Happiness in the face of philosophical pessimism?
I’ll spare you the details of my history, but I’ve basically become a nihilist over the years. It’s not a true nihilism in the sense that I believe everything to be completely baseless. I do, for instance, believe in a universal morality. I think that evolution has crafted a more-or-less objective moral system where honesty and integrity are praised and dishonesty, etc. are decried. My problem is that I see almost everything as completely pointless and this has profoundly affected my happiness. I used to study endlessly, but now I don’t see any purpose to it. You could work your entire life only to make a scratch on the edifice, but you’ll surely be forgotten afterwards. Even if you weren’t, the universe itself has a lifespan, so everything in it will eventually be undone. I used to play the piano too, but somehow I’ve lost motivation to play when I view it through this lens of hopelessness.
A quote from Emil Cioran sums up my feelings nicely:
“Lucidity does not extirpate the desire to live—far from it, lucidity merely makes us unsuited to life.”
I make good money and can afford to do what I like, but there’s nothing I want. Anyway, I’m posting here because I’m hoping to get input from people who have been in a similar position and found some resolution.
A quote from Emil Cioran sums up my feelings nicely:
“Lucidity does not extirpate the desire to live—far from it, lucidity merely makes us unsuited to life.”
I make good money and can afford to do what I like, but there’s nothing I want. Anyway, I’m posting here because I’m hoping to get input from people who have been in a similar position and found some resolution.
Comments (97)
Hi Nicholas Mihaila. Welcome!
Pain always has a sneaky way of appearing bigger than it really is. There's much to say about this, but one of those is that pain and/or negative emotions do have more impact on our feeling of well being than what feeling of happiness can do. It sucks. But studies have shown this is so.
At the risk of sounding cliché, I'd say that what you're experiencing is an existential one. And yes, it eats into our motivation for the arts, and appreciation of the arts.
Unfortunately, there's no magic anything to use for it. Live in the now, I suppose. Don't be concerned about the future.
I like the Emil Cioran quote.
I have also said in my posts in the past that happiness shouldn't be the goal -- but equilibrium. Don't expect profound enlightenment, uncontained joy and excitement, euphoria, nirvana, or on-top-of-the-world experience. Just live in the now and maintain self-equilibrium.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
If everything is pointless and there is nothing you want, then why on earth are you working? Is working not pointless?
I don't know how you arrived 'where you are', but I don't think it is difficult to get there. One starts down a downhill path, and before long you are picking up speed, and in no time you have arrived at an impasse of pointlessness.
The point is: It has always been our human task to provide meaning; the universe doesn't provide it. Since you are working and making good money, you must be a fully functional person. Coming up with some positive thought is well within your operational capabilities. Step One is to stop staring into the abyss. There is nothing to get from it. Step Two is to wean yourself off the cycle of meaningless thinking.
The goal isn't some syrupy, candy-flavored fantasy. Rather, dry solid rock. A positive philosophy may not make you happy, but it will get you a lot farther than nihilism. There are whole libraries stocked with positive options.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
Do you want some input, or is there nothing you want?
If you pick a bunch of flowers for your love, she will not reject them because they will wilt and die in a few days. Au contraire, it is the ephemerality that makes them precious. Plastic flowers last much longer, but your love will not appreciate plastic flowers.
We are all like flowers, doomed to wither and be forgotten, but this does not make life meaningless - it would be meaningless if it lasted forever - but it is precious and meaningful because it is unique and fleeting.
But probably you cannot understand this, because you are too focussed on yourself and your own happiness and eternal fame and so on. You cannot find it there, because it lies in relationships with the world:-
Quoting Caldwell
That's what I'm trying to do. I'm currently in a cafe enjoying some coffee. The existential dread is like background noise, and the coffee tastes good. :)
Quoting Bitter Crank
To be fair, I did qualify my statement ("almost"). I work as a pediatric nurse and helping people is one of the only things that I still find worthwhile. I dropped out of college during my senior year as a chemical engineering student for this reason.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Very well put! As I'm currently finishing up crossing items off my list of things that make me unhappy, a gradual shift in my thinking (or focus rather) seems to be the next logical step.
Quoting unenlightened
Yes, if interpreted literally, that's a contradiction. I think you know what I mean though.
Quoting unenlightened
I've given a lot of thought to the idea that ephemerality increases the value of things. I don't subscribe to this idea though. I think something may have value despite being ephemeral, but I wouldn't attribute its value to ephemerality or argue that ephemerality augments its value in some way.
Quoting unenlightened
I think when I talked about being forgotten I may have painted the wrong picture. this would mean that value depends on recognition. It would be like arguing that if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around to hear it, it wouldn't make a sound. Also, it's my interactions with other people that are the only source of fulfillment in my life. The problem is that it's just not enough. Any fulfillment I experience is dwarfed by suffering.
Usually the solution to this type nihilism involves seeing yourself more as part of a greater whole, that consequentially has a function or purpose in that larger whole.... Problem is we don't especially live in a culture right now that is conductive to this kind of solution, because any type of communitarian feeling be it religious or non-religious has essentially been hollowed out by individualism/capitalism/consumerism.
Anyway this is maybe not so much a resolution, but more of a recognition that you're not alone i guess.
I wrote sometime ago: "There is X and there is Y, and the simple fact that neither one matters itself does not matter, so they proceed apace as if they did, and that is all that matters."
If nothing matters, then that does not matter. Fork that bronc and ride!
Seeking for happiness is a dead-end, anyways, just like nihilism. Seeking for an incline in the decline is a fools’ errand. I found that it is better to return to the objective, to remember that each of us is a visible object that will inevitably affect the lives of others, and to make that object as interesting or as beautiful as possible, even if it results in our own pain and suffering. The only way to create tangible value in that sense is to become valuable.
https://www.academia.edu/36390747/Affective_Therapy_Spinozas_Approach_to_Self_Cultivation
https://martinbutler.eu/spinoza-on-desire/
https://martinbutler.eu/sweet-dissatisfaction/
https://martinbutler.eu/wp-content/uploads/MasteringEmotionalPain.pdf
https://martinbutler.eu/an-antidote-to-inner-emptiness/
https://www.youtube.com/c/MartinButlers
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFaZ3oYd5R77HVit9NzJLKA
Butler has a great channel. A decent philosophical mind who explains Spinoza's philosophy easily. He can contradict himself and be a bit too pessimistic at times, but his work is invaluable.
If you don't like Spinoza (He's quite technical, and honestly boring to read) the Nietzschean angle on all of this was very helpful too. I hope you find these useful. Reginster explains the Will to Power better than anyone I've seen:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/233570734.pdf
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43154731
https://philpapers.org/rec/REGTWT
I'm going to go against the grain here as one of the only philosophical pessimists on this forum, and your OP seems right in my lane to respond to..
We always see the term "human condition" in philosophical literature.. but that is a slippery term up for interpretation. Here is how I think it does fit as a useful term:
A "human condition" would be something that is apart from other living creatures' conditions (like animal/plant/non-sentential). So what in the human condition, sets us apart? Well, we can judge what we are doing as we are doing it. We are (probably) the only animal that can do a task related to keeping us alive and make linguistic-based judgements like, "I hate doing this task" while you are doing that task.. And that task might be something like work, or chores, or driving in traffic, or picking through the trash, or whatever it is you find yourself doing to keep yourself alive in some sort of socio-economic system (most likely it will be how you fit into the global industrialized one we have today unless it is as a tribal person in a hunting-gathering localized one or Robinson Crusoe situation). This provides an extra layer of pessimism on top of simply surviving. We cannot just "be" in our enivrons, but we must know that we are being, and we can judge any task, any moment, any thing as negative. This is the human condition- our ability to have a secondary layer of knowing on top of just "being" as other animals seem to have.
Also, you should read up on Schopenhauer. He really gets to the heart of existing "in the first place". Basically his theory is that of constant uneasiness and dissatisfaction. We must keep our minds occupied, and it is up to us, because as Sartre said: "Existence precedes essence". There is no reason for this or that motivational goal. The true main motivators seem to be survival-related needs, comfort-related needs (both relative to culture), and a heavy dose of boredom-related needs. We are never satisfied just "being" but always running around, filling up the time, and providing all sorts of reasons based on personality-based preferences for why we did it. But really, it's boredom and survival (within a cultural socio-economic base).
Likely you were raised by parents who told you to accomplish things for some grand goal. You might have been in a religion that told you to give your life meaning. Or your culture told you to do something for some meaning. What you are realizing, is that was all for them, not yourself.
No, there is no emotion of meaning in what you do for others innately. Yes, in the end everything will be destroyed. But do you care for yourself, or do you care because others won't be around to remember your greatness?
True meaning is what gives YOUR life meaning. It doesn't matter if your life won't extend to tomorrow, you're alive today right? You want to do something at the end of the day, fulfills you. To feel like you enjoyed existing that day. To feel like you could enjoy existing tomorrow if it comes.
What you found when you stopped studying engineering was you didn't want to actually do that job. That was what other people told you what you would likely enjoy, benefit you, or benefit their own social standing or structure.
You are learning that you don't have to do what society wants. You are learning that you will never have meaning in what society wants. That is the existential crisis, as you have been raised to think that way for societies benefit. You're free. You can do what you want. If you do not want anything apart from what you have, there is nothing wrong with that. If you want more than what you have, there is nothing wrong with that. Enjoy your freedom, and when you learn to let go of what society expects or thinks, you'll find happiness and peace.
What works for me is that instead of striving for a happy life, I live for a proper death. After all, Were all gonna kick the can someday.
Woody Allen made a career out of this idea. Many people at some point come to the conclusion that nothing matters, that life is meaningless and that in the end everything is lost. Generally this hits you in your twenties and it either halts you in your tracks or gives you a new place to start. The choice is yours.
I decided as a teenager that the only meaning available to people was the one they made for themselves. Even religious meaning is subjective because we are generally drawn to a spirituality that appeals to our personal preferences.
I'm no Buddhist but I found these ideas helpful decades ago when I first grappled with meaninglessness.
The Four Aryan (or Noble) Truths are perhaps the most basic formulation of the Buddha’s teaching. They may be expressed as follows:
1. All existence is dukkha. The word dukkha has been variously translated as ‘suffering’, ‘anguish’, ‘pain’, or ‘unsatisfactoriness’. The Buddha’s insight was that our lives are a struggle, and we do not find ultimate happiness or satisfaction in anything we experience. This is the problem of existence.
2. The cause of dukkha is craving. The natural human tendency is to blame our difficulties on things outside ourselves. But the Buddha says that their actual root is to be found in the mind itself. In particular our tendency to grasp at things (or alternatively to push them away) places us fundamentally at odds with the way life really is.
3. The cessation of dukkha comes with the cessation of craving. As we are the ultimate cause of our difficulties, we are also the solution. We cannot change the things that happen to us, but we can change our responses.
Lots of things here I agree with.
Leopardi has a nice response to some of the issues you raise, I quote him here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/599109
What you believe and what you feel are two separate things that are often in conflict.
The most effective way to deal with the absurdity of reality, that I have found, is to shrug my shoulders, and make sure I get enough sleep. Stay calm and lucid.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
Think on what you need and do that.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
Still unmotivated, Nicholas? Well, Cioran might say you are graced with sloth. Take solace in boredom; after all, life is short.
:100:
:up:
Your situation is MUCH better than I first thought. You find helping people worthwhile. That's solid rock! Were you so alienated, so mired in anomie, so pessimistic that "helping people" didn't seem worthwhile or meaningful, you'd be in a very dark hole indeed. But you are not.
We all have to put together a suite of workable beliefs that help us get through the day. Well, I suppose we don't have to, but having them makes life better.
BTW, there is indeed plenty of pointlessness and meaninglessness in the world. Try to avoid that kind of quicksand. Nobody is doomed if they stumble into it, but they are if they don't crawl out.
Everybody wants happiness. That's a given.
Happiness, however, comes at a price. We have to, well, work for it. One can't just lie in bed and decide to be happy and be happy.
Now, I recall an incident in my rather dull and uninteresting life where a child wanted a piece of cake. What this child did is what's key to the paradox. She hovered around the cake, asked "cakey" questions, smiled more than could be accounted for by the prevailing circumstances, and so on. The mother figured it out. Adults! "Do you want some cake?" she queried. Qui tacet consentire videtur! "Why didn't you say so?" the mother said in a half-reprimanding tone and pushed the cake towards the now gleeful child.
Why didn't you say so?
Let's all cut to the chase, shall we?
I think I am slowly getting out of exactly the same mindset expressed in the OP. I searched through existentialism for a while, and found very honest ideas. For example, I found the closest thing I currently have to a formulation of the "meaning" of life. It has sharp edges still, but I trust you will know to avoid them, based on your morality.
The meaning of life is to regularly overcome resistance.
This basically comes from Bernard Reginster's "The Affirmation of Life" which I made a noise about in some other thread. It's a bit long and academic, since it's actually a Nietzsche interpretation by a harvard prof, so it might not be for everyone. Anyway, I should give a bit more than that.
We existentialists and nihilists are always thinking about the long game. Like, the really long, long game. Others say it's the journey that matters, but we scoff at that. Just like you scoffed at my meaning of life up there. We say:
and
and
And we wrap it up with:
Where do we sail, if not into oblivion? And surely any wind at all will do to get us there.
I'll admit that there's a bit of a gap for me here. Somehow, complete oblivion at the end is less of an issue for me know. Maybe because I've read enough smart people talking about how time isn't really all that fundamental. Maybe because I've realised that the fascination with infinities and the afterlife is really about other things, like justice. True infinity can't be a goal, anyway. You'll never reach it, otherwise it wouldn't be infinite.
So, how to pick a goal then? I am starting to go with the hardest road, with only one limitation. You should still feel that there is a chance of success. Do the hardest thing you think you can do. Or something close to that in difficulty. If it's too much, re-evaluate and go again. When there is no wind, use oars. And when it's blowing a gale, take a rest.
As for "giving a shit" about your surroundings: Remember it's not just the objects. For me it was about the people. Never forget about the people. Covid sucked for that, but thats kinda why I'm here.
Well this is already way too long, so I'll wrap up. Music is awesome. I play the viola, not very well. This year I joined a casual student orchestra, after like three years of not playing (until it got cancelled because of lockdown haha). My sight reading was really bad, I was the only person playing viola, and the first few times I came out wanting to quit. Instead, I've used the lockdown to practice and I'm going back next year. Why? Because it's something challenging that I might be able to do.
I'm not the master of my destiny, nor a slave to it. Yet in a weird way, I'm both.
---
First two excerpts are from Nietzsche "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" part 4 chapter 9 "The Shadow", second one is Ecclesiastes 2:17 (part of a longer, relevant section). Third one again "The Shadow". Last one is Wilhelm Müller, "Am Feierabend" put to music by Schubert as part of "Die Schöne Müllerin". I felt like including it, not sure why.
I want to fix my teeth but I don't want to go the dentist! :rofl: I just want to die!
Quoting ChatteringMonkey
That perspective of being part of something larger than yourself is one of the only things that's helped. I'd like to have a positive impact on the lives of the people around me. It makes me feel a little better.
Quoting James Riley
I like that a lot.
Quoting Albero
I appreciate the recommendations and will be going through that list shortly. I've read most of Nietzsche's books, but I haven't read Spinoza.
Quoting schopenhauer1
I'm familiar with Schopenhauer's work. He writes beautifully, and I subscribe to pretty much all of his ideas. I go back to him from time to time.
Quoting Philosophim
You worded this very well, and I agree. Also, regarding your comment about people remembering my greatness, I don't believe that value is conferred by recognition. That quickly leads to absurdities. All that being said, I'm struggling to look away from the abyss and find my own meaning. I have made progress though.
Your philosophy reminds me of Viktor Frankl's
*******
I'm going to come back and continue replying to comments later. I appreciate everybody who has taken the time to respond.
Can you elaborate some? Didn't Plato make a comment like that? Something along the lines of "All of life is just preparation for death."
Quoting Tom Storm
I'm not religious by any stretch, but I agree with many of the tenets of Buddhism (definitely the points you mentioned).
Quoting _db
That basically describes me. Also, in recognition of this context of absurdity, I'm indifferent when faced with most risks.
Quoting TheMadFool
Regarding the list that I mentioned earlier, the list of things that contributed to my unhappiness, some of the items have been more difficult to cross off than others. The most difficult probably would have to be one of the more recent items: correcting my short stature. I worked 80-hour weeks and had 4 surgeries to correct my proportions and increase my height. This was, as you could imagine, agonizing. Anyway, my only point is that I am putting in the work.
Quoting the affirmation of strife
This feels like stoicism. I regularly practice a lot of stoic philosophies.
Quoting the affirmation of strife
This was my life "before." I had a foreign-language vocabulary in the neighborhood of 10,000 words, played the piano and composed a little, was a proficient mnemonist, and planned to double major in physics and math (My professors said I had the aptitude for it.).
In hindsight this was all a distraction. There were philosophical problems that I didn't want to address. I was too busy filling my life with meaning to consider meaninglessness.
From Bring Me The Horizon, right? Hospital For Souls? That's a great song!
Me too! Good luck!
I looked through all the responses but didn't see this. It seems obvious. Maybe I missed it. It seems like you are depressed. That's not a philosophical problem, it's a psychological, maybe physical, one. Have you talked to a therapist? If not, it's worth a try. It helped me.
Thank you! And to you too! I already completed the surgeries. I'm currently in the recovery process. I'm still in pain but it's manageable and my mobility is improving.
I certainly am depressed, but I believe it's an effect and not a cause. I'm currently taking medication and that's been the only way I've been able to function. Without it I would be jobless and in a far worse position. I've tried therapy, but it hasn't helped. I'll likely try again in the future though.
:up: :flower:
There are people here on the forum who have found their way through philosophy. I always have found their experiences moving and inspiring, although it is not my way.
If he did I'm flattered :lol: I mostly just meant that if were all going to die anyway, might as well make your ending something that you are proud of. Although I will be honest, this is just what works for me. It might be better if you try to find out yourself what makes your life worth living, that way no-one can tell you otherwise.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
I don't know in what sense you use the term "nihilist" and why do you need to put a label on you, which I am quite sure cannot define you. "Labels" have this drawback: they cannot define people! They can only give an idea, and in most cases quite vague one, about them.
For instance, a simple definition of "nihilism" --i.e. w/o referring to a philosophical research-- is "The rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless". This is of course too general and it insufficient to characterize someone in any way. It's just a philosophical position. But even if you expand this definition and make it more specific, we still cannot create a "nihilist" model that fits everyone. Besides, you don't need to use such a label (or any other for that matter), because you are describing how you feel and think quite clearly, I believe. And I also believe that it is only on that base that we can tackle the subject of your topic effectively.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
This is not what nihilism is, based on the definition I provided above. But I don’t think any other definition will claim that nihilism claims that "everything is baseless". Which, BTW, you nagate by saying later: "I see almost everything as completely pointless".
Most of the philosophers and people in general, believe that life has no meaning, or at best they cannot find what the meaning of life is. (Exceptions are deeply religious and mystical people who believe that life has a purpose. Different purpose for each one, of course! :grin:)
Therefore, they should ba all called nihilists! Neither does it make them unhappy. I don't believe that life itself has a purpose of itself, and I am not an unhappy person!
Life has the purpose that you give to it.
Now, from life having no purpose in itself to thinking about everything as pointless, there's a huge distance. Anyway, I don't believe that you think that way. For example, you say "I believe in a universal morality" and "evolution has crafted a more-or-less objective moral system where honesty and integrity are praised and dishonesty, etc. are decried." That's huge! There are not many people who believe this/ Most of the people believe that morality is subjective. And this alone can make them unhappy! Believing in universal and objective values, maybe do not give life a meaning but make it stronger, more solid. Such values are based on logic (rational thinking), which is the best tool that Man disposes and which makes them mentally healthy human beings. This must be never underestimated! A rational being cannot be unhappy. Only emotions and lack of rationality make us unhappy. This is too evident, isn't it?
I wish I had your problems!
I have gone through a similar thing. I still consider myself a nihilist, by which I mean that I don't think there is any meaning to anything besides what is asserted or experienced by an individual. This lack of significance to my life and actions became the lens through which I evaluated them. It became like a bell that would be sounded whenever I thought about doing something, letting me know what a waste of effort it would be. I stopped caring about what kind of person I was, I felt what happened to me didn't matter and I became depressed. This was not a chemical depression, this was a depression I imposed upon myself, I wouldn't let myself think positively, obsessed with how meaningless everything was. I was 18 at the time and was going through a lot of things with relationships and school, which helped to put me in a negative frame of mind.
As I worked through these feelings, I came to identify a state of mind that I labelled "interpretative possession". Because I experienced and saw in others, this kind of possession of a person where they force themselves to interpret things through always the same lens or framing, for me, this was the lack of objective meaning to everything. Another label I made was "interpretative relevance" which I felt was pertinent to my problems as I think it is to yours. Interpretative relevance refers to what facets of a thing are being emphasised and put into our formula for how we see something.
Perhaps you have the same problem as I had, you are not merely a nihilist, you are possessed; obsessed with nihilism. Perspectives like that you play the piano because you appreciate the instrument, or it's fun, or you like how it makes yourself and others feel, get pushed aside and replaced with "playing the piano is pointless and meaningless". I never stopped being a nihilist, but I did escape from how it possessed me.
I believe there are many ways to escape, ultimately I needed to realise that I was kind of beating myself up, I was torturing myself. Even if I felt life was meaningless, I didn't have to stop that from letting me enjoy the thrill of competition, or appreciating beauty, or being invested in myself and others. I developed my views on nihilism a lot since then but what helped me back then was to realise that I mattered, or maybe I realised I needed to assert that I mattered. My hobbies, my emotions and perspectives, my goals, these things mattered. I stopped worrying about how things I cared about lacked objective meaning and started to put some value in what it meant for something to matter to me.
Honestly, I went quite crazy with this idea of my own perspective and feelings mattering the most and did a near-complete 180 as I went into my 20s. I was quite unconcerned about what mattered to anyone but me and became selfish and arrogant. I felt like I was the centre of the universe, I mattered and created meaning in a world otherwise devoid of meaning. I don't think you need to go as I did but I wonder if your path to overcoming this problem might resemble mine. People say "create your own meaning" but how exactly can that be done? For me, it started with valuing myself and thinking that I mattered, and later, I expanded those feelings beyond myself. Now I feel as though, lots of things matter, they're deeply important to me. Let things mattering to you mean something, allow yourself to be invested, allow yourself to care and your life can be rich in meaning and purpose.
You haven't actually done an actual analysis as to whether our life is unique, have you?
And fleeting -- a rabies infection or a tsunami devastating the country you live in, for example, are fleeting too, but you wouldn't say that they make life worth living.
Such is the nature of seeking pleasure.
I'm not actually trying to actually do actual analysis. I'm handwaving to a chap who seems to be drowning. And try to keep breathing yourself through the beautiful tsunami.
Rare and fleeting doesn't automatically make something worthwhile. There are many horrible rare diseases, many rare destructive cosmic events, etc. and you wouldn't say that they make life worth living. They just don't.
So whence the idea that rare and fleeting makes life worth living?
One's own lived time is (a) good in itself, no? And we value scarce goods (re: high stakes loss) more highly than abundant goods (re: low stakes loss), no?
(Yeah, "worth" and "value" are not extact synonyms, the latter more intersubjective (transactional) and the former more subjective (experiential); I think in this context, however, their meanings are convergent.)
If you listen a good music, do you want music to get to the end fast ? Or you enjoying it in process ?
Awesome! Moments of bliss!
I do say something rather like it. The terrible is also meaningful. Death is part of life and inseparable from it. So if life is worth living, it's worth the dying too. There can be no up without down, and no value without cost.
[quote=Slavoj Žižek]"We don't really want what we think we desire."[/quote]
I'd say be eccentric!
:up: You too like a paradox every now and then, don't you? :grin:
There are many intellectual paths one could take in life, however your subconscious is now telling you that yours has led you to a dead end and it's telling you through depression.
A nihilistic philosophy is almost certain to be dissonant with the human experience. Humans simply experience things as having value, whether we're able to objectively confirm that or not.
Perhaps an interesting thought could be, why you prefer to take a nihilistic outlook on life, which is just as uncertain of a supposition as an outlook that claims things do have value. The logical stance would be an agnostic one; maybe things have value, maybe they don't. Why do you prefer to pick the belief that rejects value? Why pick a belief at all? That in itself implies a preference for things not having value, which is a contradiction in itself.
I've yet to meet a person whose professed views entirely contradict their lived experience in which it does not lead to them becoming miserable.
Ego seems to be root of the problem. You want a legacy but are guaranteed none. The best I can think of is: you're more likely to be remembered if you strive for it. But it's a crappy raison d'etre in the first place imo. The universe is an interesting place. Since we each exist in it only briefly, makes sense to know a thing or two about it before we die.
We can surmise you beat your spouse, so that they can appreciate your tendernesses.
Why is it important to be remembered?
We can surmise you're just jealous. :scream:
Just for the record, if a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it, it absolutely does not make a sound. Rather, it makes a series of vibrations in the air. IF and ONLY IF someone is there to hear it, the vibrations become what we understand as sound.
In regards to your main point, I have never seen things the way do you so there is only so much I can understand- do not want to come off as insensitive - but I have always found innumerable ways to either be happy, or better yet, not even need to be happy to be fulfilled and content.
I consider heroism a powerful solution.
It does not matter how all encompassing or inevitable a source of suffering is, if I can situate myself in opposition to it, and muster the strength to even try to confront it, then I have something engaging to do. All myths and stories indulge in this, and I have always found their consumption and reflection immensely fulfilling. The Christian story in particular, (though I am not a Christian) is one I might investigate very deeply if you haven't. Here, even death is destroyed by the willingness to confront it, and there is a great human dignity in the story that does not appear to me to be at all naive. The power and courage of a knight in the face of darkness is just really cool if nothing else, and such boldness is something that is obviously very possible to muster as a human. There is a song in the musical "Big Fish" called "Be the Hero". Gives me goosebumps every time.
Stoicism is another option, although I don't think it is quite as cool as heroism.
Sincere love, although it's a little corny, can also be a powerful force in the right context.
I also sort of have the sentiment like, if there is nothing good or purposeful in the world... fine, but then I'll just be the first good and purposeful thing, relying on my creativity and strength of heart.
"Henceforth I ask not good fortune, I myself am good fortune" - Walt Whitman
Even if such a sentiment is naive, and I can never be "good fortune" manifested, the sheer rebelliousness and fun to be had with the mindset is continuously fulfilling for me.
I mean even if you're searching for happiness or something like it at all, there is obviously some part of you that has a will towards it, and that "will to purpose" or happiness or whatever, is also irrefutably a part of this apparently dreary and transient universe. I suppose I am suspicious as to where such a hopeful sentiment came from and what it's for. No point discarding it just because... what it seems unique?
Even the study of history gives me hope. That there came before me an entire pantheon of brothers and sisters facing the same kinds of problems and making the same kinds of mistakes. Now I carry on the banner of consciousness in their name. Whatever hopes were shattered at their death are rekindled with the beat of every waking heart and in the eyes of little children. If they only knew that the sun still rises, as beautiful as it did for the Egyptians, the Greeks, and the Tang.
(structurally incoherent digression but) I'll also just refute nihilism really quick. If you really think nothing matters, there is a very VERY VERY small chance that you would tell me that nothing mattered. If its all just the same, why not tell me that everything matters? Or the scores to the latest basketball games? As soon as you articulate a statement, you give IT value, unless you've articulated it completely randomly. You value nihilism as long as you want to uphold it, which is not nihilism. And if you don't want to uphold nihilism then you're already in the same boat as me. I am not a nihilist. I see a great adventure in the human soul. And the adventure doesn't disappear just because there is death.
In the words of one of the very philosophers who helped establish the current volatile state of human values that even allows nihilism to be popular in the first place:
"Cast not away the hero in thy soul, maintain holy thy highest hope" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Under the wrong context that could all sound judgy, but I am trying to aim for compassion. I want there to be respect for human dignity. And again, I might not understand how you see things. Hope some of it was relevant. Cheers
What is the basis of your claim?
(It is at least inconsistent to praise rugged individualism to other people.)
So failure to find satisfaction in things which, by their very nature, cannot provide satisfaction, is evidence of mental illness?
As for my agreeing or disagreeing with it: All I can say is that I wish for it to be true, but I see no conclusive evidence for it to be true.
You wrote a lot but I think the key issue is this. Everything in fact is completely pointless indeed! Right about that.
But this is exactly what should make us free and should be considered as a leverage for happiness, not an obstacle. That free us from all the idiot unnecessary social stress we have. Life itself is nothing but a joke. We humans just take it too serious.
Imo, you face the moon but you look at it from the dark side. I don't ask you to look the bright side of it.Just look at it straight. How it actually really is! It might help you, I don't know. Not that I fully achieve it but I try to do the same when my dark self visits me.
Oops! No, that was Socrates: "Ordinary people seem not to realize that those who really apply themselves in the right way to philosophy are directly and of their own accord preparing themselves for dying and death. If this is true, and they have actually been looking forward to death all their lives..."
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I don't think those are mutually exclusive definitions. I think meaninglessness is a product of purpose-giving ideas being baseless. This is from Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated."
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I agree that it makes life a lot better. It provides somewhat of a foundation. I'm not sure that rationality leads to happiness though. On the contrary, the smartest people I've known are usually not the happiest. Schopenhauer was brilliant, but he was far from happy.
I do agree, though, that meaning and purpose are subjective. They are what you make them.
Quoting Judaka
Exactly! I used to be very prolific, but now I don't do anything.
I'm going to spend more time thinking about this. I like your wording: "possessed by nihilism."
Quoting Nothing
I agree that the solution is to enjoy the process. Recognizing that is the first step. Now it's a matter of how exactly to go about it.
Oh yes, I'm familiar with Camus. “There is only one really serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide."
Yes, if given the choice to feel better, I would make it. Taking time daily to learn about the mind and yourself can get exhausting though. Usually I have introspective periods scattered throughout my day, and sometimes my effort is more concerted. I want answers and I'm spending time looking for them.
Quoting Tzeentch
I agree with this 100%.
Quoting Tzeentch
I think agnosticism implies equal likelihood, which I disagree with. I'm inclined to have nihilistic views because that makes the most sense. This is clearly not based on utility, as nihilism is inherently destructive. There are some life-promoting branches, like absurdism, but in general all arrows point toward suicide.
Quoting Tzeentch
That is very true!
Quoting Kenosha Kid
I think including that part in the OP was a little misleading. Legacy to me is meaningless because it implies that value comes from recognition, which seems absurd to me. I would say that value absolutely does not depend on recognition (or being remembered). Also, without exception, everybody is eventually forgotten.
Yes, I read that. And, by this occasion, I also found dozens of other definitions. Only https://www.yourdictionary.com/nihilism has 10 of them!
Actually, it was my mistake to get involved in nihilism. I usually avoid talking about "-isms" and "-ists" because they are "boxed", "framed" concepts and usually mean anything or nothing.
Sorry about that :sad:
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
Right. Rational people can be unhappy and irrational people happy. But as a rule, rationality indicates mental sanity and more control over the mind, in comparison to lack of logic/rational thinking and, even worse, irrationality. People with high IQ are certainly known as more happy. And there are a lot of reasons for that.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
I have read Schopenhauer way in the past. From what I remember, he was a pessimist, right? Well, he might be gifted with rational thinking, but most probably he fell into "traps". He must have erred at some point on the road. False assumptions can be created very easily even by thinking rationally. And we know where false assumptions can lead ...
My conclusion: Pessimism does not entail unhappiness; neither optimism, happiness.
Well now thats a hot take if I've ever seen one.
:up:
Quoting 180 Proof
The working term is defensive pessimism.
It's strange though, because in psychological research, defensive pessimism appears to be implicitly conceptually conflated with good work ethics.
Oh, c'mon. That's just semantics, and I don't even buy it. That would mean that if a person who stood next to a speaker producing a particular sound walked far enough away from said speaker, the speaker would stop producing the sound even though nothing changed physically. Reductio ad absurdum?
Quoting SatmBopd
You're very fortunate.
Quoting SatmBopd
That's true. This is where most of my time has been spent actually. I'm referring to the "list of things that contributed to my unhappiness." This idea of finding meaning through opposition is a tenet of stoicism. I like it.
Quoting SatmBopd
Ha ha! Right after I typed that.
Quoting SatmBopd
For some reason i interpret this as more depressing than hope inspiring. Maybe it's the continuation of disappointment or failure vs a chance at redemption.
Quoting SatmBopd
I agree with your reasoning, but as I said in the OP, it's not a true nihilism. Nihilism is a decent-enough starting point, but I have to qualify it.
Quoting SatmBopd
"The following is an experiment in nihilism. Already I have contradicted myself! How can one believe in disbelief? I might be a nihilist except that I don’t believe in anything."
- Mitchell Heisman
:up:
Of course, it can be defensive optimism, people lowering their expectations as a method of emotional protection (i.e. be prepared for the worst, etc.) But it can well be also consequential, based on reason, and indicate facing reality. For example, from the time when drugs (narcotics) started to be promoted in the 60's until today, we have been witnessing an enormous increase in their use and devastating effects. During these 70 years could --and can still-- people not be pessimistic about the evolution of events regarding drugs? Being optimistc on the subject --that this situation will be soon over, as if by magic or miracle, etc.-- means only turning a blind eye to and suppressing the problem. It goes the same with violence, suicides and all the plights our societies are going through today.
As for psychologists and their research, well, I don't trust them. They run mainly on prototypes. They sail on shallow waters and build houses on shaky foundations.
I've heard about this perspective before. Honestly, it makes sense. It's just very counter to my nature. It does help, but I don't think it's the whole solution for me.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Are you sure? I've never observed this. Genius IQ's in my family are normal, but so is depression. Maybe it's beneficial to an extent and then detrimental thereafter (in terms of achieving happiness).
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Yes
Ha ha, I like that. :)
Yes, I am sure. But note that I have not made a research on the subject. What I said was from my own observations and evaluations of a lot of people I have known well through time and known personalities with high IQ (geniouses or not) the work and life of whom I know well and which can tell a lot about their emotional state.
But even if I am mistaken in some cases, this is very far from waht you are stating! Never observed this??? Impossible! I have a high IQ and I am considered by people as well as by myself quite joyful! Now, you know about at least one case! :grin:
And since you mentioned geniuses, do you believe that known personalities like Einstein, Feynman, Richard Dawkins, etc., about whose work, life, and peraonality we know enough well to judge, were/are unhappy?
I would be interested to know about that. Do you have some examples or rationale on that?
Besides the examples I have, (I think that) I explained why a rational person has more chances to be happy than an irrational one. I didn't mention the reasons because I find it is something abovious if one examines what rationality is. We use logic to solve problems, undestand life, and do all sort of things that need analytical ability. Isn't someone who undestands a problem he has in a better position to solve it and get rid of it than someone who can't? Aren't intelligent people more imaginative, more humorous, have better skills in life, etc.? Aand aren't they considered more happy than those who don't have these qualities?
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
It's an interesting subject, indeed.
It's clearly shown that there's a positive correlation with intelligence and happiness up to a certain point (about 130). The reasons behind that should be obvious. At the upper echelon, however, it's much less clear. I think rationality can be a double-edged sword in this area. Consider religious beliefs, for instance. Religiosity has been clearly linked with happiness and fulfillment, but religiosity also varies inversely with IQ. At some point its shortcomings become so overwhelmingly obvious that you can't help but reject it, no matter how psychologically useful it may be. Those who possess very high IQ's are also more likely to be socially isolated and experience certain types of mental illness.
Yes, I guess so. But religiosity --deep religious beliefs w/o rational support-- often works like a crutch. It helps people escape reality. I know also some people who avoid or even refuse to hear bad news or stories and want only positive things in their life. They are overoptimistic. They seem happy, but they aren't. These people can very easily turn into anger and hate when they are facing the truth. The truth that actually resides in them but it is covered, negated.
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
I believe you refer to religiosity ...
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
I don't think so. Rationality can never lead to mental illness. Irrattionality can, if it's not already present.
This is why we are talking about "sanity" and "insanity", referring to mind.
BTW, happiness has a lot to do with ethics. An unethical person can never be happy. Criminals are certainly not. Criminality is insanity. And ethics have to do with reason and logic. I am not talking about "constructed" morality, religious or other. But ethics based on rational foundations. (See "philosophy of ethics".)
Superior IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bad-news-for-the-highly-intelligent/
High intelligence: A risk factor for psychological and physiological overexcitabilities
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289616303324
[i]Why highly intelligent people suffer from more mental and physical disorders
Your brain's heightened sensitivity can make you perceptive and creative. But it's a double-edged sword, researchers find.[/i]
https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/why-highly-intelligent-people-suffer-more-mental-and-physical-disorders/
And so on.
If you have to function among people who are less rational than you, you will probably run into a lot of problems.
Do you have any research that supports that?
OK. I have not studied the subject. There must be certainly some truth in all that. But I am not interested in or going to study the subject. But I am willing and interested to hear about a rationale and examples in life --typical and enough of them-- that prove that high IQ is connected to unhappiness. For the moment. this sounds just a crazy idea, to me.
And when I say that "rationality can never lead to mental illness" I mean it and I know it because I have studied the human mind quite a lot. I also explained why earlier in here. There are a lot of other factors that lead to mental illness.
I have also explained why "an unethical person can never be happy.". As with mind, I have studied the subject of ethics quite extensively.
The rationale is that a highly intelligent person is more likely (on account of being more intelligent) to see the complexity of life, more likely to see how complex problems in life are and thus, more likely to see how difficult it will be to solve them. This way, a highly intelligent person is less likely to be optimistic and confident.
However, a lot depends on the people one lives with and the resources one has available. The assumption is that for a highly intelligent person the lack of social input and resources that meaningfully respond to their complex understanding of the world will have a negative effect, whereas this same lack will not be as problematic for someone who doesn't think of the world in such complex ways.
So there can be no proof that high IQ is connected to unhappiness per se. But I think it goes without saying that a highly intelligent person, without proper support, without proper stimulation will not do well in life, their high intelligence becoming a curse.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894461/
I think we want to describe ethics on rational foundations, but inherently its something purely subjective.
Well, well... Our tastes vary then.
Yes
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I agree. I try to live an ethical life for a lot of reasons. It has a lot of advantages.
Quoting baker
Just look at politics or pseudo-ethical barriers slowing medical advancements. It's infuriating.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I think an unethical person is far less likely to be happy, but I find it hard to believe that out of 7 billion people there are no counterexamples. As a general rule, it certainly holds true. My former roommate was the epitome of unethical and he was miserable because of it.
This dichotomy doesn't really matter as long as one isn't in a position of power.
I suffer from satisfaction. I'm too satisfied with my mediocrity. I seek no progress, and I cant fufill my capabilities because i'm in love with being an average joe.
In a sense it's nihilistic. You could pull from it a definition that describes a lack of meaning in actions, no real objective, etc...
Does that mean I'm sad? Meh. Am I happy? Meh. I'm satisfied. I'm depressingly satisfied.
I think sometimes it's better to view the real world without philosophy and just simplify the way you look at things. There's probably some inherent rational flaws in my point of view, but it helps control my lack of purpose, which is good enough for me.
:roll:
Yes, highly intelligent person can see more things about life, which will be too complex for a not so intelligent person, but this does not mean that he cannot solve them. In fact, and as I have already mentioned in this thread, his problem-solving ability is higher. (Remember: IQ is all about problem-solving.) Also a high IQ person has better understanding and can simplify things.
“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.” (Einstein))
Life is much more simple for high- than for average-IQ people.
Quoting baker
I agree.
Quoting baker
I cannot say. I have no such examples in mind.
Quoting baker
But it's you you have already mentioned to me earlier: "Superior IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders, research suggests", etc. In fact you have brought up 3 references! (Re: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/625535)
Anyway, this was my position from start. So, there's no reason for talking about this subject anymore.
Yes, one can --and should! :smile:-- describe etchics on a purely rational basis. What you call "subjective" is that everyone has his own ethics, based on his views about the world, as well as mental conditions (from simple misunderstandings to severe mentel illnesses). However, almost every (sane) person would agree with basic ethics principles, e.g. it is unethical to intentionally steal, harm, suppress, invalidate, etc. other people. All these is based on rational thinking. They all refer to survival and well being.
Oh, certainly. Esp. in Chicago of the 30's! :grin: Killing was a pleasure. It must still be, I believe, for the Mafia. Here are some counterexamples for you! :grin:
BTW, it's good that you brought up this, because I should make a distinction regardinf what I said above: It only refers to sane people. A mentally ill person (psychotic, insane) usually cannot distinguish between right and wrong. That's why courts often sentence people to mental hospitals instead of prisons when it is proved that they are mentally ill and cannot distinguish between right and wrong, including the act for which they are accused and admit they did.
BTW #2: Thanks for all your aknknowledgets!
What good are one's high morals and one's high principles, if one is otherwise a loser, a slave, defeated and downtrodden by others?
Are your virtues really so much of a reward in and of themselves so as to outweigh the misery and the hardships you need to endure, misery and hardship that can also be due to your holding on to those very virtues and acting according to them?
Ethics have nothing to do with being a slave or a master. They have to do with survival end well-being. You are more well-off mentally and spiritually if your actions are ethical than if not. Ethics have to do with integrity. You cannot be happy --or at least have a clear consciousness-- if you have no integrity or when you are breaking that integrity. And integrity is for everyone: the slave and the master, the poor and the rich, loser or winner.
It is of course good to seek to act ethically because you are forced to --you are afraid to be punished or you are forced because it is requested by your religion or society or parents or company or whatever else-- but this does not mean that you are really an ethical person, because all this requires effort. Really ethical actions do not require effort. They are done naturally, effortlessly. They are the outcome of inherent ethical values and qualities.
Happiness is unrelated to your philosophy. You can be a miserable optimist and a beaming, happy pessimist. It all depends on the chemicals in your brain; Dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin.
Your well-being of a happiness-inducing brain chemistry depends mostly on genetics and on external factors that still have an effect on our neurochemistry since we were apes. One of these external factors are how high your position is on the dominance hierarchy. The higher on this hierarchy you are, the more feel good chemicals your nervous system releases. It's an ancient natural mechanism that most complex living beings have to make winners feel better, live longer and be healthier and makes losers the opposite.
Your brain is a machine, a system. The only difference is it's made of bio-organic matter and not from plastic and metal, like say a computer is. If a computer doesn't have enough electrical supply, then no matter what operational system you put in it, it still won't run.
It's the same with the brain. No matter what thoughts pass through, they have absolutely no effect on your emotional state, thinking otherwise is factually incorrect, although many bookselling moneymakers will try to convince you otherwise.