drinking and reading in pubs. I am still looking for the perfect elixir and do experiment with herbal medicines, including the herb, Passiflora, which I do find does help with sleep. Absinthe is a bit tempting to try but I am not sure that it such a good idea..

Quoting Xtrix

Does anyone find that drugs have led them to greater philosophical insights or clarity? Any epiphanies?

No. Listening to music (classical) is the only experience that's ever felt transcendent or epiphanic. I did find heroin and morphine to provide the best experience of overall wellbeing and peace I've every felt, but there was no concomitant insight or clarity.

Reply to Tom Storm For me it's long hikes in the country or listening to music (jazz), either especially when I'm alone, which reliably conjure my epiphanies.

Reply to 180 Proof Nice - any jazz recommendations? I admit I was really into Coultrane, Mingus, Parker, Gordon, Django and a bit of cool Hammond B3 with Jimmy Smith never goes astray!

Reply to Tom Storm You got some cool cats right there, my man! :cool:

Reply to Xtrix I have one high-CBD strain that seems to facilitate hyper-focus, great for reading and writing. I find I read a little slower, but I really squeeze every last drop of meaning out of every sentence; often I'll anticipate upcoming developments in the text. My days of doing psychedelics are behind me; those were more about personal psychological epiphanies for me.

I also have the music going constantly. Renaissance classical or instrumental jazz. Good for neural development.....

Reply to 180 Proof Lucid tripping! A rare feat 180 Proof. It's nigh impossible for some if not all to be that aware when under the influence of a psychoactive/neuroleptic.

It's my suspicion that the experience can be considered a chemcial decapitation à la chemical castration carried out on sex offenders. Are those who take drugs mind offenders?

Wait till the thought police hear about this (chemical lobotomy). People who say there's more than one way to skin a cat seem to be right on the money! Who knew?

Headless bodies form part of the monster/ghost folklore of many cultures (in the orient). Maybe they were talking about real people who spend their entire lives drugged from sunrise to sunset. Zombies also fit the description: What's the difference between a corpse with no consciousness and a decapitated body?

Since I don't possess the relevant information on drugs, I can't comment further.

Reply to Agent Smith
There are plenty of people in our culture who do spend their whole lives zombified on drugs, especially alcohol. Mind you, I have to admit that I can't do much in the morning without 2 cups of coffee.

Quoting Jack Cummins

zombified on drugs, especially alcohol.

Could we consider such people d-zombies (drug zombies)? P-zombies suddenly become a (scaring) possibility. I'm an s-zombie (suffering zombie).

Reply to Agent Smith
I am definitely an s-zombie today because I have a cold. It is not the cold that is the problem though, but that I feel that I can't go out in public places in case its Omicron. But, most people are zombies in some form or another and life becomes more and more like cyberpunk horror, with or without stimulants.

:heart:

Alcohol remains my drug of choice. I've never ever jonesed for coffee (though I get daily kicks of caffine from (unsweetened) rich dark chocolate and a pot of black Darjeeling). Also, low to moderate strength THC edibles on occasion in combo with red wine ease me into the numinous while rewatching certain films or slow dancing or falling deeply into after-dinner / late night phone conversations. Mostly though, for the last +two decades, sober clarity via vigorous activity (e.g. daily walks, frequent hikes, less frequent bike rides) has been the thing that really does it for my head.

Reply to 180 Proof
So you're not a coffee drinker? I adore coffee and coffee shops. I do like some alcohol, mainly wine and, definitely not beer or lager, but would definitely not want wine everyday. It is about the right chemical for everything and we take so many in purely in food, probably ones which aren't great like monosodium glutamate, which can cause drowsiness.

But, yes music is one of the most enhancing factors and it is highly likely that it does affect brain chemicals, like endorphins, because the body is a drugstore in its own right. I have known people who don't use caffeine, alcohol etc who seem thoroughly intoxicated.

Reply to Jack Cummins Pre-pandemic flânuerie, I also was a coffee shop (& public library) hobo. :up:

Reply to Xtrix

Strong black coffee in the morning, usually half a pot. An IPA or two in the evening. Both paired with a book. Larger amounts of alcohol make me sleepy and irritable.

9/10 times marijuana will give me a panic attack. I experienced a terrifying sort of ego death one time with a concentrate, but it might have been spiked with something else; it was kind of a stupid decision on my part to take it. I'm curious about acid and mushrooms, but I don't know how I would handle it based on my previous experiences.

Quoting 180 Proof

Insofar as one pays attention to one's own attention during and after one "trips", the grip (habit) of ego-other (self-morethanself) duality reflectively loosens.

Yes indeed. It can be rather disquieting. It elicited a lot of fear in me for a long time, in fact. But in the long run it was very beneficial.

Quoting Jack Cummins

I have found that caffeine helps with clear rational thinking and, this was initially through taking caffeine tablets when I was a student. I sometimes took more than the recommended dose and my thoughts were racing. I was using it like a form of speed and it was during this time that I stopped going to church and questioned religion.

That's interesting. For myself, caffeine has never had that big an effect on me and I never much liked it. I still drink coffee occasionally out of boredom, but the effects are usually jitteriness. Perhaps oddly, I much prefer the dexmethylphenidates to caffeine or other "uppers." On those, I have similar experiences you're describing. I feel much more clear and productive. Perhaps that's because I'm ADHD, who knows. I imagine we all are a little bit these days.

Quoting Jack Cummins

But, swallowing morning glory seeds was great in the sense that I could see images on the door but was not completely stoned and was able to sketch the images. The biggest problem with morning glory seeds is that they are coated in poison to deter people from eating them. I had stomach ache during the night after taking them and, perhaps, 2 packets of seeds are somewhere inside me still.

I have no idea what morning glory seeds are. I've somehow managed to miss this completely in my life. I'll google it.

Quoting Jack Cummins

Absinthe is a bit tempting to try but I am not sure that it such a good idea..

I've always wanted to try absinthe too. Never got around to it.

Quoting Tom Storm

I did find heroin and morphine to provide the best experience of overall wellbeing and peace I've every felt, but there was no concomitant insight or clarity.

What about psychedelic drugs?

Quoting Pantagruel

I have one high-CBD strain that seems to facilitate hyper-focus, great for reading and writing. I find I read a little slower, but I really squeeze every last drop of meaning out of every sentence; often I'll anticipate upcoming developments in the text.

Edibles do the trick for me. CBD never seems to have a big effect. Oddly enough -- and I forgot to mention this -- years ago a friend of mine had an expensive bottle of vitamin B12 complex, and after taking on of those I felt very alert and very much like what you're describing here: focused, reading much more carefully, etc. Goes to show positive effects can come from anywhere, really.

Quoting Tom Storm

Listening to music (classical) is the only experience that's ever felt transcendent or epiphanic

Quoting 180 Proof

listening to music (jazz)

Quoting Pantagruel

I also have the music going constantly. Renaissance classical or instrumental jazz.

Sure, when it comes to things beyond drugs, then music, walking, meditating, yoga, martial arts, etc., are very important to me as well.

As far as music goes while under the infleunce, I once was on ecstasy and high on marijuana, and listened to one of Bach's fugues; nearly lost my mind.

Quoting 180 Proof

Mostly though, for the last +two decades, sober clarity via vigorous activity (e.g. daily walks, frequent hikes, less frequent bike rides) has been the thing that really does it for my head.

You must have tried that combo as well, no? I once took half a weed "gummy" (so 2.5 mg) and took a walk in the New England woods. I was there for 7 hours. Normal walk: hour and a half, two hours. I had two ticks on me, but otherwise it was well worth it. Yet I haven't done so again -- there's still something about me that wants to appreciate things without any "help."

Quoting _db

Strong black coffee in the morning, usually half a pot. An IPA or two in the evening. Both paired with a book. Larger amounts of alcohol make me sleepy and irritable.

What's an IPA?

Quoting _db

9/10 times marijuana will give me a panic attack. I experienced a terrifying sort of ego death one time with a concentrate, but it might have been spiked with something else; it was kind of a stupid decision on my part to take it. I'm curious about acid and mushrooms, but I don't know how I would handle it based on my previous experiences.

That's a very common experience. I would say not to let it scare you away and to get back on the horse, just with a lower dose that you know isn't spiked. You probably just took too much. After that, you can probably handle mushrooms and acid, although they are different experiences.

I had a panic attack once from smoking too much weed while also alone, tired, and coming down with a cold. Not too bright. I felt my mind was out of control -- like images and memories could pop in any minute, and it was quite frightening. But eventually I started up again and was fine. Like anything, you don't want to over-extend. But it all depends on whether you even care about it. I find it to be worthwhile sometimes, but to each his own.

Quoting Xtrix

What about psychedelic drugs?

Never felt the urge. To be honest alcohol (whiskey mainly) was my drug of choice and I kicked it around for some years before quitting for good around 10 years ago.

Reply to Xtrix

I think smoking a lot of weed made me a Heideggerian for a while

Deeper experiences with shrooms and the like suggested to me that they could be used to justify or anchor any belief to anything you may want to believe is true.

Which can be misleading. But if it helps you deal with stuff, or gives you insight, then that's good.

I forgot about Viagra and such. I've yet to try any of those ED meds. I don't have ED, but I know that many take them anyway. I suppose as I get older it'll be an inevitable experience. When it comes to sex, though, my experiences have been very different from what others claim. Especially with MDMA. If I were to give any advice in that department, it would probably be alcohol or marijuana, or both. Maybe some amphetamines if one needs energy.

Quoting Manuel

I think smoking a lot of weed made me a Heideggerian for a while

:lol:

I can see that, I suppose.

Quoting Xtrix

As far as music goes while under the infleunce, I once was on ecstasy and high on marijuana, and listened to one of Bach's fugues; nearly lost my mind.

That reminds me, the only real time I have enjoyed weed was listening to The Beatles in an Australian rainforest on a Walkman 30 years ago. Sergeant Pepper's. I'm not even a fan of The Beatles, but at 2am that summer morning, it sounded like genius transfigured and the afterglow haunted me for days.

Quoting Tom Storm

I'm not even a fan of The Beatles

Really? Ah, I still love the Beatles. It's cliched, because of all that's been written about them and their general iconic stature, but it's true. Glad you were able to appreciate them at least once.

Reply to Xtrix
I'm glad that you appreciated Sgt Pepper album and it is so psychedelic. The album cover is important too, with all the people on it and Carl Jung is even there in the group picture.

Quoting Xtrix

Really? Ah, I still love the Beatles. It's cliched, because of all that's been written about them and their general iconic stature, but it's true. Glad you were able to appreciate them at least once.

I don't hate them, they just never moved me. But I'm not fan of pop or rock music in general. I know almost nothing of my own generation's music except what I was exposed to by osmosis (films, advertisements, etc).

Quoting Jack Cummins

and Carl Jung is even there in the group picture.

Yep and Aleister Crowley...

Quoting Xtrix

What's an IPA?

India Pale Ale, a pale ale made with extra hops/malt and consequently a higher alcohol level than regular beer. Good stuff.

Quoting Tom Storm

I don't hate them, they just never moved me. But I'm not fan of pop or rock music in general. I know almost nothing of my own generation's music except what I was exposed to by osmosis (films, advertisements, etc).

You're probably the better for it. Still, I'm definitely an apologist for (some) popular music.

For me I see them as just an entertainment and if anything they slow down a person's progression because they get too caught up in the amazement of the experience and don't actually get anything fundamentally "done" so to speak.

And I'm at a place in my life where I desire having a clean clear mind more then anything and so if I take something that alters my state of being i actually get frustrated

I've used weed too many times to count, mushrooms on maybe a dozen occasions, once as much as 10 dried grams (don't remember the peak at all and found it surprising that I was finding myself as a human with a name while coming down), LSD a handful of times, morning glories via a cold water extraction maybe ten times, and salvia divinorum dozens of times. I've been addicted to caffeine, ephedrine, alcohol, and tobacco. I also experienced nitrous oxide in the dentist's chair as a kid (my first altered state!), and anaesthetics a few times with surgeries (altered state during brief transitions). I also had a few rounds of prescription opioids.

I am ambivalent about weed. It is interesting, but tends to make me paranoid or often sad and overly nostalgic. The temporary short-term memory impairment is really disorienting and limits its usefulness. Weed always makes me feel guilty, like I am doing something to myself and my mind that I shouldn't be doing.

Psychedelics gave me some of the most important and amazing experiences of my life, but also led to a serious three day psychotic break once (from a combination of LSD, sleep deprivation, and holotropic breathing) in which I thought I was God, shaved my head skin-bald, almost hurt myself in a hundred ways, and embarrassed myself substantially.

I went to something like Heaven once on morning glories (carefully prepared) while listening to Mozart's Requiem on headphones early in the morning with sunlight filtering through my closed eyelids. That was the most beauty and joy I've ever known. Profound! I also experienced the most bleak and dark state I've ever known with morning glories once.

Salvia is the weirdest and most radical thing I've ever experienced. 16 years later, I still puzzle over what I experienced on it. I had many experiences in which it seemed like I was switching to the perspective of someone else in the past, living an alternate life scenario, a very mundane and believable situation, and strangely always before my own lifetime, and usually in an agricultural setting. I even saw a big wall gridded with portals into these seeming alternate lives. When I approached one, I became enveloped in that identity for a bit and felt the feelings of that person. It was a bit like Being John Malkovitch. Weird!

I haven't done psychedelics in 15 years or so.

I am not sure if drugs have been good or bad for me overall. It is hard to know how I would be if I had never used them. I wonder sometimes if I am a bit scarred and less functional because of them. Certainly though, it was in my nature to explore them. I did get burned a bit though, perhaps like Icarus. I even seriously sunburned my newly bald head while trying to fly while psychotic that time, so much so that my scalp was oozing afterward.

I've long wanted to try DMT, 5-meo-DMT, MDMA, mescaline (peyote maybe), ayahuasca, and ketamine, but given that psychotic episode, I am not sure it is wise for me to experiment further. Probably a bad idea!

[quote=Xtrix]Does anyone find that drugs have led them to greater philosophical insights or clarity?[/quote]

I've come to the conclusion that no, drugs don't improve thinking - insights & clarity aren't enhanced in any way at all.

What do drugs do then?

We've all had occasions we've felt that are describable as a suspicion that "there's more to it than meets the eye"; a sensation of mystery, that there's more than reality is letting on. This intuition, this feeling of mystery is what drugs have an effect on, amplifying it to such a degree that one, at times, experiences a deep conviction that WYSiWYG is false when it comes to reality; it becomes difficult to distinguish this sense of mystery from there actually being a mystery from having solved the mystery. :grin:

Quoting Agent Smith

What do drugs do then?

To make life more bearable and/or for fun. Most people are not Aldous Huxley.

Quoting Tom Storm

To make life more bearable and/or for fun. Most people are not Aldous Huxley.

:up:

So, I have problems in life. I add one more to my list: drug addiction! Oddly, the drug dependence brings relief equivalent to having solved all my problems! Go figure! Fact is stranger than fiction!

Hedonism in full bloom!

Reply to Agent Smith Of course some people use drugs without developing addictions but it is a real risk - especially if that drug is crystal meth or heroin... Do you smoke cigarettes?

Quoting Tom Storm

Do you smoke cigarettes?

Occasional smoker since the 90s, chain smoker since 2011. One foot in the grave.

Reply to Agent Smith I used to smoke a couple of packs a day - loved it. Quit 15 years ago. I always found that those moments having a smoke on some back staircase, or on a balcony somewhere involved a kind of contemplative act and some fruitful ideas were born this way. Now I contemplate with cups of tea....

Quoting Tom Storm

Quit 15 years ago

Way to go! It doesn't look like I'll be able to quit anytime soon. It's kinda an interesting life for people like me (not really role model material if you know what I mean). Knowing that I don't have much time left keeps me on my toes and motivated. I just set a target for myself a few moments ago: Nirvana! :sweat:

Quoting MAYAEL

And I'm at a place in my life where I desire having a clean clear mind more then anything and so if I take something that alters my state of being i actually get frustrated

It really depends on what we deem "good" or "bad." What many may call "clean and clear" is actually an amalgam of unquestioned beliefs, values, and habits that embody themselves in "normal" behavior. Being briefly jarred from what we consider ordinary, "normal," etc., can be very beneficial indeed.

The line between "drugs" and "medicine" is a very thin one, too. I doubt very much you'd be against medicines.

In any case, I'd be careful about extrapolating from your own experiences to such a general degree.

Reply to Tom Storm

Check out Thelonious Monk, Yusef Lateef and Rahsaan Roland Kirk. Miles Davis of course.

Quoting Xtrix

I find sugar the most addictive and alcohol the least useful.

You can douse somebody with alcohol and set them on fire. The fire won't last long, about the same amount of time as any dish that they sat aflame in an authentic Greek restaurant, and the person won't suffer serious burns, only will lose his eyebrows and chest hair. And he or she will have a lifetime of fun regaling this story to the uninitiated.

There must have been smoke, for me, for any kind of drug but for alcohol, which I rather like smokey as well. Smoked tobacco far too much, but that was in the past. I miss pipe smoking; tobacco, I mean, though pipes were otherwise useful as well. I always wanted to meet the Peyote Man, but it seems projectile vomiting is required for a meeting with him, and I do like to appear insouciant when introduced to anyone. I can't think of a way to give that appearance while vomiting.

Quoting Ciceronianus

I do like to appear insouciant when introduced to anyone. I can't think of a way to give that appearance while vomiting.

:lol:

The water pipe or 'nargile', is my tipple of choice. I have a nice one at home which I use with Turkish double apple tobacco or with Syrian lemon mint. It is very mild compared to the stuff mentioned here. Those, for me, I found not to be conducive for thinking, but the water pipe aids in concentration and when reading I tend to stop every paragraph to note new ideas down. Purely the large quantities of nicotine I guess for an otherwise non-smoker, but it works.

Reply to Ciceronianus :up:

I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, or even cuss. My only vice is lying.

I used to smoke weed fairly often many years ago. The best thoughts I got from it was when I stopped smoking it after days of abuse. The ‘wakeful’ feeling of stopping after short burst of excessive use were quite profound.

When people talk of cannabis as being ‘inspiring’ are just fooling themselves. It makes you feel like you have a ‘new’ thought but if you’d been sober you can be pretty sure the thought would’ve been FAR better. Maybe there is something to say for ‘opening a door’ to a different perspective? There are better drugs to take. Psychedelics are probably the most beneficial as well as being potentially the most dangerous.

Reply to Xtrix
>>>It really depends on what we deem "good" or "bad." What many may call "clean and clear" is actually an amalgam of unquestioned beliefs, values, and habits that embody themselves in "normal" behavior. Being briefly jarred from what we consider ordinary, "normal," etc., can be very beneficial indeed.

The line between "drugs" and "medicine" is a very thin one, too. I doubt very much you'd be against medicines.

In any case, I'd be careful about extrapolating from your own experiences to such a general degree<<<



? Well generally speaking extrapolating from your own experiences is much better than copying somebody else's extrapolations from their experiences which is what most people tend to do these days as opposed to experiencing a thing themselves and then rendering their own conclusion

so although you see it as unwise and perhaps dangerous to do I see it is safer than the norm that people tend to rely on which is pseudo-knowledge at best.

And I was referring to drugs that alter a persons state of mind aka "get you high"

I've had my fair share of those in the past and do not desire to escape reality using any of them anytime soon
Because I'm at a point in my life where having a clear mind and experiencing life free of influence is all the drug I want .
I guess you could say I appreciate life, or that I'm "high on life" although I don't experience an abundance of joy or happiness , I suppose the most accurate emotional state I could lable it with would probably be Nirvana or one of those other eastern impossible to obtain follow the guru but never quit reach it type states
? .