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Is anyone else concerned with the ubiquitous use of undefined terms in philosophical discourse?

Cartesian trigger-puppets October 04, 2021 at 07:48 9325 views 47 comments


As philosophers, or as people with philosophical ambitions, we should be more concerned with the linguistic and conceptual problems that vagueness and ambiguity impose on the information we transmit through our philosophical discourse. Vagueness and ambiguity affect our ability to evaluate the meaning of the information contained in a sentence or a word, thus rendering it logically impossible to determine the truth-value of any statement thereby expressed. To be clear, a statement is the meaning intended by any sentence which is capable of being true or false. A sentence is simply the linguistic vehicle through which a statement is expressed. Multiple sentences may express the same statement (“Every man is a mortal” and “All men are mortal” are different sentences that express the same thing). Moreover, a sentence may allow for multiple statements to be plausibly expressed (“The organ is not working” the word “organ” can denote either a body part or a musical instrument).

Sentences which allow for more than one known and reasonable interpretation of its meaning are ambiguous. This is because the information contained by the sentence is capable of conveying more than one distinct meaning, and thus is capable of expression more than one distinct statement. If the sentence “John is at the bank” can mean either that John is at the edge of a river, or that John is at a financial institution, then there is no way to distinguish whether or not the sentence expresses a true or false statement. This may seem trivial in the example, but it is crucial for the application of logic. Since we apply logic to guide our moral, legal, and political decisions in every day life, it follows, then, that our accuracy in the application of logic is very important indeed.

In order for us to accurately apply logic, we must therefore learn how to disambiguate the informational content and structures of our sentences so that they only allow for the expression of one truth bearing statement. However, before we learn how to disambiguate the information we intend to transmit through a sentence, it is important to understand how to distinguish between information which has ambiguity from information which has vagueness.

Information which has ambiguity occurs whenever the meaning of a word, phrase, or sentence has several interpretations as a result of not being explicitly defined (“Right to bear arms” the word “Right” may denote “correctness” or “Something which cannot be infringed upon” and the phrase “Bear arms” may denote “The limbs of an animal” or “To acquire weapons”). Information which has vagueness, on the other hand, occurs whenever the meaning of a predicate cannot be precisely defined because, though it may clearly apply to the majority of cases, it cannot however be clearly applied to border line cases, thus making it difficult to form any interpretation with a high level of specificity (“That is a big rock” the word “big” is successfully applied in practical use, but it is not clear where to draw the line where objects are no longer big without a relative frame of reference).

It should be noted that semantic ambiguity occurs when an expression has multiple senses when uttered out of context. There are several subtypes of semantic ambiguity, one of which occurs at the word level and is called lexical ambiguity. Lexical ambiguity is ambiguity which offers a choice between multiple known and meaningful interpretations of a word or phrase depending on context of its usage (the word “bank” is an example of lexical ambiguity with multiple distinct lexical definitions, such as “financial institution” and “rivers edge”).

However, there are semantic ambiguities which are much more difficult to detect than lexical ambiguities (when a word form corresponds to more than one meaning). For example, the sentence “The moon is lighter than the raven” has lexical ambiguity stemming from the word “light” (describing either weight or color), which is much easier to detect than say syntactic ambiguities. Syntactic ambiguities, such as in the sentence “I saw the neighbors down the street with a telescope” are much harder to detect or determine the meaning of. This is because the constituents of the sentence, though all may be individually understood semantically, are syntactically structured in such a way that understanding their pragmatic meaning is problematic because it is not clear what exactly the sentence means. Did they use a telescope to see the neighbors down the street? Did they see the neighbors down the street holding a telescope? Was it the neighbors next-door who were seen down the street, or was it the neighbors who stay down the street? As you can see, it is quite possible for the information contained in the sentence to be interpreted in many different ways, thus expressing many distinct statements, which could subsequently undermine the successful communication of information.

This is an issue commonly observed in casual language users when people, often undisciplined to use precision of language, presuppose that others share the meaning of the language they use. This is why people of this sort spend time arguing about which flavor of ice cream is the best. They usually aren’t aware of the vagueness imposed on the term “best” or that it is utterly dependent upon the taste preferences relative to an individual. If they did it would be clear that each argument is correct if framed subjectively and predicated relative to the individual who the statements is indexed to. However, in their ignorance of such vague application of the predicate, they use it in an objective manner which makes no sense whatsoever (if we define “subjective” as the dependence of a mind, and “objective” otherwise as the independence of a mind).

In the philosophy forum, we should expect to observe two things regarding vagueness and ambiguity. First, a far more extensive, interdisciplinary vocabulary as compared to common language users by virtue of the scope and breadth of philosophy upon all domains of research. Second, an intense concern for how we apply logic consistently as we use language which accurately represents the information we intend to communicate in our legal, political, and ethical discourse, as well as a disciplined, systematic approach to minimize our dependence of interpretation regarding the information we encode into signals which we subsequently transmit via linguistic messaging insofar as the abstracted meanings allowed of such messages, once the signals are received and information is decoded, is of limited variation, if not precisely defined.

Precisely defined means that the terms we use are not vague to the point of obfuscation, nor are they ambiguous to the point of equivocation. This means that if one intends to encode information onto a linguistic vehicle in the form the sentence “Numbers are real” that one makes sure to define terms such as “numbers” and “real”. This is important because if we define “numbers” as abstract entities which act as variables representing a quantity, and define “real” by conventional standards as that which is true, which subsequently is defined as that which comports to the state of affairs, we then realize that the actual truth value of the statement is a function of the way the world is (according to correspondence theories of truth). In other words, it is a description of the nature of reality — of that which exists in the world, not as a mere being, as such can be fictitious entities, but rather as a thing the truth of which is obtained by its very existence in the world.

Therefore, the sentence “Numbers are real” expresses a statement which makes a claim about the nature of reality. In philosophy, such claims are metaphysical, and so the truth value of such a statement refers to the metaphysical concept of “truth”. However, if the statement was framed a little differently, so as to claim “I know that numbers are real” then the issue becomes whether or not the subject knows the truth value of a statement making a metaphysical claim, and thus it becomes a claim about the nature of knowledge rather than of reality. As such, the sentence would be considered a statement referring to the epistemological concept of “truth”. Sentences expressing statements which make a claim about what is true are metaphysical, whereas sentences expressing statements making claims about what one knows is true are epistemological.

These are just a few examples of how philosophical discourse has both an increased complexity, thus increased proclivity towards ambiguity and vagueness, and an increased need for the disambiguation of the semantic structure and content of words and sentences, the disequivocation of border line case predicates, and the intensification of meaning without a proliferation of redundancies.

To review:

The meaning of an undefined term is wholly dependent upon the interpretation of the reader. A bayesian approach would lead us to infer that terms are most likely to be interpreted in their most common usage. Admittedly, as members of the philosophy forum, we can presume a higher awareness of, not only the vagueness and ambiguity which plagues the communication of common language users, but also of the interdisciplinary specificity, and controversy in defining philosophically diverse terms. This in-itself, however, offers little aid for the meaningless use of undefined terms in philosophical discourse.

In fact, if we don’t take the time to clarify our use of a term and employ it consistently throughout our discourse, then a higher awareness of vagueness, ambiguity, specificity, and generality of terms will only serve to further obfuscate the semantics of our discourse rather than provide any elucidation. With the realization of vague, ambiguous, discipline specific, generalized or otherwise controversially defined terms, we only increase the diversity, and thus the complexity of our meanings.

To increase the semantic complexity of our discourse without proper clarification or specification of the terms therein, is analogous to increasing the terrain complexity of a geographical location, while providing no additional map to guide us through. How can a discussion about such things as God, reality, consciousness, truth, morality—or even unspecified subsets of ideological or philosophical subjects such as liberalism or realism, have sufficient meaning in the absence of precise definitions?

In conclusion, since we can only share our meaning through the way we use a term, and better yet, if we provide a definition for key terms we are using in our discourse, then we, especially us engaged in philosophical discourse, must be more attentive to possible alternative interpretations, and be far more scrupulous in our efforts to minimize them.

Comments (47)

Outlander October 04, 2021 at 08:37 #603563
Well written, can't say I came across anything disagreeable.

Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
Did they use a telescope to see the neighbors down the street? Did they see the neighbors down the street holding a telescope? Was it the neighbors next-door who were seen down the street, or was it the neighbors who stay down the street?


Not sure if this is still "bayesian", admittedly I'm not familiar with the term, but context is key. Take the sentence in your example "I saw the neighbors down the street with a telescope". What are we talking about? Was it some stranger who just walks up to me and blurts that out? Or were we discussing our shared interest in astronomy or perhaps living in an age of heliocentric prosecution? Depending on the answer, the context becomes quite clear, at least reasonable enough to assume.

Every piece of knowledge we have was prefaced by a question we or someone before us once asked. Questions make the world go 'round. If you can't ask questions about a statement, it's safe to say the source knows far less than they attempt to present. Kinda like an intelligent bird that can "speak".

Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
How can a discussion about such things as God, reality, consciousness, truth, morality—or even unspecified subsets of ideological or philosophical subjects such as liberalism or realism, have sufficient meaning in the absence of precise definitions?


Easy. It's simply sufficient. Not to be coy or snark but it makes you tilt your head in thought and perhaps smile and nod. Absolute meaning, or universal consensus as a realistic and subjective compromise, is what cannot be reached so easily. Not without valid criticism at least.

Example, you know what you wrote and believe it to be coherent, as do I. That's well enough and much better even than if your post was about something like say, chocolate cake and it's gravitational affect on chickens, for example.
Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 09:10 #603575
My first take on your post is that this is a two-bladed knife.
As Mario Bunge points out in his book "Philosophy in Crisis." and his 10 criticisms of contemporary academic philosophy, definitions are the weak link in the "philosophical" chain.
Philosophers are either Obsessed with Language too much over Solving Real-World Problems resulting to Insular Obscurity or they suffer from the Ivory Tower Syndrome(rejection any all inputs from outside experts or departments) resulting to using definitions that have nothing to do with the actual phenomenon.
Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 09:20 #603580
Reply to Outlander
[i]-" How can a discussion about such things as God, reality, consciousness, truth, morality—or even unspecified subsets of ideological or philosophical subjects such as liberalism or realism, have sufficient meaning in the absence of precise definitions? — Cartesian trigger-puppets


Easy. It's simply sufficient. Not to be coy or snark but it makes you tilt your head in thought and perhaps smile and nod. Absolute meaning, or universal consensus as a realistic and subjective compromise, is what cannot be reached so easily. Not without valid criticism at least."[/i]

-No it isn't sufficient.In all philosophical discussions the first thing the two sides should do is to present their definitions and reach an agreement.
For my limited personal experience on concepts like consciousness, any meaningful conversation is impossible. Everyone holds a different definition that has nothing to do with the actual phenomenon and most of the times definitions are an existential claim on their own, not an actual description of what we are trying to explain.
i.e. I have never met a single interlocutor interested on consciousness that has done his epistemology and is aware of the official scientific definition of the term. So this vague situation with definitions is a catalyst for Pseudo philosophy to parade as actual Philosophy.
In my opinion most people use their definitions to describe their ontological presuppositions....not as a direct and accurate description of the phenomenon they are trying to explain.


Outlander October 04, 2021 at 10:36 #603608
Reply to Nickolasgaspar

Fair enough. Let's go beyond an example and see, explore the phenomenon as you say. What's your definition (and relevant examples) of what is and what is not consciousness and what is compatible if not identical and what is contradictory to my own. I'll start I suppose.

What is consciousness:

The ability or nature to identify oneself as an independent and free agent apart and distinct from other beings able to distinguish some sense of time and therefore "life" or "reality (ie. past, present, future). With the personal stipulation of being organic. Not all agree will agree on that last part

What is conscious:

- A mentally unafflicted human person of reasonable age
- Intelligent animals

What is not conscious:

- A highly intelligent AI system following currently non-existent and hypothetical coding that just so happens to perfectly mimic the human brain and its functions
- A single celled organism such as amoeba
TheMadFool October 04, 2021 at 11:14 #603615
Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
Vagueness and ambiguity affect our ability to evaluate the meaning of the information contained in a sentence or a word, thus rendering it logically impossible to determine the truth-value of any statement thereby expressed.


Problem

Vagueness: Fuzziness of meaning [disagreement, no fallacy though]

Ambiguity: Distinct multiple meanings [equivocation fallacy]

Remedy

Define your terms clearly [explicate which meaning you want to talk about for ambiguity and use precising definitions for vagueness]
TheMadFool October 04, 2021 at 11:15 #603616
Quoting Nickolasgaspar
definitions are the weak link in the "philosophical" chain.


:up:
Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 11:28 #603618
Reply to Outlander
I find your example really useful to explain my objections on how definitions are used.
That said, I don't imply that your definitions are necessary wrong. I am only pointing out that a definition not only has to describe the phenomenon in question, but the descriptions also needs to be practical, meaning that it can not be shared by different phenomena.
This is a quality that I might have forgotten to stress in my previous comments.

So before I address your definition, I will post the current scientific definition on consciousness so that we can contrast yours or any other that might be shared in this thread.
"Consciousness is an arousal and awareness of environment and self, which is achieved through action of the ascending reticular activating system (ARAS) on the brain stem and cerebral cortex."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3722571/
I would also add, since this definition only addresses the area that enables this mental property, that the content in those conscious experience is provided through action of the Central Lateral Thalamus (the part responsible for connecting and introducing memory, symbolic language, reasoning, pattern recognition etc in our conscious states from other areas of the brain).
https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/tiny-brain-area-could-enable-consciousness

So this is our current scientific understand that Mark Solmes includes in his latest Theory of Consciousness(Founder of Neuropsychoanalysi).(For those who are interested on the subject, since we are not going to discuss it anymore in here).

Now before breaking down your definition I will ask for a clarification:
You wrote:"The ability or nature to identify oneself as an independent and free agent apart..."
Is that an "or" or an "of" (ability of nature).

Wayfarer October 04, 2021 at 11:36 #603622
Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
This is important because if we define “numbers” as abstract entities which act as variables representing a quantity, and define “real” by conventional standards as that which is true, which subsequently is defined as that which comports to the state of affairs, we then realize that the actual truth value of the statement is a function of the way the world is (according to correspondence theories of truth).


'Real' may alternatively be understood as 'that which is' or 'what truly is'. It doesn't necessarily pertain only to propositions or statements, especially in this case, which is a discussion about the nature of something, namely, numbers.

Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
In philosophy, such claims are metaphysical...


Indeed, and this particular claim is at the basis of the debate about mathematical realism, a.k.a. mathematical platonism, which, according to the Stanford Encylopedia of Philosophy article on that subject:

has considerable philosophical significance. If the view is true, it will put great pressure on the physicalist idea that reality is exhausted by the physical. For platonism entails that reality extends far beyond the physical world and includes objects which aren’t part of the causal and spatiotemporal order studied by the physical sciences. Mathematical platonism, if true, will also put great pressure on many naturalistic theories of knowledge. For there is little doubt that we possess mathematical knowledge. The truth of mathematical platonism would therefore establish that we have knowledge of abstract (and thus causally inefficacious) objects. This would be an important discovery, which many naturalistic theories of knowledge would struggle to accommodate.

Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 11:42 #603625
Reply to TheMadFool

-"Problem
Vagueness: Fuzziness of meaning [disagreement, no fallacy though]"

-I will be honest, I wasn't aware of it...I just searched it.
https://www.fallacyfiles.org/vaguenes.html
I intuitively use the term "fallacious argument from ....salad bar" on interlocutors who tend to use vague language.

The points that makes yours is:
-"The fallacy of Vagueness comes about when the appearance of cogency of an argument depends upon vagueness in its terms.
The mere fact of vagueness is not sufficient to justify an accusation of fallacy, but it is sometimes a logical boobytrap which can cause the unsuspecting person to fall into fallacious reasoning."

So again we are dealing with a slippery slope.
Either way vagueness renders impossible the evaluation of an arguments as valid or sound. In my opinion its either an indication of dishonesty or inability of expression or fundamental lack of understanding of a concept. All three cases are reasons to reject vague definitions or arguments.
Outlander October 04, 2021 at 12:05 #603633
Quoting Nickolasgaspar
You wrote:"The ability or nature to identify oneself as an independent and free agent apart..."
Is that an "or" or an "of" (ability of nature).


Or. Which does confusingly imply there's a state of non-consciousness compared to a consciousness that one must heh consciously "activate" whereas nature is just the simple tendency to with or without said intent. I suppose such wording leaves both bases covered.
TheMadFool October 04, 2021 at 12:10 #603639
Reply to Nickolasgaspar Vagueness fallacy? If the term/word itself is vague, how could I be guilty of committing a fallacy? It's clearly not my fault.
Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 12:16 #603643
Reply to TheMadFool well I guess this is the job of any interlocutor ...to provide the most suitable and clear definition in his attempt to remove any vagueness from the term he uses.
Recycling a vague definition and pretend it is adequate enough to start a conversation on it...that is an issue.
I can only speak for my self but I always try to include empirical foundations in all my definitions on abstract concepts...as concrete as a definition of a chair.
TheMadFool October 04, 2021 at 12:30 #603647
Quoting Nickolasgaspar
well I guess this is the job of any interlocutor ...to provide the most suitable and clear definition in his attempt to remove any vagueness from the term he uses.
Recycling a vague definition and pretend it is adequate enough to start a conversation on it...that is an issue.
I can only speak for my self but I always try to include empirical foundations in all my definitions on abstract concepts...as concrete as a definition of a chair


Come to think of, I think you're right, vagueness might lead to a verbal disputes. For example:

Ken is tall & Ken is short [a contradiction but not actually since tallness & shortness are vague]
unenlightened October 04, 2021 at 13:48 #603669
I always refer such discussions to Ogden and Richards. A look at chapter 6 will be most helpful in elucidating the scope and application of 'definition', a term that has not yet been defined in this thread.

After a discussion of the definition of 'beauty', there is a review of the uses at that time made of the term 'meaning' in academia from philosophy to psychology and beyond. And at last chapter 9 produces the 16 main definitions (not counting slight variants) favoured by "reputable students of Meaning".

Carry on from there until you have either decided you can manage without definitions, or died of despair.


Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 14:15 #603676
Reply to unenlightened
Define=explain what you mean by that word.
Definition= your explanation on what you mean by that word.
This is the only definition we need to start a conversation.
Whether someone's explanation qualifies as meaningful ....this is what we are discussing here.
unenlightened October 04, 2021 at 16:28 #603738
Quoting Nickolasgaspar
Define=explain what you mean by that word.


Explain what you mean by "mean".
frank October 04, 2021 at 16:35 #603744
Reply to unenlightened

:grin: I'm not sure what you mean by "explain."
unenlightened October 04, 2021 at 16:40 #603746
Reply to frank I mean what he meant.
Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 18:05 #603795
Reply to unenlightened
if you explain the meaning of the term......cynicism
Deleted User October 04, 2021 at 18:07 #603797
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
unenlightened October 04, 2021 at 18:11 #603799
Quoting Nickolasgaspar
if you explain the meaning of the term......cynicism


As far as I can tell, 'cynicism' in this context is an accusation you are levelling at me, as a way of evading the obvious difficulty of actually following the project recommended in the op. But read the link and get back to me. It's a classic of modern philosophy, and I have it on my shelf.
T Clark October 04, 2021 at 18:36 #603814
Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
In the philosophy forum, we should expect to observe two things regarding vagueness and ambiguity. First, a far more extensive, interdisciplinary vocabulary as compared to common language users by virtue of the scope and breadth of philosophy upon all domains of research.


This is exactly what we don't need. There is already too much gobbledegook jargon in philosophy. Every philosopher or aspirant to the throne wants to coin new words or change the meaning of old ones. This is at the heart of much of the ambiguity you are arguing against. To overstate the case a bit - if you can't say it in everyday language, you don't understand it. Jargon rarely clarifies.

As for the rest... You could have laid out the problem in two paragraphs but you used 15. A lot of people didn't read it. You know - tl;dr. Using as few words as possible is just as important as using the right words. Your argument could have been a lot clearer, less ambiguous, if you'd made the post a lot shorter.

TL;DR means "too long, didn't read."
T Clark October 04, 2021 at 18:40 #603816
Quoting Outlander
Absolute meaning, or universal consensus as a realistic and subjective compromise, is what cannot be reached so easily.


Agreed, but if you, as the original poster, define your terms carefully at the beginning, specify that that is the sense which will be used in the discussion, and then ride heard on the discussion to keep it on track, a lot of the problems many, many, many of the posts on this thread have could be greatly reduced. That is the responsibility of the original poster. If you don't do that, don't complain about it later.
Nickolasgaspar October 04, 2021 at 20:03 #603847
Reply to unenlightened
?ah...I don't think so.
My remark was irrelevant to the OP. I will continue my discussion on it soon. You were asking definitions about the words I use and I just asked your definition about the nature of your questions.
Cartesian trigger-puppets October 04, 2021 at 22:10 #603902
Reply to Outlander

Quoting Outlander
Did they use a telescope to see the neighbors down the street? Did they see the neighbors down the street holding a telescope? Was it the neighbors next-door who were seen down the street, or was it the neighbors who stay down the street?
— Cartesian trigger-puppets

Not sure if this is still "bayesian", admittedly I'm not familiar with the term, but context is key. Take the sentence in your example "I saw the neighbors down the street with a telescope". What are we talking about? Was it some stranger who just walks up to me and blurts that out? Or were we discussing our shared interest in astronomy or perhaps living in an age of heliocentric prosecution? Depending on the answer, the context becomes quite clear, at least reasonable enough to assume.


What I mean by a bayesian approach is simply my assigning a prior distribution of the overall probability that the meaning of a common term is likely to be understood based on my personal observation and the expert opinions of lexicographers. The example is meant to illustrate the problem with the syntax of a sentence out of a given context. Your response is appropriate in seeking clarification by requesting for additional context. This is my point. We need to do more of this.

Quoting Outlander
How can a discussion about such things as God, reality, consciousness, truth, morality—or even unspecified subsets of ideological or philosophical subjects such as liberalism or realism, have sufficient meaning in the absence of precise definitions?
— Cartesian trigger-puppets

Easy. It's simply sufficient. Not to be coy or snark but it makes you tilt your head in thought and perhaps smile and nod. Absolute meaning, or universal consensus as a realistic and subjective compromise, is what cannot be reached so easily. Not without valid criticism at least.


I’m not suggesting a need for absolute meaning, or universal consensus, but rather to understand what it is you mean when you use a given term. For example, consider the term God. If you use such a term, then I will no doubt request clarification as to what it is you mean when you use it. If you respond by defining God as “A conscious and interacting being who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent,” then I would express disbelief in the existence of such of being as the traits you have assigned to it are mutually incompatible and logically impossible to possess. On the other hand, if you define God as”Whatever force brought the universe and into being,” then I would be skeptical (I see no evidence suggesting the universe had a beginning, for all we know the Big Bang, if it did happen, could of been a mere event rather than a beginning) but neither hold a position affirming that such a God exists, or existed, is true, nor one denying it. Alternatively, however, if you define God simply in somewhat pantheistic terms as “The totality of the universe,” then I would of course agree with you that, by your definition, the existence of such a God is true.
Cartesian trigger-puppets October 04, 2021 at 23:00 #603927
Reply to Wayfarer

Quoting Wayfarer
This is important because if we define “numbers” as abstract entities which act as variables representing a quantity, and define “real” by conventional standards as that which is true, which subsequently is defined as that which comports to the state of affairs, we then realize that the actual truth value of the statement is a function of the way the world is (according to correspondence theories of truth).
— Cartesian trigger-puppets

'Real' may alternatively be understood as 'that which is' or 'what truly is'. It doesn't necessarily pertain only to propositions or statements, especially in this case, which is a discussion about the nature of something, namely, numbers.


I think that both ‘that which is’ or ‘what truly is' are examples of vagueness to the point of meaninglessness. They are of course metaphysical by virtue of the predicate “is” just as the predicate “is known” from “what is known” is of course epistemological. I am not making a claim that ‘Real’ pertains only to propositions or statements, but in the context of the OP we are concerned with the meanings of terms insofar as they can have logic applied to the statements containing them so that the truth value of the statement can be known. My example definitions of “that which is true,” “that which comports to the state of affairs,” and “the way the world is” does not seem to be limited to only pertain to propositions, at least to me. In the context of the paragraph we are focusing on a statement which contains the term ‘Real,’ however.

I’m a bit confused, actually. In the paragraph, we are analyzing the statement “Numbers are real” breaking down and defining the constituent terms, and pointing out that the sentence expresses a statement which makes a metaphysical claim. I’m not using these terms as a pejorative or anything. I find metaphysics and the philosophy of mathematics interesting. I interpret you as making an objection. If so, could you clarify what it is?
Wayfarer October 04, 2021 at 23:13 #603934
Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
. I’m not using these terms as a pejorative or anything. I find metaphysics and the philosophy of mathematics interesting. I interpret you as making an objection. If so, could you clarify what it is?


I didn't take it as pejorative. Your prose is a model of clarity. Will reply later.
Cartesian trigger-puppets October 04, 2021 at 23:34 #603938
Reply to T Clark

Quoting T Clark
In the philosophy forum, we should expect to observe two things regarding vagueness and ambiguity. First, a far more extensive, interdisciplinary vocabulary as compared to common language users by virtue of the scope and breadth of philosophy upon all domains of research.
— Cartesian trigger-puppets

This is exactly what we don't need. There is already too much gobbledegook jargon in philosophy. Every philosopher or aspirant to the throne wants to coin new words or change the meaning of old ones. This is at the heart of much of the ambiguity you are arguing against. To overstate the case a bit - if you can't say it in everyday language, you don't understand it. Jargon rarely clarifies.


I never said that we ‘need’ it, in fact, I gave no evaluation for it at all. I merely said that we should expect to find it. I attempt to discuss philosophy with as little jargon as possible but using strictly everyday language means swapping out concise philosophical terms requires swapping in a long and elaborate essays describing the concise philosophical term as a thesis in everyday language. You can’t have it both ways. It’s either concise with maximal meanings packed into specialized philosophical terminology, or it is wordy by virtue of unpacking the meanings of specialized philosophical terms into broad definitions which only use language that is accessible to everyone.

(A fair criticism if you are referring to my personal writing skills. Perhaps i should outline my post like an essay rather than just attempt to ramble in such a way that stays close to the topic)
Banno October 04, 2021 at 23:45 #603942


Reply to Cartesian trigger-puppets Agreeing on a use for our terms is the very stuff of philosophy.

Beginning with definitions is expecting to start at the finish.
T Clark October 05, 2021 at 00:07 #603944
Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
I attempt to discuss philosophy with as little jargon as possible but using strictly everyday language means swapping out concise philosophical terms requires swapping in a long and elaborate essays describing the concise philosophical term as a thesis in everyday language. You can’t have it both ways.


I don't agree. I, like you, try to use as little jargon as possible. When I do use if, I feel like I've failed. If I need to use language that most of us here won't be familiar with, it makes sense for me to spend a little time laying out the framework I am talking about. The "concise philosophical terms" you're talking about rarely mean the same thing to everyone in the discussion. You're going to have to define them anyway, at least here on the forum. I thought that was one of the things you are recommending.

Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
A fair criticism if you are referring to my personal writing skills.


No, I wasn't criticizing your writing skills. You are very articulate.
180 Proof October 05, 2021 at 01:54 #603960
Quoting Banno
Agreeing on a use for our terms is the very stuff of philosophy.

Beginning with definitions is expecting to start at the finish.

In other words, play the same language-game as the other player/s.
T Clark October 05, 2021 at 02:06 #603962
Quoting Banno
Agreeing on a use for our terms is the very stuff of philosophy.

Beginning with definitions is expecting to start at the finish.


Typical Banno bologna. He transports into a discussion, tosses his usual smarty pants bullshit, then transports out without contributing anything substantive.
Banno October 05, 2021 at 02:58 #603976
Quoting 180 Proof
In other words, play the same language-game as the other player/s.


Or if you choose to play a different game, do it explicitly.

Reply to T Clark Cheers.
180 Proof October 05, 2021 at 04:08 #603988
Quoting Banno
Or if you choose to play a different game, do it explicitly.

:up:
jgill October 05, 2021 at 04:20 #603996
Quoting T Clark
Using as few words as possible is just as important as using the right words. Your argument could have been a lot clearer, less ambiguous, if you'd made the post a lot shorter.


Philosophers love using words, the arrows in their quivers. And some, perhaps most, enjoy reading lengthy treatises. As an olde math person I admire brevity and conciseness, so, like T. Clark, I failed to make it through the OP, which, nevertheless, seems very well-written.

The premises of many philosophical efforts frequently seem vague, to the point where, for example, the word "being" triggers my full retreat. "Metaphysics" also is confusing, and I am curious what Stanford's metaphysical laboratory can produce as enlightenment. Mostly it's just me.
TheMadFool October 05, 2021 at 08:21 #604065
Quoting jgill
I admire brevity and conciseness


Brevity is the soul of wit!

Quoting jgill
math person


In English: The sum of two thousand six hundred fifty-seven and two million nine hundred sixty-eight thousand two hundred eighteen is two million nine hundred seventy thousand eight hundred seventy-five.

Character count: 190

In math speak: [math]2,657 + 2,968,218 = 2,970,875[/math]

Character count: 25
Daemon October 05, 2021 at 09:13 #604070
Quoting Banno
Beginning with definitions is expecting to start at the finish.


Interesting thing about definitions: in order to know if you have the correct definition, you need to already understand the thing you are defining.
Outlander October 05, 2021 at 09:54 #604076
Reply to T Clark

Yeah but there's just something almost ethereal, mystical even about a sentence or piece of literature that you can ascertain completely different yet equally profound meanings from by simply reading them once more.

Regrettably I'm unable to come up with one after a few seconds but when these aren't unintentional, they're the cream of the crop as far as literature goes in my view. Unintentional ones often become the butt of jokes (ie. "Disneyland Left" joke) or even the subject of legends (ie. "Pardon Impossible To be sent to Siberia"). Not just simple metaphors or profane and juvenile double entendres or 'squeezing blood from a stone' as it were, rather true literary craftsmanship dripping with wisdom. It's becoming rarer and rarer these days. For example, I've yet to think of or even recall one.. though it may just be the lateness of the hour.
T Clark October 05, 2021 at 16:32 #604162
Quoting jgill
The premises of many philosophical efforts frequently seem vague, to the point where, for example, the word "being" triggers my full retreat. "Metaphysics" also is confusing, and I am curious what Stanford's metaphysical laboratory can produce as enlightenment.


Funny - "metaphysics" and "being" are two of my favorite philosophical words. Because they both tend to mean different things to different people, I generally give a brief summary of what they mean to me when I'm discussing them in a post.
T Clark October 05, 2021 at 16:35 #604164
Quoting Outlander
Yeah but there's just something almost ethereal, mystical even about a sentence or piece of literature that you can ascertain completely different yet equally profound meanings from by simply reading them once more.


Perhaps for literature, but not, generally, for philosophy. As somebody somewhere once wrote - Clarity is so rare, it is often mistaken for truth..
Cartesian trigger-puppets October 06, 2021 at 00:55 #604310
Reply to T Clark

Quoting T Clark
The "concise philosophical terms" you're talking about rarely mean the same thing to everyone in the discussion. You're going to have to define them anyway, at least here on the forum. I thought that was one of the things you are recommending.


Yes, I am recommending just that. However, this, at least to me, would require additional wordiness inasmuch as it requires, as you say, laying out the framework for, subsequently defining, or altogether avoiding such specialized philosophical terms (jargon), which is the other objection you’re raising. I just don’t see a way to satisfy both of these objections (namely, wordiness and jargon) as they seem to be mutually incompatible. Consider the following examples for a better illustration of what I’m saying:

1. (Concise paragraph including specialized philosophical terms.)

A. J. Ayers’ arguments for non-cognitivism mainly focus on the inability to determine truth value with normative sentences such as “Killing is wrong”. Ayer believed that normative sentences aren’t truth-apt, but meaningless. He subscribed to emotivism, a metaethical view which claims that a normative sentence such as “Killing is wrong” does not express a proposition, notwithstanding the speaker’s intention to perform a declarative speech act. Though the speaker intends for the sentence to express a declaration, what is actually performed is an exclamation expressing the emotional attitudes of the speaker. Therefore, according to Ayer, the burden of proof rests on the cognitivist to substantiate the claim that normative sentences not only express emotive exclamations but truth-apt declarations as well.

2. (Same content as paragraph one, but in simpler terms, and written without assuming the reader has philosophical background knowledge.)

Sir Alfred Jules Ayer, most commonly known as A.J., was a 20th century English philosopher best known for advancing logical positivism (an idea developed by members of the Vienna Circle which considered philosophical problems meaningless unless they could be solved through logical analysis), reasoned that sentences which express a claim that something is morally good or bad, right and wrong, or to have some other moral evaluation, such as “Killing is wrong,” do not express statements capable of being either true or false. Ayer believed that sentences which express a value judgment about whether a situation is desirable or undesirable are incapable of being true or false. This is to say that such language is not to be taken literally as true or false descriptions of the world.

Ayer subscribed to a worldview which took a perspective beyond that of moral theories and practical applications, considering whether or not we can have moral knowledge of moral truths or rather only moral feelings and attitudes, and which aims to understand the meaning of moral language as compared with other more descriptive forms of language. From this perspective, he began to regard language which expressed an assessment of something as good or bad, an action as right or wrong, a person as good or bad, or a situation as just or unjust, as expressions of feeling or attitude and prescriptions of action rather than assertions or reports of the actual world.

Through this holistic moral perspective, he came to conclude that whenever a speaker uses a sentence such as “Killing is wrong” though they use it in a literal sense which seems to denote something objective, which can be perceived through visible concepts that reference a specific person, place, or thing identifiable as an actual person, place or thing in the real world, they do not. What the sentence actually expresses is a projection of the speaker’s emotional states and feelings which is also capable of arousing the emotional states and feelings of others. It is not capturing something of the real world in which we can verify through observation.

Therefore, Ayers concludes that since it is obvious that such sentences express projections of the speakers emotional states and feelings, and not so obvious that they express descriptions of a domain of facts existing independently of our subjective thoughts and feelings, that his position needs no defense. It is those who claim otherwise, Ayers argues, who must prove that such sentences are capable of reporting something which can be objectively verified to be true or false, or to report a fact of the world. Without evidence, there is no reason to believe that sentences of value or moral evaluations express descriptions of facts existing independently of our thoughts and feelings, nor should they accordingly be thought of as capable of reporting that which can be objectively true or false — though, as a linguistic expression, they purport to do just that.

If you made it thus far, hope this illustrates my point. It certainly kept me from boredom for over an hour.
Richard B October 06, 2021 at 02:58 #604339
I think a simple passage from Wittgenstein’s Philosophical Investigations can be a reply to the sentiment being explored in this discussion: “71. One might say that the concept ‘game’ is a concept with blurred edges. “But is a blurred concept a concept at all?” Is an indistinct photograph a picture of a person at all” Is it even always an advantage to replace an indistinct picture by a sharp one? Isn’t the indistinct one often exactly what we need?”
Benj96 October 07, 2021 at 11:23 #604775
Reply to Cartesian trigger-puppets

Language is not perfectly definable because it isn’t perfectly qualifiable. For example if I were to give the best definition for an apple. I would also have to perfectly define the component words (for example “fruit”, “tree”, “edible” etc) that I used to make the definition. Then I would have to define the words I used to define those ones and so on ad Infinitum.

Language relies on vagueness and approximation of experience between two individuals because in order to use your exact precise “personal language” - ie that based off your personal experiences and knowledge, in the exact same way as you, one would have to be an identical copy of you - identical neural pattern/ thought processes with no more, less or qualitatively different knowledge whatsoever.

In many ways this is why mathematics is a more perfect/ precision language than spoken languages as it isn’t as subjective. Numbers are numbers. It’s not a debate and the functions we can apply to them are consistent and objective regardless of where you come from or your background.

Defining concepts, ideas and terms in a discussion is important of course but it is inversely proportional to the fluidity/ progression of said discussion, as extensively debating definitions is tangential to the original discussion.
Nickolasgaspar October 07, 2021 at 12:14 #604787
Reply to tim wood
-"Definition as navigational aid, not as destination. Meaning as destination. "
Well definitions should be based on direct descriptions. Only then they can be used as navigational aid.
Meshed up definitions can be equally damaging to definitions promoting a "destination".
Cartesian trigger-puppets October 10, 2021 at 23:21 #605707
Reply to Benj96

Quoting Benj96
Language is not perfectly definable because it isn’t perfectly qualifiable. For example if I were to give the best definition for an apple. I would also have to perfectly define the component words (for example “fruit”, “tree”, “edible” etc) that I used to make the definition. Then I would have to define the words I used to define those ones and so on ad Infinitum.


Im not saying that our language needs to be perfectly definable but rather it needs to be precisely defined insofar as the terms we use are not vague to the point of obfuscation, or ambiguous to the point of equivocation. For example, consider how the vagueness of the following statement obfuscates its meaning: “They are down the road a ways”. (Who is ‘they,’ which direction is ‘down,’ which ‘road,’ exactly, and how far is ‘a ways’?). Moreover, as an alternative example, consider how the ambiguity of the statement “Only man is rational” could be equivocated as a result of the word ‘man’ used in multiple senses (‘human’ or ‘male’) within the following argument:

P1) If the only rational beings are man [human], and a woman is not a man [male], then a woman is not a rational being;

P2) A woman is not a man [male];

C) Therefore, woman are not rational beings.

I am only arguing for more clarity and intelligibility in our use of language to the extent that we reduce vagueness resulting from omitted contextual specificities, and to properly disambiguate our language in cases where a variety of known and reasonable interpretations (e.g., man as ‘male’ or ‘human’) are possible. This does not require us to define ‘man’ in terms of composition resulting in a mereological infinite regress (organ system, tissues, cells, proteins, amino acids, molecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles (hadrons, such as protons and neutrons, with emergent mass due to the binding energy of their component quarks), and quantum fields (a vacuum consisting of only fundamental physical forces); nor in terms of total causality (it’s not necessary to postulate the Big Bang in order to infer that the existence of a given human is contingent upon their birth).

Quoting Benj96
In many ways this is why mathematics is a more perfect/ precision language than spoken languages as it isn’t as subjective. Numbers are numbers. It’s not a debate and the functions we can apply to them are consistent and objective regardless of where you come from or your background.


I agree that the language of mathematics is more precise and less susceptible to err in deriving classical quantities or quantum probability distributions. However, such equations can only take on a meaning beyond purely abstract quantities or probabilities when applied to individual objects and their shared properties within the actual world. This means that any mathematical description of the real world must necessarily comport to the relations of objects and their shared properties, which is dependent upon knowledge derived from a subjective interpretation of empirical observations (a posterior information), or otherwise dependent upon knowledge derived from subjective introspection (a priori information) which depends upon a background of knowledge based on a body of prior interpretations of empirical observations one has made over the entire duration of their experience.

In other words, we are subjects (that which observes) and the external world is the totality of objects (that which is observed). As subjects, we have a unique perspective, experience, and consciousness, from which we can form relations with entities (objects or other subjects) that exist outside of ourselves. However, the information we extract in relation to the external objects of this presupposed ‘objective’ reality is not directly obtained. Our sensory perceptions do not give us an immediate experience of reality, but rather our experience of reality is mediated through sensory neurons and other stimuli detecting physiological apparatus of the central nervous system. The brain integrates the received information from the stimuli of our environment in order to produce visual, haptic, auditory, olfactory, and gustatory representations of the external world. It is a fact that our physiology is sensitive to only a small fraction of the total range of stimuli produced by events occurring in the external world. For example, only a fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum is detected by our visual nervous system (about 0.0035 percent).

The world around us is saturated with electromagnetic energy (pulses of light waves that carry information across space). These electromagnetic waves vary in wavelength (distance between the crest (or peak) of one wave and the crest of the subsequent wave) from gamma waves measuring only a fraction of a millimeter in length, to radio waves measuring hundreds of kilometers. We are blind to the vast majority of this energy—detecting only the range from about 400 to 700 nanometers (billionths of a meter), thus referred to as the visible spectrum.

In considering just this piece of evidence alone, we can infer that the visual imagery experienced internally by our mind is produced by our brains interpretation of a small fraction of the total available information extracted from light, as a vehicle for transmitting such information, and therefore not only is this information mediated (indirectly perceived, nonobjective) by virtue of being filtered through networks of hundreds of billions of neurons interconnected and communicating to the brain, but also the amount of information which is accessible to us is vastly limited.

Any language which expresses information that is intelligible to a human being, as not only an observing subject, but an active agent who constructs a representation of reality that has been naturally selected by evolutionary processes which favor (obviously an anthropomorphized, metaphorical description here) maximizing genetic reproduction—and, to a lesser extent, survival, it follows, that such information must necessarily convey a meaning which depicts a world that can only exist through the lense of the human mind. If our ideas of the world are necessarily constrained to the lense of the human mind, then, in every way conceivable, the world as we know it to exist, cannot exist independent of the mind. Mind dependence is necessarily nonobjective, and thus an element of subjectivity will never be eliminated.

So, even in granting that mathematical descriptions of quantities or probabilities are, for sake of argument, objective; once applied to corresponding phenomena and symmetries of the external world of objects in a way intelligible to a subject, a least a proportion of the overall objectivity is diminished. Not to mention that numbers and sets are abstractions which in-and-of-themselves could be said to be dependent upon a mind. Platonic realism aside, it seems rather obvious, subsequent to minimal familiarity with scientific data and philosophical investigation, that without a subject there can be no object.
Wayfarer October 11, 2021 at 03:39 #605774
Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
'Real' may alternatively be understood as 'that which is' or 'what truly is'. It doesn't necessarily pertain only to propositions or statements, especially in this case, which is a discussion about the nature of something, namely, numbers.
— Wayfarer

I think that both ‘that which is’ or ‘what truly is' are examples of vagueness to the point of meaninglessness


The distinction I tried to introduce was the sense in which 'real' is understood as subject to the attainment of insight - grasping meaning or seeing what is real, not in a propositional sense, but in a noetic sense. Perhaps it's something like what Maritain means by the 'intuition of being'.

[quote=SEP; https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/maritain/#Meta]Metaphysical enquiry—the enquiry into being as being—is, Maritain says, a mystery; being is, for example, something that is “pregnant with intelligibility” and too “pure for our intellect” . Nevertheless, the mystery of being is an “intelligible mystery”, and Maritain holds that, unless one does metaphysics, one cannot be a philosopher; “a philosopher is not a philosopher unless he is a metaphysician”.

Philosophical reflection on being begins with the intuition of being, and Maritain insists that one needs this “eidetic” intuition for any genuine metaphysical knowledge (or insight) to be possible. The intuition of being that lies at the root of metaphysical enquiry is not that of “the vague being of common sense” but an “intellectual intuition” or grasp of “the act of existing”. [/quote]

Quoting Cartesian trigger-puppets
So, even in granting that mathematical descriptions of quantities or probabilities are, for sake of argument, objective; once applied to corresponding phenomena and symmetries of the external world of objects in a way intelligible to a subject, a least a proportion of the overall objectivity is diminished. Not to mention that numbers and sets are abstractions which in-and-of-themselves could be said to be dependent upon a mind. Platonic realism aside, it seems rather obvious, subsequent to minimal familiarity with scientific data and philosophical investigation, that without a subject there can be no object.


It's not that objectivity is 'diminished' but that it is only ever conditional in the first place - as you go on to say. Your conclusion 'without a subject there can be no object' is something I think is true, but far from being 'obvious' will often be vigorously contested, as it undermines scientific realism.

However I don't agree that this can be rationalised in evolutionary terms. I don't think epistemology ought to be subordinated to evolutionary theory, for reasons given in Thomas Nagel's essay, Evolutionary Naturalism and the Fear of Religion.
TheMadFool October 11, 2021 at 05:40 #605793
What if, just what if, ambiguity & vagueness aren't accidental? In other words, there's a rationale why some words/terms/phrases are vague and ambiguous. In such cases, we should allow language to, you know, do its thing instead of trying to restrict it by imposing rigorous criteria on the word usage. That's to say ambiguity and vagueness are a feature, not a bug of language. We should then use them to full effect instead of steering clear of them.