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Who am 'I'?

Jack Cummins November 30, 2021 at 18:16 8300 views 93 comments
The term 'I' may be the point of subjectivity but it may not be identical to the self. That is because it is more of an observer, as in Descartes' perception of, 'I think, therefore I am '. But, it is possible to ask what is'I' in the sense of it being the cohesive centre of experiences and it appears to exist throughout life, as the central focus in human identity. I wonder why does each of have an 'I' as an aspect of consciousness, or self consciousness? Are human beings the only living beings with a sense of 'I'?

Comments (93)

Gnomon November 30, 2021 at 18:31 #625944
Quoting Jack Cummins
I wonder why does each of have an 'I' as an aspect of consciousness, or self consciousness? Are human beings the only living beings with a sense of 'I'?

FWIW, here's my take on the self-concept, from the perspective of Enformationism theory. The Self is not a Real thing, in the sense of a ghost, but it is an Ideal concept. As such, it is as useful as your mental model of the Real World, which according to Kant is not the ding an sich. We can't ask animals if they have a sense of self, but like humans, they act as-if they do. :cool:


Self/Soul :
[i]The brain can create the image of a fictional person (the Self) to represent its own perspective in dealings with other things and persons.
1. This imaginary Me is a low-resolution construct abstracted from the complex web of inter-relationships that actually form the human body, brain, mind, DNA, and social networks in the context of a vast universe.
2. In the Enformationism worldview, only G*D could know yourself objectively in complete detail as the mathematical definition of You. That formula is equivalent to your Self/Soul.
3. Because of the fanciful & magical connotations of the traditional definition for "Soul" (e.g. ghosts), Enformationism prefers the more practical term "Self".[/i]
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page18.html

Animal self consciousness :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness
Joshs November 30, 2021 at 18:34 #625947
Reply to Jack Cummins Good questions. There are not surprisingly many views on this subject in philosophy. In modern times, Hume was among the first to present the issue in a skeptical
context.

“ For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception…. If any one, upon serious and unprejudic'd reflection thinks he has a different notion of himself, I must confess I can reason no longer with him. All I can allow him is, that he may be in the right as well as I, and that we are essentially different in this particular. He may, perhaps, perceive something simple and continu'd, which he calls himself; tho' I am certain there is no such principle in me.”

Some argue that ‘I’ is synonymous with self, and self is constructed as a new self in every new moment of experience. Others go even further in a relativist direction, claiming that the ‘we’ comes before the self , which is socially constructed. Others suggest that consciousness always implies self-consciousness, and self-consciousness rests on a self that is immutable and accompanies all experiences of the world as a feeling, the feeling of what it’s like to be the unique self that one is. All animals that can be said to be conscious are self-conscious.

For my part, I believe the self is a comparison between my past and my present. The ‘I’ is not a persisting identity but an ongoing self-similarity. But there are different sorts of selves in different contexts. The notion of self that implies a distinction between individuals will arise only in those contexts where an awareness of others is prominent. In other situations, this sense of self will not be present. Instead, a sedimented background of habits and goals will mark the ‘self’ that maintains itself as an ongoing style or theme.
Kenosha Kid November 30, 2021 at 18:35 #625948
I doubt it. There are other social primates, for instance, and I think that 'I' is largely emergent from social interaction. But we don't know. That may not be a sufficient condition for self-hood. My feeling is that we should move toward an assumption of sentience where that is consistent with observation, rather than assume the opposite and validate cruelty.

As for what 'I' is... spit and you'll hit a new definition, but mine is along the Kierkegaard-to-Kahneman trajectory. It's the brain talking to itself about its environment. I am not you, because you're in my environment.
Joshs November 30, 2021 at 18:42 #625952
Reply to Kenosha Kid Quoting Kenosha Kid
It's the brain talking to itself about its environment. I am not you, because you're in my environment.


Unless you happen to be schizophrenic, in which case the I and you inhabit the same ‘person’. In this case, agency or lack thereof may be a better articulation of the ‘I’ than self vs environment.
Kenosha Kid November 30, 2021 at 18:46 #625957
Quoting Joshs
Unless you happen to be schizophrenic, in which case the I and you inhabit the same ‘person’.


The brain talking to itself about itself and girl will it give itself a piece of itself's brain talking to itself about itself and girl will it give itself a piece of itself's brain talking to itself about itself and girl will it give itself a piece of itself's :cry:
Jack Cummins November 30, 2021 at 19:26 #625982
Reply to Gnomon
Yes, the relationship between the construct of the self and the 'I' is not straightforward. It does seem to be an aspect of awareness arising in brain consciousness, but the 'I' is not simply the brain. The concept of I is probably used in different ways but the elusive sense of I is likely to have given rise to the idea of 'the ghost in the machine'.
Jack Cummins November 30, 2021 at 19:33 #625984
Reply to Joshs
I am not sure to what extent the idea of 'I' relates to self, ego consciousness, and it is likely that these constructs have changed so much in accordance with understanding of human beings. It is so bound up with the nature of identity, of connection to others and as cohesive sense of identity between past, present and future. As far as I know, most people retain the sense of being an 'I' in dreams too.
Jack Cummins November 30, 2021 at 19:40 #625987
Reply to Kenosha Kid
Definitely the sense of 'I' is partly learned within social environments. The whole distinction between the child and mother is recognised by psychologists as being central to ego integrity in development. 'I' and 'me' may be a bit different philosophically and psychologically because me may be as a point of reference while I is the starting point of subjectivity and sense of one 's own consciousness.
180 Proof November 30, 2021 at 19:48 #625993
Quoting Kenosha Kid
As for what 'I' is... spit and you'll hit a new definition, but mine is along the Kierkegaard-to-Kahneman trajectory. It's the brain talking to itself about its environment. I am not you, because you're in my environment.

:up:

Quoting Jack Cummins
The term 'I' may be the point of subjectivity but it may not be identical to the self.

It's only a self-reflexive indexical for claiming – declaring – first person (possessive) singular, discursive agency.

Jack Cummins November 30, 2021 at 19:55 #626000
Reply to 180 Proof
In that sense, it may be an emergent state of a way of organising consciousness. However, in some ways, it seems odd that each of us a sense of oneness within rather scattered aspects. Of course, in states of dissociation people lose their cohesive identity but, in most cases, each of us develops a coherent autobiographical 'I'. Only in unusual circumstances, this may fragment in some ways.
180 Proof November 30, 2021 at 20:07 #626006
Reply to Jack Cummins I think it is only an artifact of grammar, that is, each one of us using (verbal & nonverbal) language for socially orientating oneself (re: semiotics). This social orienting recursively shapes "consciousness". I'd like to avoid psychologism here and suggest that embodied continuity of memories generates – confabulates – the illusion of self-"identity" and therefore the loss, or "dissociation", of self-"identity" indicates neuropathology (hindering or completely incapacitating grammar-usage) rather than some noogenic, spiritual, or metaphysical disturbance in "consciousness" (as if it were a "reified essence" e.g. Cartesian / Platonic object).
Jack Cummins November 30, 2021 at 21:25 #626052
Reply to 180 Proof
So, do you think that the continuity of memories, often formulated as 'identity', is illusory? Surely, this would almost be supportive of the idea that consciousness is an illusion. That is because 'I' and consciousness may even be identical with I being a way of reference to the stream of consciousness itself.
Gnomon November 30, 2021 at 22:09 #626096
Quoting Jack Cummins
Yes, the relationship between the construct of the self and the 'I' is not straightforward. It does seem to be an aspect of awareness arising in brain consciousness, but the 'I' is not simply the brain. The concept of I is probably used in different ways but the elusive sense of I is likely to have given rise to the idea of 'the ghost in the machine'.

Apparently, you think of "I" as something different from the psychological Ego, or Self-Consciousness. I agree that the Self-image is not simply the physical brain. But it is an imaginary creation of the brain. That's why I place the Self under the categorical heading of Meta-Physical. But I don't view it as a Soul or Ghost that can run around outside the body-brain complex. The link below is a discussion of Terrence Deacon and Jeremy Sherman's notion of Causal Absence and human Agency to explain the sense of an immaterial Ghost in a biological Machine.. :smile:


The Ghost in the Organism :
So Sherman chose to expand upon the allied notions of "Selves" and "Aims" as meta-physical agents in physical reality.
http://bothandblog3.enformationism.info/page20.html
180 Proof November 30, 2021 at 22:17 #626106
Reply to Jack Cummins "Consciousness" is phenomenal awareness of mind. Mind(ing) tracks and resolves 'discontinuities' between memories & expections or expections & predictions in order to adaptively coordinate behavior with(in) social / natural environment(s). "Self-identity" is confabulated (via sub-cognitive operant conditioning of "theory of mind") from the embodied continuity of memories. "Consciousness", I surmise, is a more peripheral, higher level (emergent) process than the deeper, more core-like "self-identity" process in human cognition., and so I do not equate or conflate them (vide A. Damasio, T. Metzinger)
Paine December 01, 2021 at 01:38 #626203
Quoting Jack Cummins
So, do you think that the continuity of memories, often formulated as 'identity', is illusory?


I don't know if is an illusion or not. Our condition is especially good at fusing experiences with accounts given about them. A thoroughly skeptical point of view does not start from a more objective point of view, free from this problem of singular perception. The view requires accepting our experience is outside of what is really going on.

And that seems unlikely. Why would such a condition be more possible than others?

TheMadFool December 01, 2021 at 06:39 #626260
Quoting Jack Cummins
'I'


It all depends on how you look at it.

The most well-known philosophy that rejects the reality of a self is Buddhism but do keep an eye on how Buddhists define the I in particular and everything else in general: in Gautama's view, ontology is pointless/meaningless if not eternal (the anicca-anatta duo). From such a perspective, true, there's no I for it ceases to be at death.

However, a less demanding or more relaxed definition of the self - one that allows for its dissolution when we perish - admits of the existence of an I albeit only as long as we draw breath.

TheMadFool December 01, 2021 at 06:40 #626261
Quoting Gnomon
This imaginary Me is a low-resolution construct abstracted from the complex web of inter-relationships


:up: Convenient fiction?
Kenosha Kid December 01, 2021 at 09:10 #626284
Reply to Jack Cummins There's theory of mind too, which completes the picture: being able to model the subjective experiences, knowledge, situation of others, which is social behaviour that plays a part in me distinguishing I from You. Prior to that, the perceived distinction does seem blurred.

Quoting 180 Proof
I'd like to avoid psychologism here and suggest that embodied continuity of memories generates – confabulates – the illusion of self-"identity" and therefore the loss, or "dissociation", of self-"identity" indicates neuropathology (hindering or completely incapacitating grammar-usage)


:up:

Or actual memory impairment, e.g. can still narrate an autobiography but all the elements are missing/false.
Mww December 01, 2021 at 12:13 #626315
Reply to Jack Cummins

Who am “I”.

....which reduces to nothing more than a metaphysical object querying itself.

I can say that, express it objectively, because “I” thought it up.

Not much point in asking about that for which the answer is contained in the question.
180 Proof December 01, 2021 at 15:35 #626347
Reply to Jack Cummins Reply to TheMadFool Reply to Gnomon

A brain does not perceive itself to be a brain. This is due to it lacking internal sensory inputs (re: medial neglect ... e.g. viewed only from one end, a spring coil seems merely a circle). In other words, brain functioning is transparent to its own functioning. Thus, throughout its life a brain tells itself (and other brains) stories in the form of answers to the question "Who am I?" updated episodically from lived experience. In fact, "you" are – no more a brain than a video game avatar is a player – just a shadow dancing on a cave (skull) wall.
Kenosha Kid December 01, 2021 at 15:40 #626349
Reply to 180 Proof Plato's cave of skulls. I like! And yeah, a correction (already correct in Kierkegaard):

Quoting Kenosha Kid
It's the brain's conversation with itself about its environment.


TheMadFool December 01, 2021 at 15:52 #626352
Quoting 180 Proof
A brain does not perceive itself to be a brain.


The single most important line in your post. A brain fails to recognize itself even when all the evidence points to that simple truth: I/self = brain.

Why do you suppose this happens?

It's kinda like mirrored-self misidentification, not an exact match but good enough for government work if you know what I mean.

It is a delusion nonetheless.
180 Proof December 01, 2021 at 16:31 #626364
Quoting TheMadFool
Why do you suppose this happens?

If you'd read "the single most important line" in my post you wouldn't need to ask.

I/self = brain.

:roll:
TheMadFool December 01, 2021 at 16:55 #626371
Reply to 180 Proof What's wrong?

I am that which thinks, the brain is that which thinks. Thus, I am the brain!

That means if I'm unable to, or if I'm unwilling to, accept the argument above, either I'm suffering from a delusion or there's a good reason why I reject the argument.

Which is it? Please elaborate. Thanks.
180 Proof December 01, 2021 at 16:58 #626372
Quoting TheMadFool
I am that which thinks, the brain is that which thinks. Thus, I am the brain!

Hasty generalizations (at least).

Please elaborate.

:point: Reply to 180 Proof


TheMadFool December 01, 2021 at 17:03 #626375
Quoting 180 Proof
Hasty generalizations (at least).


Where? I haven't made any generalizations unless you mean to imply that there are some among us who have a nonphysical self, something other than our trusty wetware.
Gnomon December 01, 2021 at 17:42 #626393
Quoting TheMadFool
:up: Convenient fiction?

Yes. Without that fictional Self, we would not know where we fit into the story of Life. We are the stars of our own show, playing in the Cartesian Theater. :smile:
Gnomon December 01, 2021 at 17:57 #626397
Quoting 180 Proof
A brain does not perceive itself to be a brain.

That's true. A brain doesn't have internal sense organs to make a physical sense of itself (neuronal pattern). But it does have a mind, to create a self-image, which is our meta-physical sense of self. Douglas Hofstadter refers to that internal feedback as a "strange loop". :cool:


I Am a Strange Loop :
[i]Strange Loop says that each of us is a point of view, and one's perspective – indeed our most intimate subjectivity – can exist in other substrates, outside of the brain. No, Hofstadter hasn't gone mystical, religious, or superstitious; but he has pushed the boundaries of science by thinking poetically.
Book by Douglas Hofstadter[/i]
https://philosophynow.org/issues/78/I_Am_A_Strange_Loop_by_Douglas_Hofstadter

A strange loop is a cyclic structure that goes through several levels in a hierarchical system. It arises when, by moving only upwards or downwards through the system, one finds oneself back where one started. Strange loops may involve self-reference and paradox.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop

User image

Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 13:56 #626776
Reply to Gnomon
Hofstadter's idea of the 'strange loop' as a means of self reference in consciousness is fascinating. So, thanks for sharing that as part of the nature of how consciousness of the 'I' comes into being for human beings.
Cartuna December 02, 2021 at 15:47 #626826
Quoting Gnomon
That's true. A brain doesn't have internal sense organs to make a physical sense of itself (neuronal pattern).


But it can sense other brains by taking looking at them from the outside in other people. Or taking them out of bodies and touching them. Working brains can even touch themselves, and look at themselves in the mirror. What they can't make sense of is the conscious experiences it gives to it's possessor. Sstrange loops won't help to explain the perception of the I. If you consider the I to be the body the brain is in, a certain level of self representation is needed to be aware of the I. If you consider the brain as part of the I and materialisticly only, which it undetachable is, but only insofar the inside of matter is concerned, strange loops become apparent. The notion of the brain being structured dynamical material is bound to give rise to such loops, as the material brain can contain structures simulating other structures but never the structure that does the simulating. Such loops though don't have any impact on the perception of the I or consciousness.
180 Proof December 02, 2021 at 15:57 #626828
Quoting 180 Proof
I wonder to what extent the "I' is able to reflect upon it itself?
— Jack Cummins

It's a 'strange loop', or self-referential tangled hierarchical system (vide Douglas Hofstadter ... or Thomas Metzinger); the extent of self-reflection, I suspect, corresponds to the limits of the semiotic or symbolic systems available to cognition.


TheMadFool December 02, 2021 at 16:09 #626833
Quoting Gnomon
Convenient fiction?
— TheMadFool
Yes. Without that fictional Self, we would not know where we fit into the story of Life. We are the stars of our own show, playing in the Cartesian Theater. :smile:


It's my suspicion that the apparent lack of a definitive referent for the "I" is more about hope mixed with fantasy than anything truly substantive in the sense there's a real problem. If there is an issue it's death and our denial of that fact.
TheMadFool December 02, 2021 at 16:11 #626834
Quoting 180 Proof
It's a 'strange loop', or self-referential tangled hierarchical system (vide Douglas Hofstadter ... or Thomas Metzinger); the extent of self-reflection, I suspect, corresponds to the limits of the semiotic or symbolic systems available to cognition.


:up: On target.
Cartuna December 02, 2021 at 16:53 #626844
Reply to 180 Proof

The brain is simply incapable of total self reflection. You can reflect your finger, your eye, your whole front (your back is harder) your visual system, two neurons, a potential running on neurons, etc. You can reflect the reflection. But with what use? You could reflect the reflection of the reflection reflected in the reflected reflection, but you will always be unable to reflect the total reflection, as it has to contain itself (Droste chocolate), which is impossible. The biggest reflection can never be reflected, since there is no reflecting surface still available. It's the question also what you wanna reflect. The reflection of a functioning neuron can be detailed as you like. But reflecting the neurons involved in the reflection is impossible.
Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 18:10 #626867
Reply to TheMadFool
The idea of the 'fictional self' may be so essential to human identity because the it is bound up with the autobiographical development of the 'I', which probably filters out a lot of information and chooses which memories to hold on to. The 'I' is likely to come with essential biases, which may be connected with its own preservation and importance.
Gnomon December 02, 2021 at 18:13 #626869
Quoting Cartuna
Sstrange loops won't help to explain the perception of the I.

The notion of a "strange loop" is a metaphor, not a mechanical diagram. When you "see" another person, it's direct perception. When you see yourself in a mirror it's reflected perception. But, when you see yourself in your mind, it's a conception : a meta-physical reflection. The metaphorical loop begins from your internal brain, goes out into the world, then loops back to take a "selfie" without a camera or phone. In some cases, we call it "insight". :cool:

Self reflection is like looking into a mirror and describing what you see.
User image
Cartuna December 02, 2021 at 18:51 #626883
Quoting Gnomon
The metaphorical loop begins from your internal brain, goes out into the world,


I don't think this is what strange loops are. How can a conception go out in the world? It's the conception that loops internally. The conception conceptualized. Of which a conception can be made. Conceptions in conceptions in conceptions,.... Hofstadter gave the example of the image of a video camera on TV being framed by the video camera. An array of images in images develops. I have no idea what this has to do with consciousness. It's just a nice thing to play with.



Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 19:35 #626914
Reply to Cartuna
You are probably right to interpret the 'strange loop' as being based on metaphor, but, in a way all thinking and construction of models is based on words and images.
Cartuna December 02, 2021 at 19:40 #626916
Quoting Jack Cummins
You are probably right to interpret the 'strange loop' as being based on metaphor, but, in a way all thinking and construction of models is based on words and images.


I don't think it's a metaphor. It's a literal loop. Of thoughts or brain structures. A thought about a thought about a thought. Nested thoughts. Nested structures.
180 Proof December 02, 2021 at 19:53 #626926
Reply to Cartuna
In part that is why I use "self-reference" (cognition) instead of "reflection" (meta-cognition) to describe how the brain generates – confabulates – "the I".
Quoting Cartuna
It's the conception that loops internally. The conception conceptualized. Of which a conception can be made. Conceptions in conceptions in conceptions,....

Quoting Cartuna
Nested thoughts. Nested structures.

:up:
Cartuna December 02, 2021 at 20:01 #626932
Reply to 180 Proof

For self reference there has to be a self in the first place. The first self is the body. Telling you that I did something is just mentally conveying you the image of me doing something, like now. Speaking with myself is just me speaking with a mental image of me. If I feel depressed it's the body that feels depressed.
180 Proof December 02, 2021 at 20:21 #626943
Reply to Cartuna Why ditto me? What point are you making that I've not made already?
Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 21:18 #626976
Reply to Cartuna
It is hard to know where metaphors end and the literal exists, especially in terms of the self and the fictions about this construct. In many ways, it may that human beings can fabricate all kinds of meanings behind the self and 'I', even on a narcissistic level, in trying to understand and live with ego consciousness. We could ask what is ego consciousness and, in particular what is 'ego' because that that term in itself has various psychoanalytic meanings ranging from the psychoanalytic to the philosophy of Stirner on ego. That may be where the nature of self becomes so complex and beyond psychology, into the nature of the philosophy of identity.
Cartuna December 02, 2021 at 21:38 #626982
Reply to 180 Proof

I had the impression you called the I (so me too) a confabulation.
Cartuna December 02, 2021 at 21:51 #626987
Reply to Jack Cummins

If I look at you it's your body that I see. Dressed and spectacled but that's who I think you are. You experience more or less the same as me, act, have values, thoughts, feelings, etc. These are all part of your inside world but your body brings these stuff in practice. You can feel pain, even between the ears, like me. The body, so you, or me, or anyone, can live thanks to the brain. You hear or see thoughts and dreams, So it's not you thinking, but you noticing.
Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 21:56 #626988
Reply to Cartuna
I wonder what would happen if it was concluded that 'I' is a complete illusion and whether as a matter of language it would even be possible to go beyond the possibility of the construct of 'I'. Would it help, or be meaningless in relation to how a person conceives identity in relation to the world and others?

Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 22:05 #626998
Reply to Cartuna
I think that our posts may have been written at the same time. In relation to your latter post, one question which I wonder about is inner and outer aspects of the self, and how the 'I' is often about the meaning on an internal level, although it may be that splitting between the inner and the outer may be unhelpful and, it may be one of the problems going back to Descartes. The division between inner and outer may be real in some ways, but, in other respects it may be illusory and the sense of the 'I' may be important in dealing with the paradoxes of inner and outer aspects of human experience.
john27 December 02, 2021 at 22:37 #627019
Reply to Jack Cummins

I would say that I is simply however you see yourself to be in that moment. Perhaps, in some scenario it would be much more efficient to describe yourself as a set of particles. Poof. There becomes I.

In other terms, I is like a joke that needs context to be understood.
Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 22:53 #627035
Reply to john27
Yes, I can even see myself as a set of particles and how the ''I' may fragment at times. I am not entirely sure how beneficial the 'I' consciousness is, although most people don't wish to have a 'jelly' self. Perhaps, the ability to see and think about varying constructs of ego consciousness and self may be most helpful, although it may be that identity has a certain amount of 'fragility' and can easily be torn asunder.

Personal identity may be interconnected with a sense of meaning in life and even though my thread is called 'Who am 'I' is with reference to the concept of 'I', this thread topic may go back to a youth club event which I went to as an adolescent, titled 'Who am I?' However, this was not about particles but about finding oneself in the social world.
john27 December 02, 2021 at 23:05 #627048
Reply to Jack Cummins

Depends on who you want to be.

I find that a barbaric rationality, devoid of any logic or profound reasonings is actually the best weapon for attacking these sort of questions.

Keeps the response meaningful and simple. Something you can get behind.
Jack Cummins December 02, 2021 at 23:34 #627067
Reply to john27
It may come down to how we define ourselves, which may have profound implications for who or what we may become, metaphysically, and as social beings.
john27 December 02, 2021 at 23:36 #627069
Reply to Jack Cummins

I don't exactly understand the metaphysical implications of defining yourself, but I'm inclined to agree.
Gnomon December 02, 2021 at 23:43 #627074
Quoting Cartuna
I don't think this is what strange loops are. How can a conception go out in the world? It's the conception that loops internally. The conception conceptualized.

Apparently, you're having difficulty with my metaphorical language. The ability to imagine ideas as-if they are real is a faculty limited to animals with rational minds : e.g. homo sapiens. A concept is not a physical object, but an ideal mental (meta-physical) subject. So, it can perform feats that are impossible for physical things ; just as your avatar in a video game can throw Chi (Qi) from its hands as-if it was a flame-thrower.

For a more philosophical example, a self-concept can metaphorically "go out into the world", then turn around and look back at itself. But, if you prefer to imagine the self-concept as some mysterious "thing" rotating inside the brain, that's OK with me. It's just another metaphor, though. Unless, you have some empirical knowledge of what kind of material that looping "thing" is made of. :smile:

Subjectivity in a philosophical context has to do with a lack of objective reality.
Note -- the Subject is your imaginary self (Latin - ego ; self ; "I"), not your physical body (Latin - Id ; Greek - soma).

Ego :
[i]1. the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
2. (in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.[/i]

Note : Reasoning is thinking without actually doing. Once you have reasoned an appropriate behavior, you can safely perform the action in the real word. When reasoning, you can metaphorically project yourself out into the world to see what the results of that action might be. AFAIK, there is no actual "thing" that gets projected. or "loops internally".

Mirror Image vs Self Image :
User image
john27 December 03, 2021 at 00:39 #627089
Reply to Gnomon

That image freaks me out.
Cartuna December 03, 2021 at 03:48 #627146
QReply to Gnomon

You consider the ego as a mental thing. I don't. The ego is the body mediating between the non-physical mind and the physical world. So the ego is can look in the mirror and see the mirror reflection of itself (first photograph of the blond lady in blue), while others see the right image. In the mirror I see mmyself waving my left hand, while you see me waving my right. I can't split my body to step outside of it and look at myself turning around, like in that picture of a guy you posted who takes of his face, turnes it around, and looks at what's left (@john27 is freaked out by the blond mirror twin, but I'm freaked out by the image of that guy, taking your face off gives me the creeps, no matter if it's happening metaphorically).

So the strange loop is a metaphorical loop, but at the same time it has a material counterpart in the brain. Looking at yoursel mentally will lead to inwardly radiating droste effects. If you look mentally to your mind, you have to include the mental image itself, leading to a new image which must be included again, which leads to a new image, which has to be included again, etc. A strange loop. This loop has a material counterpart. Which means that if you look at the brain materialistically, there are patterns of spike potentials running on your neoron network which litterally show the droste effect. A pattern in a pattern in a patter. From a small one, to larger ones.

TheMadFool December 03, 2021 at 05:03 #627175
Quoting Jack Cummins
The idea of the 'fictional self' may be so essential to human identity because the it is bound up with the autobiographical development of the 'I', which probably filters out a lot of information and chooses which memories to hold on to. The 'I' is likely to come with essential biases, which may be connected with its own preservation and importance.


1. Ship of Theseus

2. Wittgenstein's rope analogy.

Identity is a sequence of overlapping stages and that's why we feel that there's some kind of connection/continuity between, say, the me of today and the me of tomorrow (correct my English please). It depends then, doesn't it?, on what we're looking at, the similarities or the differences. If we consider both, what emerges is a fuzzy sense of self - now you see it, now you don't.

Mp202020 December 03, 2021 at 05:30 #627188
Reply to 180 Proof I recommend looking into Rupert Spira’s teachings. Ultimately, “I” is something to be demarcated from the idea of one’s self, which is simply a mental construct created by the mind. “I” is rather pure awareness, prior to the concepts our mind attempts to impute onto it. “I” (awareness) does not have a sense of self, it is simply pure subjectivity.
TheMadFool December 03, 2021 at 05:58 #627213
Reply to Gnomon I like the images you post. I wish we could do this for all of philosophy. Pictures have a certain quality to them that allows them to get a point across in ways that words somehow can't.

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

Some, I'm told, think in pictures/images. An Artistic turn, à la the so-called linguistic turn, in philosophy is a long overdue project. :grin:
180 Proof December 03, 2021 at 08:15 #627246
Reply to Mp202020 Thanks. Likewise, I recommend The Ego Tunnel by Thomas Metzinger (or I Am a Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstadter). :point: Reply to 180 Proof :point: Reply to 180 Proof
TheMadFool December 03, 2021 at 09:07 #627256
Quoting Gnomon
objective


I can't tell the difference between mass delusions/hallucinations and objectivity.
Cuthbert December 03, 2021 at 11:16 #627268
Since we and our acquaintances and credit companies know exactly who we are outside the philosophy lab, why do we struggle with the question when we step inside?

Quoting TheMadFool
I can't tell the difference between mass delusions/hallucinations and objectivity.


Mass delusion is when all your followers kill themselves, expecting the world to end as you told them. Objectivity is when you find out who your cell-mate is.

TheMadFool December 03, 2021 at 12:41 #627300
Quoting Cuthbert
Mass delusion is when all your followers kill themselves, expecting the world to end as you told them. Objectivity is when you find out who your cell-mate is.


:lol: So it would seem...so it would seem...
Gnomon December 03, 2021 at 17:47 #627386
Quoting john27
That image freaks me out.

A lot of people feel that something is wrong with their face in photographs, because they are more accustomed to seeing a reversed image in a mirror. For some, it gives them a creepy feeling of looking at a clone or doppelganger. :gasp:
Gnomon December 04, 2021 at 00:27 #627524
Quoting Cartuna
You consider the ego as a mental thing. I don't. . . .
. . . . .So the strange loop is a metaphorical loop, but at the same time it has a material counterpart in the brain. Looking at yoursel mentally will lead to inwardly radiating droste effects.

Yes. Ideal metaphors usually have some concrete counterpart in the real world that it refers to as a crude approximation of the abstraction in the mind. That's how we communicate images in our minds to other minds. They can look at the concrete object and form an approximate idea of what I'm imagining. However, if I show them a brain "gyrus" (something that loops back on itself) they won't understand what I mean by "self" or "ego" or "i".

The metaphorical object is not the mental image, but merely has some essential similarity : e.g. a physical thing that loops back on itself to represent by analogy the concept of a mind looking back at itself.. The Ego is an especially difficult notion of metaphorize in concrete terms :cool:

Analogy :
1. An analogy is a comparison made to show how two different things are similar, especially in limited ways.

Mind/Brain problem in Psychology and Philosophy :
https://www.simplypsychology.org/mindbodydebate.html

Apparently, you think of the Ego as a material object. Where is the Ego in this picture of a "physical thing"? Hint : there are lots of "strange loops" (gyri) in the picture. :joke:
User image

THE BALLOON IS NOT THE EGO
User image

This image is not the pipe
User image
Gnomon December 04, 2021 at 00:31 #627526
Quoting TheMadFool
?Gnomon
I like the images you post. I wish we could do this for all of philosophy. Pictures have a certain quality to them that allows them to get a point across in ways that words somehow can't.

Yes. A picture is worth a thousand philosophical metaphors. :smile:

User image
Gnomon December 04, 2021 at 01:00 #627536
Quoting TheMadFool
I can't tell the difference between mass delusions/hallucinations and objectivity.

The only difference is in the metaphorical interpretation of the mental image : i.e. what it means to you.
Unfortunately, abstract mental images & metaphors are too easy to mis-interpret, due mainly to pre-conceptions. So who deludes who? :chin:

[i]But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion[/i]
___Moody Blues, Late Lament


Cartuna December 04, 2021 at 01:07 #627538
Reply to Gnomon

The image is not the ego indeed. If I think about myself I don't see myself like I see other people. I think about situations as I saw them when I did the thing I was doing (i perspective). Thinking about Eddy Murphy I see him talking to me or others. It seems pretty unnatural to look at yourself from the outside (like taking your face off and turn it towards you.. A mirror helps but mirror. Magritte has painted some nice philosophical stuff. Like that man seeing his back in the mirror. Seeing yourself from the back can only be done wìth video. :smile:
Cartuna December 04, 2021 at 01:12 #627539
Quoting Gnomon
Apparently, you think of the Ego as a material object. Where is the Ego in this picture of a "physical thing"? Hint : there are lots of "strange loops" (gyri) in the picture. :joke:


I think the ego is neither material neither mental. It lies at the boundary between them. So in a way it's both. Strange loops I see! :joke:
Gnomon December 04, 2021 at 01:50 #627558
Quoting Cartuna
I think the ego is neither material neither mental. It lies at the boundary between them. So in a way it's both. Strange loops I see!

Interesting! How would you describe that "strange" neither-here-nor-there "boundary" -- metaphorically, of course. That's the beauty of metaphors, they help us to form our own personal images of the imaginary objects in other minds. Sometimes, the communication solution is to assume that a coin has two sides that we can't see simultaneously, That ambiguity requires us to do some mental (metaphorical) flipping. :smile:

neither fish nor fowl :
[i]of indefinite character and difficult to identify or classify
to seem partly one thing and partly another,
not belonging to any suitable class or description.[/i]

NEITHER FOWL NOR BUNNY
User image
Cartuna December 04, 2021 at 02:04 #627562
Quoting Gnomon
That's the beauty of metaphors, they help us to form our own personal images of the imaginary objects in other minds.


:100:

I see it like a fuzzy sphere that can vibrate and take all kinds of forms. That fuzzy sphere contains mental stuff and around the sphere is material stuff. The inside takes stuff in from the outside. Untill it gets inside it was both matter and mental. No boundary yet. When arrived inside the sphere (you) it becomes part of the mental inside. Looking to the outside stuff, you look at the matter part of the unity. Inside you the matter gives rise to consciousness. And in between are you, the fuzzy sphere. :smile:
Gnomon December 04, 2021 at 02:06 #627563
Quoting Cartuna
Like that man seeing his back in the mirror. Seeing yourself from the back can only be done wìth video.

Or with mental imagination. :joke:

How the artist sees himself
User image
Cartuna December 04, 2021 at 02:10 #627566
Reply to Gnomon

Great post! That's the one! Weird stuff he painted. That's exactly why I like him. If thats a self portrait, how did he know what to paint? :razz:
Gnomon December 04, 2021 at 02:11 #627567
Quoting Cartuna
see it like a fuzzy sphere that can vibrate and take all kinds of forms.

Aggh! That mental image makes me dizzy. :gasp:

User image
Cartuna December 04, 2021 at 02:14 #627568
Reply to Gnomon

Whow! The afterimage freaks me out! Woooow! I meant a spherical shell for sure! :love:
Cartuna December 04, 2021 at 02:17 #627570
The hole inside grows!!! Djeeezus! What an image! Luvit!
Cartuna December 04, 2021 at 02:22 #627572
It's 3;30 here. I go to sleep. I wonder what I'll dream... Thanks for the nice conversation! Last question: are you the enformationist? Can remember reading a blog.
Gnomon December 04, 2021 at 03:42 #627591
Quoting Cartuna
Last question: are you the enformationist?

No. Someone else from another forum has borrowed that label. But Enformationism is the title of my worldview website. :smile:

Enformationism :
http://enformationism.info/enformationism.info/
TheMadFool December 04, 2021 at 05:01 #627606
Quoting Gnomon
Yes. A picture is worth a thousand philosophical metaphors.


:up:
TheMadFool December 04, 2021 at 05:32 #627612
@Gnomon

:monkey: :point: Me
TheMadFool December 04, 2021 at 14:42 #627711


WHOOOOOO AAAAAAAM IIIIIIIII?
Gregory December 05, 2021 at 02:10 #627929
Reply to Jack Cummins

It seems to me a sense of I is necessary for enjoyment. Is it a metaphysical substance? That doesn't matter. We are all made of of the truly free moments we have experienced and that karma (good and bad) gives you as much identity as anything could
Jack Cummins December 05, 2021 at 13:22 #628032
Reply to Gregory
You are quite right to speak of how a sense of'' I' is central to experiences, including the good and bad moments, because the ego consciousness is a central agent in interpretation of the events in life and, for human beings, it is the meaning of these which are essential, especially in the ongoing process of autobiographical narratives and the sense of one 's own 'story'.
Lyubomir Blazhev December 06, 2021 at 13:12 #628403
Human beings have been proven to not be the only living organism on planet earth that are self-conscious. There are other mammals, who we brutally torture and kill in the trillions per annum, who are self-conscious.


What is "I"? It's the mind. The mind that receives your bodily sensations in the form of vision, pain, sound and etc. and in about 50% of the population also engage in silent self-talk called thinking.

What is the mind? The mind is a process inside the biological machine called brain. It's very easy to prove this by looking at Alzheimer's plaque buildup in the brain which is positively correlated with a reduce in consciousness/mind. No brain cells, no consciousness, no mind.

How exactly the brain produces mind is so far explained by science as synaptic transmission between braincells, identical to a computing processor although science has a lot more to unravel, nevertheless, that's as close as we are to thoroughly explain what is "I" if we are using reason.


If we are not using reason, then we can chalk it to some magical universal, everlasting source of God, soul or whatever.

I am hoping against reason for the latter albeit I know I am most likely to be disappointed when I die.
khaled December 06, 2021 at 13:42 #628408
Reply to Jack Cummins In my experience "I" has no defined meaning. It is a great superpower of humans to be able to switch what they mean by themselves, and to recognize certain parts as "of them" or "alien". When someone scores a touchdown it's "all me baby" but when they murder someone it's all "the voices"

Quoting Jack Cummins
'I' in the sense of it being the cohesive centre of experiences and it appears to exist throughout life, as the central focus in human identity.


That's one use. Very rarely used though. For one, this use doesn't allow possessiveness. By this definition: "I own a car" makes no sense. Neither do most other uses. "I thought about X" also doesn't make sense by this definition, etc.

Quoting Jack Cummins
I wonder why does each of have an 'I' as an aspect of consciousness, or self consciousness? Are human beings the only living beings with a sense of 'I'?


By the definition of "I" you're using, you wouldn't know if each person has an "I" in the first place. Much less anything else.

I think open, closed, and empty individualism also ties into this topic.
Jack Cummins December 06, 2021 at 17:24 #628467
Reply to khaled
I think that your point about the idea of inner 'voices' is important because the 'I' may be experienced as a range of voices of thoughts although most people do not hear voices literally. But, maybe those who do even speak of hearing voices may be experiencing the fragmentation of the 'I'. So, psychosis may be related to difficulty in establishing a cohesive identity of subjective identity.

As far as understanding that other people have a sense of I is probably based on hearing others refer to themselves and their subjective experiences. It is also likely to be related to the development of theory of mind, in the sense of the individual developing understanding that other human beings have subjective realities similar to their own. In terms of individualism, it probably does come into it and in Western society there is so much emphasis on the self and people may develop identity with varying degrees of a sense of being part of a group, or as being a separate entity from others.
TheMadFool December 06, 2021 at 17:42 #628475
Reply to Jack Cummins Hi Jack.

Some say the I is imaginary like [math]i = \sqrt{-1}[/math] but then something extraordinary happens: the imaginary I has to realize that it's imaginary (not real). Isn't that like a hologram of a person finding out it's a hologram? An illusion coming to know it's an illusion. Basically a nonexistent thing discovering it doesn't exist. How does that work? Something smells fishy...Buddhism?
Jack Cummins December 06, 2021 at 18:35 #628496
Reply to TheMadFool
Definitely Buddhism, or its many writers, have a lot to say about ego consciousness and the way in which the 'I' can be seen as illusory in certain respects. This is probably most clear in mindfulness meditation. I have some limited experience of using these techniques and it is about being able to observe the flow of thoughts and, at this level, even the 'I' can be seen as a construct. It may be that the I needs to be seen partly as a construct, but on the other hand, without the 'I' there would be no identity as we know it. Each of us would have the inner experience of being like blobs of mind jelly.
TheMadFool December 07, 2021 at 05:26 #628695
Reply to Jack Cummins I think you're taking it just a tad bit too far. Good post nonetheless.
TheMadFool December 07, 2021 at 11:21 #628751
Reply to Jack Cummins

The I has to be unique.

In the real world, there are many Jack Cumminses but in TPF, there's only ONE :point: YOU!

An aside: Our world cannot be a simulation. Computers can't handle two/more people named Jack Cummins unless...the computers simulating the world are a notch above what we have today. This reminds me of Wittgenstein's language games and its relation, if such exists, to computer languages. The latter can't handle ambiguity i.e. if we name a variable (a word in language), that variable (word) can't be used for anything else. Buddhist Maya? :chin:
Jack Cummins December 09, 2021 at 07:17 #629440
Reply to TheMadFool
I guess that with regard to the unique parts of personal identity, a lot depends on the aspects which are most fundamental, including the genetic components and environmental factors. However, there is so much which comes down to subjective interpretations and meanings. In a way, each of has own sense of internal meanings and narrative stories, which comprise the whole nature of identity. I asked the question, 'Who am 'I', but this also is the 'Who am I? ', which Erik Erikson points to as being the essential part of identity and identity crisis, especially important in adolescence. The whole experience of exploration during adolescence is about experimentation, and even rebellion.

So, personal identity is about finding a unique path in life and links to the issue of 'Know Thyself' and authenticity. This involves the existential aspects of life choices. Also, it may be that one knows who one is more in retrospect than in an advance, because it may be that many of the acts which the person does may be spontaneous and may be different from the way they would have imagined they would have acted. So, while the question of the sense of identity involves the ongoing sense of becoming, this also involves assimilation of previous choices and integration of this as an ongoing fluid sense of the ''I' of existence.
I like sushi December 09, 2021 at 07:29 #629441
Reply to Jack Cummins The term ‘I’ is merely the verbal projection of yourself amongst other selves.

Such language as this (being used here) can be used in a way that seems cut off from any ‘other’ but in all seriousness this is an impossibility as we cannot actively use such language completely independent from how it has come to establish itself (ie. communication among and between persons).

Self has specific meanings specific psychological theories.

Language, and the terms used therein, are ‘actions’. The term ‘I’ is an action of referring to something just like ‘walking’ is the act of marking out another action (walking) without necessarily doing said action.

There are so many ways to get lost within terms. Be careful.
Jack Cummins December 09, 2021 at 16:24 #629516
Reply to I like sushi
Perhaps, it is worth getting lost in the terms at times and stepping into the murky areas of confusion. Perhaps, it may be worth taking risks, rather than being 'careful', because it may be that rethinking leads to new possibilities...
Agent Smith December 11, 2021 at 03:52 #630039
The other side of the coin :point: What is Change?