Imagination (Partial Simulations)
It's obvious that we can imagine - both the actual (memory based) and the counter-factual (from scratch).
Here I am, sitting in my chair in my sister's backyard, imagining I'm in a desert (my favorite desert is the Sahara). I then imagine a rock - layered sandstone, I'm not sure but it's reddish-brown. I reach out with my hand, my hand touches the rough surface, small pieces flake off BUT oddly I can't feel the texture of this rock with my fingers.
Our minds can, via imaginative ability, create simulations - virtual realities if you like - BUT the simulations are always partial/incomplete. In the example above, I can see the golden sand, I can see the rock I told you about, I can also see myself touch it BUT I can't feel the rock.
What gives?
Here I am, sitting in my chair in my sister's backyard, imagining I'm in a desert (my favorite desert is the Sahara). I then imagine a rock - layered sandstone, I'm not sure but it's reddish-brown. I reach out with my hand, my hand touches the rough surface, small pieces flake off BUT oddly I can't feel the texture of this rock with my fingers.
Our minds can, via imaginative ability, create simulations - virtual realities if you like - BUT the simulations are always partial/incomplete. In the example above, I can see the golden sand, I can see the rock I told you about, I can also see myself touch it BUT I can't feel the rock.
What gives?
Comments (43)
You're not dangerously insane. There's little to be said beyond that.
I suppose to pad the reply some, of all senses we possess sight and visuals are probably the most consequential and profound of the human experience. Sure, smell is useful to discern wildfires or when food has gone (really) bad, hearing is useful to discern loud (typically powerful, dangerous) happenings as well as communicate, but for all the threats to the human body that can be detected and avoided with the other four senses, there are at least two more that can be done with sight. Not all perfectly overlap of course. But why else are we such vain creatures? Museums, designer phone cases, covers, above all visual-based attraction. We don't have "smellatoriums" that are packed with people and their families day in and day out smelling unique scents. Sure, we appreciate a fragrance that is to say to replace/mask a neutral or malodorous one, but we rarely "seek it out" just to do so. We don't have "feelatoriums" where people rub furry walls and various textures all day for the fun of it. We throw people like that in mental institutions. Sure, you'd rather touch something smooth and silky than a jagged piece of metal but again, actually going out of your way to do so gives you weird stares.
Edit: There's just so much more information that can be communicated and yes experienced with sight. We don't have streaming services that you and a friend or your family gather around and "smell" various smells for an hour and a half. You don't call up your mates or have grandma flown in from Rochester to touch a Home Depot carpet sample booklet for hours on end. Granted audio and hearing makes a large part of the modern cinematic experience but silent movies passed the time then just fine and if given the opportunity will do so now.
Compare it to a dream. If it was just as real (sensory identical) or perhaps of a longer duration than what you define as not a simulation, you'd have a whole new set of questions.
Interestingly enough I've had many dreams that at least at one point or another all senses, in the moment of having them, realized dreaming or not, were activated, and that outlier is the sense of smell. Pain, sight and hearing naturally. Touch.. hm? Not quite. I dream often and remember, albeit vaguely many if not most of them, never having a single dream where I physically "felt" (as in feeling a texture) or "smelled" something. Curious, I suppose. Taste, only partially. I've noted unique (similar enough) tastes to food or beverage consumed in dreams, though without the savor. Perhaps, dreams are a window into Hell. Or to be more upbeat, somewhere greater where we are no longer dictated by satisfying our woefully outdated evolutionary wants and needs.
Like...
The only distinction between dreams and daydreams (the OP's focus) is volitional in character.
Quoting Outlander
Yes, it's possible that dreams could be experienced in all sensory modalities although I haven't come across any documented cases of such instances. I have my doubts.
My question, however, is why are we incapable of deliberately switching on all the senses when we daydream to produce an experience indistinguishable from reality itself? For instance, why couldn't my mind simulate the touch of the rock when I could simulate it visually?
I think Donald Hoffman's notion of our senses as an "interface" between us and the real world, may offer a clue to "what gives?" In The Case Against Reality, Why Evolution Hid the Truth From Our Eyes, he has concluded that our sensory perceptions have “almost surely evolved to hide reality. They just report fitness”. Even so, humans have also evolved another form of “perception” that we call “conception”.
And that’s where the philosophical debates divide. Via conception, we can imagine things we can’t see, and we sometimes find those subjective “ideals” to be more important than the objectively real objects of the physical realm. That sometimes leads to Faith, in which we “believe in things unseen”. Most of what we "know" about the physical world takes the form of abstractions or simulations (or "silumations", if you prefer), that contain only enough detail to allow us to survive the hazards of nature long enough to replicate our genes. But that pragmatic worldview falls far short of omniscience. So, "what gives" is an illusion of reality, not the ding an sich. :wink:
Interface : Window to Reality : Reality is not what you see
http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page21.html
I'm doing the same experiment and I can "feel" the texture of the sandstone. I have touched sandstone before so I believe I'm using the memory of it.
Also, I have had many lucid dreams in my life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
At first glance, the whole experience is indistinguishable from the woken state, until you start scrutinizing your perceptions. For example, one time I tried to look at visual details and they became blurry.
So why is my brain capable of recreating a very accurate image of reality when I'm dreaming but not when I'm awake?
I think it's simply because the perception of reality primes over imaginary perception. Try sensory deprivation. Lock yourself in a dark room for a week or more, and you'll find yourself in the Sahara touching sandstone.(or you'll turn into an ape like William Hurt in Altered States)
Come to think of it that sounds horrific. Imagine if someone suffered from PTSD flashbacks from a painful, violent incident but instead of just severe anxiety also felt the same physical pain as well.
Some people are so familiar with certain sensations they can "almost feel" them with enough thought, say the sand between our toes or the warm sun on your skin. Or even simply reading a very well-written (or at least chock full of superfluous adjectives and nauseating detail) paragraph describing a texture. Not aware of the technical biologic details as to why or why not other than to say that's just not how a properly functioning human brain works, and for good reason.
Quoting Brian Greene
I was wondering how if our senses don't give an accurate picture of reality, it would aid us in survival? That goes against the received wisdom that to be in touch with reality is key to living a happy and healthy life (most cases of death and injury occur when we believe falsehoods or ignore facts). :chin:
Quoting Gnomon
I've encountered this particular line of thinking in Yuval Noah Harari's (Israeli-born historian) book Sapiens, he calls them imagined orders (religion, money, state, etc.) but these are abstractions and not what I want to discuss. What I want to talk about is the fact that we can visualize with relative little effort but we can't do something similar with the other senses (smell, taste, touch, and hearing).
Quoting Vince
You maybe unique, a one of a kind then because most people can't do that. I, for one, can't do that. So you're saying that when you imagine yourself touching a rock with your hand, you can actually feel the rock i.e. your hands register sensations? :chin:
Quoting Vince
There's the possibility that life could be a dream and then to realize that would qualify as a lucid dream. What's your point though?
Quoting Outlander
Indeed, that would be a major drawback but then we can reverse the polarity and ask "what about all the wonderful experiences some people claim to have, wouldn't it be awesome if we could re-experience them in full/glorious technicolor?, if you know what I mean.
Quoting Outlander
I tend to agree - to be able to activate all the senses when you're imagining something may not always be a good thing.
I think you are assuming what you can or can't do is the norm.
I can imagine touch as vividly as images.
I was actually mildly shocked when I learned not everyone can do this.
I can imagine in all five sense modalities.
I don't understand how people choose what to eat if they can't imagine the scents or flavors of the food.
Suppose you've never smoked in your life or if you're smoker like me, you're not smoking as of now. Now, imagine that you are taking a puff of your brand of cigarette/cigar, take your pick. Like you I can see the cigarette in my hand, I bring it up to my mouth. What usually happens then is some wisps of smoke enter the nostrils and a distinct odor of burning tobacco becomes noticeable. This is happening in my imagination but, for better or worse, sorry to say, no smell of burning cigarettes. Are you telling me that in your case you can actually get the odor of tobacco on fire with your imaginary cigarette?
If yes, how do you do it? I'm curious.
I can imagine the sensation, but my hand is not actually feeling it, if it was the case it would be called a hallucination.
Quoting TheMadFool
Different topic I believe.
Quoting TheMadFool
I mentioned lucid dreaming in response to this:
Quoting TheMadFool
A lot of people, can remember having all sensory modalities during regular dreams after they wake up. In lucid dreams, sensations can be examined carefully at the same time as they are experienced. The result is a highly accurate recreation of reality as far as the senses are concerned. My point is that the more your senses are inhibited as they are in dreams or inside a sensory deprivation tank, the more your brain is taking over to recreate/hallucinate reality accurately. When you senses are uninhibited, you get the opposite effect.
Quoting TheMadFool
Because the perception of reality interferes with the capacity to daydream vividly, reducing it to the necessary elements. I can daydream all the senses but mostly one at a time. You seem to have an issue imagining particular sensations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
I wouldn't call it getting the odor of tabacco on fire. But assuming you are using that as a metaphor for experiencing the smell of tabacco inwardly, without having my olfactory nerves stimulated with present tabacco smoke, yeah.
Quoting TheMadFool
I dunno. How do you visualize? If someone asks you to "experience what it would be life if an apple were before you" you just kind of do it, no? How can you explain how you do it? If someone says "Now imagine smelling a sliced apple"... I just do it.
Maybe if you try religiously every day to imagine smelling something that isn't present, you can gradually develop the ability.
I wonder if introverts tend to have more vivid imaginations, since introverts tend to be more withdrawn. A friend of mine with aphantasia is very uninhibited. TheMadFool comes off as a quite uninhibited extrovert as well.
No, no metaphor implied or expressed.
Quoting Yohan
First off, I'm not interested in the kind of thought experiment that deals in imagining being something nonhuman (like an apple). Second, I don't mind speculating on the issue but if your claim - that you can perfectly simulate nonvisual sensations is true - there should be some well-documented case. A reference I could crosscheck would be really helpful. Thanks.
Quoting Hello Human
Perhaps I'm using the wrong words here but here'a the clearest version of the problem I can manage:
1. I can imagine, visually, eating an icecream.
2. I can't imagine its taste/smell/touch.
N.B. I can, it seems, simulate how icecream sounds like when I take a bite of it.
Quoting Vince
Even hallucinations aren't that complete. That's the point I believe.
Quoting Vince
Why did you bring it up? You're onto something or so I feel.
Quoting Vince
I get that part - sensory deprivation activating the imagination. You've made some claims regarding dreams, specifically lucid dreams. Initially I was of the view that you were barking up the wrong tree but there's something about lucid dreams that's relevant to what we're discussing although only indirectly it seems.
Quoting Vince
So, according to you,
1. The perception of reality interferes with the capacity to daydream vividly
Ergo,
2. We're unable to activate all our senses when daydreaming to produce an experience indistinguishable from reality.
How come "the perception of reality" doesn't have any effect on imaginations that are eye-specific? Why inhibit one sense while letting another sense have a field day?
lol I didn't say imagine being an apple. I said imagine an apple before you.
And I didn't say I can perfectly simulate nonvisual sensations. Whatever, you seem on the defensive a bit.
I'll leave you to search for well documented cases of perfectly simulated nonvisual sensations if you want.
What does it mean to get odor of tobacco on fire with an imaginary cigarette then, if its not a metaphor?
It almost sounds like synesthesia.
What gives is that you're making an unjustified generalization. People differ in how well they can simulate things, via different senses.
Also, maybe you damaged your sense of smell with smoking.
My stance is that people can't imagine smells/tastes/touch/sounds as they can visual images or if they can only to a lesser extent.
You claim that this is a hasty generalization. Do you have any references to back this up?
Quoting Yohan
References please. Thank you.
Quoting Yohan
Chickening out, I see. :grin:
Quoting Yohan
Now that's a good lead. Thank you. However, synesthesia is involuntary and also predominantly visual.
You made your claim first. What do you have to back it up?
Imagination (Merriam-Webster Dictionary): The act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before wholly perceived in reality.
No nention of senses other than vision!
Be a sport and give some references for your claim. This isn't a child's game of you said/did it first.
Quoting TheMadFool
Imagining is a kind of thinking and thoughts are mainly mental images. That's why your vision is the strongest sense.
Your other senses may be present but on a much lower intensity or even not at all. However, imagining is a kind of thinking and it resembles a lot to remembering. That's why sometimes we are not sure whether what seems as a factual memory of the past or created by our imagination. So, to make imagination stronger for other senses than vision, we can "borrow" from actually experienced sounds, smells, tastes and touches. E.g. you can taste the sand in your imagined stay in the desert, by remembering e.g. the disgusting taste and/or feeling you had once eating sand in a beach. You can also hear the sound of the wind that blows and the sand that moves by it, by remembering some experience you had on a beach. And so on. BTW, most often this happens automatically and w/o effort.
Have you tried that?
In his analogy with icons on a computer screen, Hoffman explains how a low-resolution representation of Reality is good-enough to keep us alive long enough to reproduce. Computer users interact with crude icons that represent messy reality in abstract outline, while hiding the complex mechanical and information-processing going on down below the surface.
However, philosophers, and scientists, (unlike most animals) are not content with "good-enough", and bare survival. Instead, they strive, not for pragmatic Science, but for ideal Omniscience ; not for adapting ourselves to the world, but for modifying Nature to suit human nature. :cool:
Interface Reality :
In other words, what we think we see, is not absolute reality but our own ideas about reality. Donald Hoffman calls those mental models “Icons”, serving as symbols that merely represent the unseen information processes within the computer system.
http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page21.html
Note -- According to Hoffman, our symbolic interface gives an adequate (not accurate) picture of reality
Icon :
Semiotics. a sign or representation that stands for its object by virtue of a resemblance or analogy to it.
Note -- our senses and brains convert incoming signals from the environment (that are already encoded into abstract patterns of color & contrast) into neural patterns, that are abstracted further, and merged with prior knowledge from memory, into the low resolution patterns we call thoughts and ideas. Although those ideas are merely crude analogies of reality, they form our beliefs about reality. So, yes, we can be deluded by incomplete representations (perhaps based on "fake news") into believing falsehoods. Fortunately, some of us are aware of that pitfall, and take steps to make our symbols & icons & beliefs more accurate, by obtaining more & more detailed information to flesh-out our not-quite-good-enough mental models..
I used inhibited regarding the senses, in terms of restriction of perception. The uninhibition your describe is related to restriction of actions. Is there a correlation between both? I don't know.
There are different degrees of hallucinations. They can be incomplete but some are complete enough to make you think they're real without any doubt. That's the point I'm interested in.
Quoting TheMadFool
I was referring to this: Quoting TheMadFool
The "life could be a dream" thing. I don't think that, and that's a different conversation.
Quoting TheMadFool
Indeed, I find the dream world fascinating.
What, may I ask, does this have to do with our inability to imagine smells, tastes, touch, sounds like we can sights?
When someone says I'm imagining X, he means it he can see it with his oculus mentis and definitely not that he can smell, touch, taste, or hear X.
Yes, but WHY? A webage I found claims that those who are congenitally blind dream in sounds and surely their imagination can't be in images - they lack sight.
For lucid dreaming
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_LaBerge
His first book is really popular.
You can be born blind and still have a visual cortex. In absence of visual stimuli from the eyes, I'm quite sure the brain will have reallocated the space to process other senses, and because the visual cortex is meant to give you images, blind people may be seeing sounds, and not just in dreams but also when they're awake.
Category error?
What do you mean?
Why is vision the strongest sense? I have not that kind of knowledge but I guess that the human body structure is such that it relies basically on vision for purposes of survival, and thus this is the dominant sense. But I think that this holds for most animals, except a few ones in which other senses are stronger. Although there exist some water creatures that are blind ...
I found the following ref just now: Why Vision Is the Most Important Sense Organ
(https://www.smartvisionlabs.com/blog/why-vision-is-the-most-important-sense-organ/) but I heve not read it yet. (There are many though ...)
Quoting TheMadFool
It makes sense. It's a common knowledge that persons who are deprived of a sense substitute it with one or more other senses. Blind persons develop audio and touch to a much higher degree than normal. Deaf persons develop a lips reading skill (to an extent that they can almost "hear" the person who is speaking), a skill in sensing vibrations, etc.
It's all a question of survival.
Anyway, I believe neurobiologists must have the answers!
I hadn't given that much thought. But the inability to "imagine" non-visual sensations may be due to a lack of need, or practice. Since humans and apes are mostly visual creatures, we don't feel the need to "sense" those sensations apart from incoming stimuli. But the brain does seem to be capable of generating imaginary sensations when certain "wires" get crossed. However, I suspect that dogs may dream of smells at times, because such sensations are more important to them than to us anosmic (smell deficient) animals. :wink:
Phantosmia (phantom smell), also called an olfactory hallucination or a phantom odor, is smelling an odor that is not actually there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantosmia
Anosmic refers to anosmia which is a condition that has to do with losing the sense of smell partially or completely.
Microsmatic is probably a better term, it describes an under developed sense of smell.
Here's the five senses in order of importance for humans:
Sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch.
No wonder touch is the one you seem to have issues with.
You yourself said you can imagine the sound of eating ice cream. A lot of people report having songs get stuck in their head. What do you think goes on in that case? Its literally hearing a song loop in ones mind. Sometimes I spontaneously imagine complete albums in my mind, to stretch my creative limits. Well, I shouldn't make it seem like I do this regularly, or that I actually completed a full album, but I've gotten something close
.
Do you think people hearing songs in their heads is 'well documented'? I doubt it. Its already folk knowledge that this occurs. So who would fund research?
It is a big assumption that anything people can do in their imaginations would be well documented. This is a folk knowledge area, not a thing for rigorous scientific documentation necessarily. Not that it couldn't be done, but its hard to imagine scientists being sufficiently motivated to do this sort of research.
Thanks.
That's one way of looking at it but there are other possibilities, possibilities that are non-Darwinian in character.
:ok: It's a pity not many people have researched the one faculty that's the key to enhancing our future-oriented mindset.
Like what?
Use your imagination.
You can touch the desert rock, but it would be a temporary, disposable sense.
Partial simulations craft by imagination are mostly extrasensory, noi, ibrio, procip, etc. This allows for a hybrid type of sense that's half real and half unreal between the veil of reality and your own.
It isn't extrasensory. Visiual simulations are what imagination is.
Quoting TheMadFool
:chin: