For most of us, music is mainly the experience of music, the time of hearing it. For musicians, the music is in their heads, with them. And no doubt most of us sometimes have a "song in our hearts," but no more as a musician does than most of us can run a sub-four-minute mile or a two-twenty marathon, or memorize and perform a syllable-perfect Shakespeare play. Which is to say that if nothing else, a solo classical performance is an exhibition of a world-class athleticism...
Hahn... about rendering the feeling in the music, seeking it, finding it, studying and understanding it, performing it.
As if, in going to church of a Sunday to hear a sermon, one encountered the voice of God itself!
Thanks, for this; an exceptionally thoughtful listening piece.
So far, I've only clicked on Lark Ascending. So beautiful, clear and uplifting.
***
Your 'Sunday church-going' reminded me of 'Eleanor Rigby' - I talked of here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/597807
Eleanor Rigby (Strings Only / Anthology 2 Version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZA6jtxtTfQ&t=0s
[The first time my ears were stretched open to each instrument playing; linking the score to the lyrics for a deeper meaning. From simply hearing it as a pop song in 1966 to a careful listening decades later. I am grateful to the OU for that. How many get the chance to learn how to listen to music ? At the same time as attempting to interpret the meaning of lyrics...]
***
Since way back then, I have come to a greater appreciation of the mind/body connection.
A holistic view, if you like.
Professor Wright introduces the course by suggesting that “listening to music” is not simply a passive activity one can use to relax, but rather, an active and rewarding process. He argues that by learning about the basic elements of Western classical music, such as rhythm, melody, and form, one learns strategies that can be used to understand many different kinds of music in a more thorough and precise way – and further, one begins to understand the magnitude of human greatness. Professor Wright draws the music examples in this lecture from recordings of techno music, American musical theater, and works by Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy and Strauss, in order to introduce the issues that the course will explore in more depth throughout the semester.
Deleted UserSeptember 20, 2021 at 16:41#5979340 likes
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Music is a presencing [...] the experience [...] the time of hearing it [...] , along with the conventions of the time
I think that at the time of presencing the composition in their minds most composers were keenly aware of the audience and as professionals needed to balance their own much further advanced musical intellect and the pedestrian listening public.
When emperor Joseph II allegedly yawned and later told Mozart that there were too many notes, to which Mozart asked 'which ones should I remove your majesty?', the emperor was not wrong and neither was Mozart. Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation. I'm the same way. Why did Ana Vidovic flick off that three-note figure repeatedly in an otherwise other-wordly Scarlatti sonata?
Tom StormSeptember 21, 2021 at 00:32#5981050 likes
People who listen to music (as opposed to merely hearing it - another topic) will have recognized that music and the interpretation of music, while seeming at first the same thing, indistinguishable, are two different things.
That's a significant point. Interpretations of a musical text can transform it in either direction. I love Richard Strauss' Four Last Songs, but it's the Jessie Norman 1983 Kurt Masur version that really transports me.
The significance of performance/interpretation reminds me of the joke about an insufferable ham actor doing Shakespeare in a theater in a city somewhere in the mid 20th century. His performance was so dire that the audience started booing him and throwing things. The actor turned to them and yelled, "Hey, don't blame me, I didn't write this shit!"
Deleted UserSeptember 21, 2021 at 01:34#5981450 likes
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Reply to tim wood
Your highlighting the importance of presence in music sparked thoughts in a number of directions. The prime focus should be on the essential personal subjective experience of one listener at an ideally live performance with a large audience also in attendance. This one-time experience of the weather, traffic, parking, cost, crowd, formality, location of seats, acoustics, the dispositions of human performers, and coughing strangers during quiet passages.
This is different from listening repeatedly to recorded performances with a fine headset. Recordings are comparative by their nature with so much more of the same or similar recordings readily available on youtube. Spontaneity is replaced with sober analysis off the computer. The Vidovic recital I meant is the recent one, starting at 41:39. My wife thinks it's the best she's ever heard. So do I, but all I could think of at the time were those muted notes. Sorry me.
But presence has other notable aspects. The performers make the music and not the composer. The composer is the beneficiary or victim of the instrumentalists. Performers work for years to hone fine details of their art to create the possibilities that only can come to fruition on stage in front of an audience or microphones. When that happens they also experience the presence of their efforts. I found a couple of oldies to compare: Heifetz, Ysaye, Hassid
Your highlighting the importance of presence in music sparked thoughts in a number of directions.
Likewise. Although I only responded to one aspect, I had been thinking of the complete interaction.
The whole process from beginning to end.
In addition, even as I learned how to listen more carefully to each instrument, I thought that too much objective analysis/criticism could spoil the subjective experience. As you say:
My wife thinks it's the best she's ever heard. So do I, but all I could think of at the time were those muted notes. Sorry me.
I wonder if rather than have ears wide open and alert, that it might be an idea to relax and close a little.
Be more laid back as if dreaming or in a relaxed, satisfied afterglow...
Just a thought.
***
[quote="magritte;598628" ]But presence has other notable aspects. The performers make the music and not the composer. The composer is the beneficiary or victim of the instrumentalists[/quote]
''Beneficiary or victim'. This sounds similar to foreign language translation and interpretation of a poem.
See @Olivier5 :
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/598381
"Yes I did translate it. Translating poems is always a treason though. As the Italians say: traduttore traditore."
It takes expertise to know the words, the context, feel the sense and share that experience. @Olivier5 did that :100:
[ We see the same in philosophy interpretations/arguments. Not mentioning troublesome Plato ! ]
***
The beauty of youtube is that we can listen to so many versions to compare and share.
And learn.
For example @tim wood's link:
Hilary Hahn: Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 1 in a nutshell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=015QVOO-5Ek
And this is what I enjoy about watching someone perform. I used to think that it was overly dramatic, and in some cases that's true. However, Hilary explained how Prokofiev linked in choreography not just in ballet but in the techniques. At times, the whole body has to move 'expanding and contracting..
Hilary calls the performance a 'wild ride'. From a very still start...
She inspires confidence.
So any 'performance anxiety' - I sometimes feel as a listener is kept to a minimum.
I can relax and simply appreciate. For now, at home.
Deleted UserSeptember 22, 2021 at 12:19#5987710 likes
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A composer, arguably, wrests it from the void, coalescing music into sound of instrument and voice...
Each then, poetry and music, brought out, somehow, from a primordial reality that, finished, just is the reality of the thing itself; dressed, then, in a clothing of performance. Granted that between two competent performances one may be more resonant with one auditor, another with another. But is the performance opaque, in a sense, or more transparent? I find myself returning to the transparency that allows a view of the music itself.
'Wrested from the void' ?
Brought out somehow...from a 'primordial reality' ?
I agree that the origin of any inspiration can be seen as mysterious - some say a gift from God.
However, I tend to think that it stems from the mind.
The origin of a human creation - or product of the creative process - starts with imagination.
A coalescing of ideas, senses - a way of seeing the potential to expand existing thoughts/dreams.
At a more basic level by playing around - as children do.
Play, performance, persona - the roles and masks - can be, as you suggest, transparent or opaque.
Why would you say that 'transparency' allows a view of the music itself ?
Are you relating this to the 'ego' of some performers which can overwhelm a piece ?
I agree that the aesthetics can be spoiled if the performer is distracting.
However, a degree of opaqueness is necessary if we are to suspend reality for a while, no ?
Escapism. Not just for the performer but for ourselves...it can enhance the experience.
...varieties of personas: those which are transparent (such as when a singer performs more or less as that singer) and those which are opaque (such as when a singer performs more or less as a fictional character). I also distinguish between performance personas and song personas. After introducing and elucidating these distinctions, I discuss ways in which they further inform aesthetic evaluation of such performances.
... During some eras of Bowie's prolific career—perhaps during his early days, as well as his later run of albums—Bowie performed somewhat consistently under what was either a transparent performance persona or a rather stable Bowie opaque performance persona. During other times, he would adopt opaque performance personas, such as Ziggy Stardust or the Thin White Duke. If, during his later career, Bowie were to perform a song such as the Ziggy?era “Moonage Daydream,” we can understand this as Bowie?qua?Bowie adopting a temporary Ziggy song persona. The best to way understand—and, hence, fully aesthetically engage with—Bowie's many performances, then, is to see him as a performer who frequently and freely cycled through transparent performance personas, opaque performance personas, and song personas, often layering them upon one another. It is to his credit as a singer and a performer that so many of his performances, filtered through persona atop persona, were such aesthetic successes.
Hilary calls the performance a 'wild ride'. From a very still start.
The wild ride also goes for the audience, especially if the performer is famous and the concert is highly anticipated. I often think that composing and performing are mostly technical with touches of creativity here and there but sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener.
Deleted UserSeptember 22, 2021 at 22:19#5990410 likes
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Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation.
That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances. The live performance does not have to be up to Carnegie Hall standards, but it should be reasonably competent. I've attended amateur / semi-professional performances that were very satisfactory concerts -- and yes, sometimes noticeably imperfect. That's fine. The thing is, hear music that is performed live, before a live audience.
Personally, I can't afford to regularly attend professional orchestra performances at Orchestra Hall, though when I do attend, it's worth the cost.
Deleted UserSeptember 23, 2021 at 04:32#5991270 likes
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Other sources are small community orchestras and church-sponsored performances of secular music. Costs have risen for everyone over the last 20 or 30 years and there are fewer outright free concerts than there used to be. Still, the cost of a community orchestra concert can be quite affordable.
TheMadFoolSeptember 23, 2021 at 05:31#5991330 likes
So, a lot's going on between composer, conductor, orchestra, soloist and so on. I didn't know music could be thaaaat complex. An eye-opener for me. Good to know.
Music is like religion then - what's meant, what's understood, what's practiced (performed) are all different in their own way.
Am I wrong or does religion have a lot to do with music?
The wild ride also goes for the audience, especially if the performer is famous and the concert is highly anticipated. I often think that composing and performing are mostly technical with touches of creativity here and there but sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener.
I've just listened to and watched an incredible performance, thanks to @tim wood for link in OP. *
This concert must have been SO 'highly anticipated' - given the timing and circumstances.
A lessening of covid restrictions which had affected/closed many art venues/gatherings in 2020.
Now, in 2021 - precautions still being taken with mask wearing and some social distancing.
The performer not only famous but with an attractive, sincere and beguiling personality.
I didn't know of her until this thread but have read more:
On playing Bach
In 1999 Hahn said that she played Bach more than any other composer and had played solo Bach pieces every day since she was eight.[8]
Bach is, for me, the touchstone that keeps my playing honest. Keeping the intonation pure in double stops, bringing out the various voices where the phrasing requires it, crossing the strings so that there are not inadvertent accents, presenting the structure in such a way that it's clear to the listener without being pedantic – one can't fake things in Bach, and if one gets all of them to work, the music sings in the most wonderful way.
—?Hilary Hahn, Saint Paul Sunday[48]
--------
*
Hilary Hahn /Paavo Järvi /GEPO - Sibelius: Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O65YBjweUPo&t=741s
Jean Sibelius (1865-1957) - Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (1905)
1. Allegro moderato (00:29)
2. Adagio di molto (18:10)
3. Allegro, ma non tanto (26:24)
Hilary Hahn, violin
Paavo Järvi, conductor
George Enescu Philharmonic Orchestra
Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation.
— magritte
That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances.
Yes. But as you say, there are now more obstacles than ever. It's not easy. Quoting Bitter Crank
Personally, I can't afford to regularly attend professional orchestra performances at Orchestra Hall, though when I do attend, it's worth the cost.
For me, right now, it would take something extraordinary to make it worthwhile.
I can hardly remember attending free/low cost smaller concerts when visiting London...such as:
https://www.stmartin-in-the-fields.org/whatson-event/concerts-by-candlelight/
Concerts cancelled in 2020 now rescheduled Quoting Concerts by Candlelight at St. Martin's
With over 50 concerts to choose from in the magnificent surroundings and acoustic of St Martin’s, there is no better time to rediscover the power and passion that only live performance offers.
--------
Having watched Hilary's performance and the effect not only on the audience but the members of the orchestra - there is a rapture which can't be captured simply by listening to a recording.
Even if the recording is of a live performance...
At the end of the 'Adagio di molto' - there is an amazing moment of silence before the audience seems to wake up and wonder should they applaud - would it break the spell...
Since 2016, she has piloted free concerts for parents with infants, a knitting circle, a community dance workshop, a yoga class and art students. She plans to continue these community-oriented concerts, encouraging people to combine live performances with their interests outside the concert hall and providing opportunities for parents to hear music with their infants, who might be barred from traditional concerts.
Thanks @tim wood for another extraordinary introduction... :sparkle:
However, I tend to think that it [music] stems from the mind.
— Amity
I inserted "music" into your quote. Do you suppose that composer's compositions are purely invented? I do not. Details, as allowed by the composition itself. But music qua, no. Maybe better if I call it the possibility of music as a particular piece.
I agree that the origin of any inspiration can be seen as mysterious - some say a gift from God.
However, I tend to think that it stems from the mind.
The origin of a human creation - or product of the creative process - starts with imagination.
A coalescing of ideas, senses - a way of seeing the potential to expand existing thoughts/dreams.
My 'it' referred to 'imagination' as the origin, not to the 'music' as you suggest 'arguably wrested from a void or primordial reality by the composers'.
So, What did you mean by that and How does any 'wresting' happen ?
I do not think we have anything worth disagreeing about, just rather two different approaches.
Well, there will always be different ways of thinking about an issue in the philosophy of music.
However, I am no expert and feelings of wonder evaporate when looking at the SEP article:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/music/
Do you suppose that composer's compositions are purely invented? I do not. Details, as allowed by the composition itself. But music qua, no. Maybe better if I call it the possibility of music as a particular piece.
Composer's compositions.
How is anything composed ?
Not pure invention - but inventiveness is part of it. Innovations. New ideas.
Otherwise music/poetry/art and philosophy would stay still. Dead.
Interesting to compare definitions of 'composition' and 'improvisation'.
... Richard Barrett goes on to say that his definition of improvisation as one way of composing, makes it clear that the two ways of creating music are in no way in opposition. Thus, composition can mean ”making music” and improvisation is a method for making music, in a spontaneous, real-time way.
Then, if ”composition” means ”music-making” and ”improvisation” means ”spontaneous music-making”, what is a useful word for the other main method of composition: ”Planning and notating how to make music in advance and have it executed at another point in time (possibly by musicians)”?
”Predetermined musical structuring or material” feels like a useful definition for me.
This material, which is usually notated in some way, is normally more or less similar from performance to performance, whereas free improvisations can, maybe even should, be very different.
I agree with Barrett’s definition, but there are some fundamental differences between what we normally associate with composition (predetermined structuring or material) and improvisation:
Improvisation is an ongoing dialogue, and is usually based on communication from the very moment it starts, with other improvisers and the audience. Composing music on paper is usually a solitary process until just before it is performed. There may be communication with the players and the composer in advance, and also when rehearsing the music, but the main form of communication is verbal or literary. In improvisation one communicates via musical sounds.
My knowledge and experience of composition is scant. Really not up to the task...
Hopefully, others will join in this discussion.
There is so much more to learn:
No one, composer or improviser, has ever created music out of nothing, without reference to what has gone before. Both improviser and composer build up a store of musical experience before creating something new, and that ‘something new’ is both related to and in some way different from what has gone before. Beethoven drew on the tradition handed down to him, arguably neither more nor less than did jazz saxophonist John Coltrane or Indian sitarist Pandit Ravi Shankar.
Hilary Hahn: Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades" in a nutshell (4:49)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICGFmN85J50
Here, Hilary talks about the interpretation as a 'blueprint' which is as close to the composer's 'emotional intention' as possible. To capture the initial feeling. She contrasts a potential dramatic, powerful and operatic way but recognises that this is not really how the composer 'moved through the world' and so
she chooses to express the openness and embracing of love...
Connecting with the composer and the audience.
It is moving to hear of the circumstances which led to this.
The composer had passed away before completion and premier.
According to Hilary, he had a warmth and spirituality - also haunted by its dark side in life and death; darkness and light.
Her short discussion is informative but also a temptation...
'Einojuhani Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades," is one of three pieces on her album “Paris,” recorded with Mikko Franck and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France. “Paris” is out now.
2.1 The Fundamentalist Debate
Musical works in the Western classical tradition admit of multiple instances (performances). Much of the debate over the nature of such works thus reads like a recapitulation of the debate over the “problem of universals”; the range of proposed candidates covers the spectrum of fundamental ontological theories. We might divide musical ontologists into the realists, who posit the existence of musical works, and the anti-realists, who deny their existence. Realism has been more popular than anti-realism, but there have been many conflicting realist views.
The SEP article lays out the difficulties of the subject, and this does not even acknowledge the role of the listener or the circumstances of the performance. Is this at a circus, parade, a concert in the park, or a funeral? To go beyond some vague definition for art and music, we really should attempt to limit philosophical discussion to ontologically manageable objects. While this is not the advertised topic of this thread, it is the underlying issue, I believe.
Deleted UserSeptember 24, 2021 at 19:28#5999850 likes
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Hw do you figure music is not manageable? It's not an object? Or it is an object, but not an ontologically manageable one. If the latter, what does that even mean?
Some objects are tangible, like a house or a mouse, some are less so, like a cloud. Some other objects are in the mind, like ideas, simple numbers or dreams. Then there are those that are products of social conventions, like scientific objects.
For music, there are several obvious candidates: the material original score, the music to which that score refers, or a correct performance. I take it that you are under the impression that one of these is the true composition. Unfortunately, none of these comes close enough to the world-as-it-is to sufficiently describe what most philosophers can comfortably accept.
For example, the score is generally not intended by the composer to be performed as it is written, The written language of music is too sparse to indicate exact performance. Nor is music intended to be performed exactly as the composer first envisioned, because variation and interpretation are implicit in the musical score and practice to suit the performer, the occasion, and the audience. Even the composer's own performance of their music is just one particular case and not the definitive exemplar.
True, some degree of vagueness in conception also occurs in natural and scientific objects, but in music variation is the heart of the subject and not just an insignificant nuisance to the philosopher as it is elsewhere.
Deleted UserSeptember 25, 2021 at 03:52#6001290 likes
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Reply to Tom StormReply to tim wood
One of the aims of classical music is for a person to feel all human emotions, and transcend them. Not to indulge in them.
A good cautionary tale to this theme is the historical reception of Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. "Rach. 3" as it is notoriously called in some cricles can induce in some people deep existential feelings and attitudes that they are not able to cope with.
That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances. The live performance does not have to be up to Carnegie Hall standards, but it should be reasonably competent. I've attended amateur / semi-professional performances that were very satisfactory concerts -- and yes, sometimes noticeably imperfect. That's fine. The thing is, hear music that is performed live, before a live audience.
Perhaps just to get a sense for it, yes.
But for most people, such a live performance of pieces they are not yet familiar with is probably going to be intolerably boring, and, depending on where their seats are, of relatively low sound quality (in comparison to a mastered recording).
Tom StormSeptember 27, 2021 at 10:02#6010810 likes
A good cautionary tale to this theme is the historical reception of Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. "Rach. 3" as it is notoriously called in some cricles can induce in some people deep existential feelings and attitudes that they are not able to cope with.
The thought of this amuses me as it's a fairly lightweight composition. I much prefer Rach 2 - still lightweight but it's far more efficacious I find for wallowing and the indulgence of self. For existential feelings that threaten to overwhelm, I would choose the largo movement from Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony. Or maybe the adagio from Mahler's unfinished 10th symphony. Simon Rattle conducting.
For existential feelings that threaten to overwhelm, I would choose the largo movement from Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony. Or maybe the adagio from Mahler's unfinished 10th symphony.
I don't find them particularly moving. But that's probably because I'm actually such an optimistic person!
Simon Rattle conducting.
Oh dear, Sir Rattle got so old since I last saw him!! How time flies!
Thought some might be interested in this:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/27/gorton-manchester-camerata-orchestra-helps-people-with-dementia-write-music
...the 82-year-old has been back in the monastery for something that at first sounds unlikely: a songwriting session for people living with dementia. It went so well that his daughter, Pauline Rawlins, now calls him “Gorton’s McCartney”. She is delighted the Camerata has come to Gorton: “Usually we don’t get things like this here.”
Asked to brainstorm the theme of autumn, her dad mused that “it comes and goes” – a line the Camerata’s musicians quickly improvised into a rather melancholic song, with percussion provided by the other participants and their carers, as well as music therapists.
Reply to Amity Classical music just must -- must -- have an element of snobism to it. Trying to make it seem like something that can be accessible to plebeians -- that just misses the point.
Deleted UserSeptember 27, 2021 at 15:52#6011710 likes
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Throughout his career, Nigel Kennedy has had run-ins with what he calls the “self-appointed wielders of power”. The latest came last week, when he pulled out of a gig at the Royal Albert Hall two days before showtime, accusing organisers Classic FM of preventing him performing a Jimi Hendrix tribute, which they deemed “unsuitable for our audience”.
“This is musical segregation,” he said as the news broke. “If it was applied to people, it would be illegal. If that type of mentality is rampant in the arts, then we still haven’t fixed the problem of prejudice. This is much more serious than my feathers being a bit ruffled. Prejudice in music is completely dreadful. They’re effectively saying that Hendrix is all right in the Marquee Club, but not in the Albert Hall.”...
...as a compromise, he agreed to perform Four Seasons, with Chineke!, an orchestra of young black and ethnically diverse musicians, if he could also do Hendrix’s Little Wing in the style of pastoral composer Vaughan Williams...
Kennedy argues that for all Hendrix’s “mind-blowing” guitar-playing, his genius extends to composition. “The songs he wrote and forms he took were very different … more free-flowing structure, loosening of the edges. A groundbreaker.”
Nigel Kennedy plays a barnstorming version of Jimi Hendrix’s “Purple Haze”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg_uEQdtn9U
Crossover violin virtuoso Nigel Kennedy has spent the past 30 years interpreting the works of legendary rock guitarist Jimi Hendrix. Here, accompanied by the Polish Chamber Orchestra, Nigel Kennedy puts his unique personal spin on Jimi Hendrix’s classic song “Purple Haze” during a concert at La Citadelle in Carcassonne, France, on July 17, 2005.
[ Spoiler Alert -
Spine chilling, thrilling ending...at 7:34...with audience joining in...clapping as music...as one.
But you need to watch/listen from start to really feel this. Like any climax :fire: ]
"Good writing, good books, literature, just must -- must -- have an element of snobism to it. Trying to make it seem like something that can be accessible to plebeians -- that just misses the point."
Of course.
Aspirational achievement lies within the capacity of everyone, and the appreciation of it I'd call taste and discernment, which anyone can learn and do.
No. If you would be born and raised in an old-fashioned European culture, one of the things that the educational system (even a public educational system) would make sure that you learn is that not everyone was born equal, and that there is a very clear limit to what a person of a particular background can do, in all areas of life, and also in terms of ability to properly appreciate art (where one's disadvatange becomes most apparent).
The elite has always had a "pearls before swine" attitude toward the commoners.
And high achievement and the appreciation of it does have some element. But not snobism, which is essentially ignorance's preening dance to compensate for itself.
The value of the classical is proved most simply by its endurance, that it touches and awakens something of value. And only a fool, an ignorant one, mocks it with the name of snobbery.
Why, indeed, the European elites agree with you on that. They surely don't consider themselves "snobs", but as possessing that "something" that cannot be learned, but which one must be born and bred with. And people born in rural areas and of low socio-economic backgrounds are by default exempt from having that "something" or ever attaining it.
Indeed, in more recent times, a part of the elite has been trying to popularize art and to "raise the spirit of the masses". But the condescension with which they do it! "You are a swine and you will always be a swine, you must never forget that. And know that we are so kind as to throw some of our pearls before you, swine." These people would pat you on the head, as if you were an imbecile, if only they wouldn't be too disgusted to touch you.
Aspirational achievement lies within the capacity of everyone, and the appreciation of it I'd call taste and discernment, which anyone can learn and do. And high achievement and the appreciation of it does have some element.
People can aspire to achieve X. But I am not convinced it lies within everyone's capacity.
What is the 'element' you refer to ?
This discussion has been thought-provoking; incorporating and swaying away from its title.
It would spoil the flow to start another thread, probably.
Philosophy of aesthetics can lead anywhere.
Related to the topic of 'aspirational achievement', I found this abstract of an article ( below).
If we have as a goal, a life well lived, we should, arguably, try to savour all kinds of everything.
Is there a fear attached to going beyond one's little word...of becoming something else, an other.
How often do we hear a ''That's not for me, I hate classical/pop/jazz...!"
Our own minds can limit us.
Unfortunately, and perhaps ironically, I don't have access to the full article...
I argue that we are subject to ‘aesthetic luck’ in four senses: constitutive, upbringing, sociogeographic, and circumstantial. I review evidence from our practices, philosophy, and science. I then consider what challenges aesthetic luck raises to the communicability of aesthetic judgments, the formation of one’s aesthetic character, and the goal of a life well lived, as well as possible answers to those challenges.
Deleted UserSeptember 28, 2021 at 15:47#6015700 likes
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Try it yourself: recover for a moment your inner three-year-old and allow yourself to be bumped into by the music and tumbled and tickled by it in delight. In an adult of course, we might call that "engagement." A good chance you will be engaged by it, even drawn into it. (It is preceded by a prelude/toccata, more adult, but lyrical and imo the more substantial, here:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmX5ZoX9Po
If you try these, do you not feel the draw of them?
Brother Wood, I already know you hold a weak supposal of my worth. What would you expect of me? That in weak plebeian fashion I defend myself, work hard to earn your recognition and your mercy?
As a deliberate experiment I planted a restive three-year-old in front of it, and she was transfixed. Almost a bet-you-can't-eat-just-one moment.
Yes well. I can't help but think of other 3yr olds fixed to the spot by poverty, hunger and illness.
Different worlds, needs and wants.
Still, I get your point...
Try it yourself: recover for a moment your inner three-year-old and allow yourself to be bumped into by the music and tumbled and tickled by it in delight. In an adult of course, we might call that "engagement."
Well, that didn't happen - my inner child in hiding.
However, a tired adult in the evening was mesmerised.
I hear in it, though, Irish folk rhythms, and some Stravinsky, here, at 7:55 and following for as long as patience allows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZmlYgYzG4
Yes, I can hear it. Thanks for drawing it to my attention. How on earth did that connection click with you.
Your musical memory magnetised?
I haven't listened to Britten's 'War Requiem', have you ?
I was looking for Owen's poem 'Futility' within but perhaps will need to listen to the whole piece.
Found it. *
Listened to part of this - but my ears are turning off... "Not for me"...
[ Edit: I meant the music not the letter as read, here:
Benjamin Britten's "War Requiem": A Letter From Wilfred Owen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTlGGqR5jUU
At Britten's request, there was no applause following the performance.[14] It was a triumph, and critics and audiences at this and subsequent performances in London and abroad hailed it as a contemporary masterpiece.[15]
Writing to his sister after the premiere, Britten said of his music, "I hope it'll make people think a bit." On the title page of the score he quoted Wilfred Owen:
Dies irae (27 minutes)
Dies irae (chorus)
"Bugles sang" (baritone solo) – Owen's "But I was Looking at the Permanent Stars"
Liber scriptus (soprano solo and semi-chorus)
"Out there, we walked quite friendly up to death" (tenor and baritone soli) – Owen's "The Next War"
Recordare (women's chorus)
Confutatis (men's chorus)
"Be slowly lifted up" (baritone solo) – Owen's "Sonnet On Seeing a Piece of our Heavy Artillery Brought into Action"
Reprise of Dies irae (chorus)
* Lacrimosa (soprano and chorus) interspersed with "Move him, move him" (tenor solo) – Owen's "Futility"
Offertorium (10 minutes)
Domine Jesu Christe (boys' choir)
Sed signifer sanctus (chorus)
Quam olim Abrahae (chorus)
Isaac and Abram (tenor and baritone soli) – Owen's "The Parable of the Old Man and the Young"
Hostias et preces tibi (boys' choir)
Reprise of Quam olim Abrahae (chorus)
Sanctus (10 minutes)
Sanctus and Benedictus (soprano solo and chorus)
"After the blast of lightning" (baritone solo) – Owen's "The End"
Agnus Dei (4 minutes)
Agnus Dei (chorus) interspersed with "One ever hangs" (chorus; tenor solo) – Owen's "At a Calvary near the Ancre"
Libera me (23 minutes)
Libera me (soprano solo and chorus)
Strange Meeting ("It seemed that out of battle I escaped") (tenor and baritone soli) – Owen's "Strange Meeting"
In paradisum (organ, boys' chorus, soprano and mixed chorus)
Conclusion – Requiem Aeternam and Requiescant in Pace (organ, boys' choir and mixed chorus)
The entire notion of music being in itself a matter of class is absurd, having nothing to do with music. Akin to saying that girls cannot "do" maths. What element? I did not have anything particular in mind, but curiosity, willingness, and an openness might do for starters.
Curious about this ?
SABATON - Great War (Official Lyric Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mt4B5Z8uLA
The band's main lyrical themes are based on war, historical battles, and acts of heroism[35]—the name is a reference to a sabaton, knight's foot armor.
Deleted UserOctober 01, 2021 at 00:14#6023380 likes
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Britten has composed music a little easier to listen to - although I find all of his difficult. Four Sea Interludes, here, perfectly musical but challenging:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J20ROYLZfX0
A perfect choice of a video -
I listened and watched in sheer delight.
Shared it here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/602411
:sparkle:
SophistiCatOctober 02, 2021 at 18:39#6029420 likes
A recent recording, and a recent discovery for me. (This gorgeous concerto seems to be rarely performed - probably because it's so damned hard, technically and emotionally.)
As for fidelity to composer's intentions, some classical musicians (Richter?) even bristle at being called interpreters, insisting that they merely perform what the composer wrote. Whether they really believe it (I can see how one might) or being coy, it's clearly not true that there isn't a good deal of interpretation involved even in the most scholarly and persnickety performance.
And I think a good piece of music has enough life of its own to survive a variety of good interpretations and even reinterpretations. I draw a line at Stokie's heavy-handed Romantic extravaganzas, but I can very well enjoy modern instrument Bach performances, alongside period ones, and even various adaptations and transformations (like one of my favorite jazz albums, Blues on BACH.)
P.S. Or speaking of Britten, here is one of my favorites: his brilliant take on one of Dowland's lachrymose songs - appropriately titled Lachrymae:
sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener.
Talking about being 'transported' or music that 'sends' you...
I posted a question here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/603578
Re: a Guardian article of someone's playlist. An example given of best music to have sex to.
It reminded me of comments here - and wondered if anyone had an example of the most erotic classical music ? The sexiest.
Orgasmic moments...as the music comes to a climax ?
No intimate details required :yikes:
Unless you feel that way inclined...
Deleted UserOctober 05, 2021 at 01:31#6039540 likes
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Michael ZwingliOctober 05, 2021 at 11:55#6040870 likes
@tim wood, much historical comment has been made about Glenn Gould's interpretations/recordings of Bach, especially of the Goldbergs. I have listened to them many times, without having been able to discern what all the fuss is about, and so have remained curious. (Though I appreciate "art music", I am not very well educated about the appreciation thereof.) Since you seem a fairly well educated appreciator of music, would you care to take a shot at enlightening me?
The Fairy Garden, from the Mother Goose suite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x-u7iw7W1Y
Bolero, of course, if a person isn't already tired of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_pSJOkmYBA
Vltava (The Moldau), here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6kqu2mk-Kw
But the Moldau one of six tone poems in Ma Vlast.
Again, a joy to watch the orchestra as they play.
1. Ravel's Le jardin féerique (4:10) - so beautiful and calming; slow and serene for most part.
2. Ravel's Bolero - BBC Proms (14:17) - again intriguing to watch/feel as the music stirs the senses. Intensity increasing. Yes, I'd heard it before and yes, even Barenboim seemed a a bit bored to start with - arms folded then a mere flickering gesture - but still intent, more alive as climax reached.
3. Vitava - The Moldau (14:10). Amazing - strong and joyful - conductor fully engaged. Then a quiet flow from about 5:43 - 8:37 when wow, everything took off - wonderful right to the end.
--------
About a billion years ago, I visited a friend who had music playing in the background.
Afterwards, I discovered it had been one of Bruckner's Symphonies. No idea which one.
So, I had a look today and found this:
In a concert review, Bernard Holland described parts of the first movements of Bruckner's sixth and seventh symphonies as follows: "There is the same slow, broad introduction, the drawn-out climaxes that grow, pull back and then grow some more – a sort of musical coitus interruptus."[45]
Anton Bruckner, Symphony No 7 in E major, 1 - Allegro moderato (22:53)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ungh7fl93lI
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Michael ZwingliOctober 05, 2021 at 18:13#6041920 likes
So you hear (the performance of) the Bach. And hearing the Bach think little more about it - but it's a version of perfection the appreciation of which is gained through an open and attentive listening and also through the experience of imperfect or lesser versions.
I have always found it much more difficult to distinguish preformances of Baroque music, when played by two competent musicians, in contrast to, say, two performances of Romantic or even Classical music, in which there seems to have been much more latitude for individual expression.
And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves.
Quite profound. I will be heading down East tomorrow morning with a buddy to canoe the Damariscotta and Penobscot Bay. I will ponder that as I paddle...
My own story of appreciation is about the singer Tony Bennett, in his 90s if still alive. I paid him zero attention - who cares about another lounge singer - until he published a series of collaborations with other popular singers.
Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ?
And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves.
What a lovely thought. Uplifting even. Appreciate :sparkle:
Deleted UserOctober 05, 2021 at 18:43#6041980 likes
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This apparent dichotomy between Bruckner the man and Bruckner the composer hampers efforts to describe his life in a way that gives a straightforward context for his music. Hans von Bülow described him as "half genius, half simpleton".[2] Bruckner was critical of his own work and often reworked his compositions. There are several versions of many of his works.
I wonder if as with me "The Fairy Garden" pulls you back to rehear and re-listen. I hear in it a remembrance, a sad, yearning, but celebratory appreciation of magic lost. As if the garden were a living temple to lost sensibilities, to be visited but never, not ever, again occupied.
I have listened to it again. There are special qualities which I could never have described in the way you have. So poetic. Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'.
And why then to say '...And classical music seems to be about that...'
Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'.
— Amity
Well, it is called "the fairy garden." It summons to me places and times of magic that belong to a child, but that an adult can only remember. But that's just me; how would you describe it?
I listened to it again, this time without watching the orchestra. I wasn't summoned to magical places that only belong to children. Adults can find magic in the music. But my mind was still in thinking mode - trying to answer the question of how I would describe it. Another time I will simply listen...
Words jotted down quickly as the music progressed:
wistful, other-worldly, lifting up, spirit lightly, sparkly, 'Peter Pan!', magical, opening-up, wide expanse, possibilities, becoming stronger, building to climax, 'There!' - destination reached.
--------
So, I wanted to find out more about Ravel's 'Mother Goose Suite'.
I hadn't appreciated that 'The Fairy Garden' was indeed the Finale.
From:
http://www.favorite-classical-composers.com/mother-goose-suite.html#:~:text=Ravel%27s%20Mother%20Goose%20Suite.%20Delicate%20Childhood%20Stories.%20The,orchestral%20ballet%20version%20made%20it%20well-known%20and%20popular.
The embedded video:
Ma Mere l'Oye: V.Tableau: Laideronnette, Impératrice des Pagodes-VI.Apotheose: Le Jardin Féerique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vq6hAQJaRA&t=8s
How does appreciation of Bruckner or a 'Manson' * enable anyone to appreciate themselves ?
— Amity
I'd answer, and not being evasive but I'm thinking you already know.
Well, I might already know - somewhere in the depths - but it isn't obvious to me.
Following the breadcrumb trail:
Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ?
— Amity
It comes from a listening combined with an understanding of what's being heard. With Tony Bennett I simply had not understood, nor known enough to have cared.
And hearing the Bach think little more about it - but it's a version of perfection the appreciation of which is gained through an open and attentive listening and also through the experience of imperfect or lesser versions. And there is a lot of this perfection in the world, though often realized in the mundane and the standardized and thus overlooked. And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves.
I've bolded what I consider the key parts related to Appreciation.
Timing. Understanding. Knowledge. Care. Attention. Degrees of perfection. Comparisons. Judgements. Relating. Enabling.
Comparing different versions of the same piece is perhaps one way of finding the 'more perfect' but most times we take shortcuts and listen to a few recommendations. Time is short.
And it is in giving time to listen to others that we can gain some kind of understanding of preferences.
In music generally.
I am intrigued by what @Pinprick said about his liking for the music of Manson. Also that his current profile shows an alchemical symbol. So, a different kind of magic perhaps from the fairy garden ?
I hope there is a response to my questions, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/604714
All the better to understand... the gratitude and appreciation expressed.
Appreciating the other not just for who they are but how they can help us see or 'appreciate' ourselves and where we come from or stand. And where our next step might lead. Even if it is down the garden path, we can always stop and turn...
We might be in a better position to understand ourselves when we can really listen to experiences in music and life. The rhythm and pace. From beginning to end.
Our own growth and development.
So often we stand in judgement of others without truly understanding them.
None of us are perfect but that doesn't stop us being and doing the best we can.
Appreciating the chance to learn more. To become, perhaps, a better version.
Be kind to yourself. The magic of music and fairy tales are not just for children.
We all need imagination and inspiration. And other people...
Comments (58)
Thanks, for this; an exceptionally thoughtful listening piece.
So far, I've only clicked on Lark Ascending. So beautiful, clear and uplifting.
***
Your 'Sunday church-going' reminded me of 'Eleanor Rigby' - I talked of here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/597807
Eleanor Rigby (Strings Only / Anthology 2 Version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZA6jtxtTfQ&t=0s
[The first time my ears were stretched open to each instrument playing; linking the score to the lyrics for a deeper meaning. From simply hearing it as a pop song in 1966 to a careful listening decades later. I am grateful to the OU for that. How many get the chance to learn how to listen to music ? At the same time as attempting to interpret the meaning of lyrics...]
***
Since way back then, I have come to a greater appreciation of the mind/body connection.
A holistic view, if you like.
Quoting tim wood
What do you mean by 'presencing' - being in the moment ?
Of what, then, would mean everything ? A deepening or enlarging of our senses/awareness...
(video, transcripts and audio files of lectures):
https://oyc.yale.edu/music/musi-112/lecture-1
Quoting Open Yale Course: Music 112
La musica è come il gelato :cool:
I think that at the time of presencing the composition in their minds most composers were keenly aware of the audience and as professionals needed to balance their own much further advanced musical intellect and the pedestrian listening public.
When emperor Joseph II allegedly yawned and later told Mozart that there were too many notes, to which Mozart asked 'which ones should I remove your majesty?', the emperor was not wrong and neither was Mozart. Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation. I'm the same way. Why did Ana Vidovic flick off that three-note figure repeatedly in an otherwise other-wordly Scarlatti sonata?
That's a significant point. Interpretations of a musical text can transform it in either direction. I love Richard Strauss' Four Last Songs, but it's the Jessie Norman 1983 Kurt Masur version that really transports me.
The significance of performance/interpretation reminds me of the joke about an insufferable ham actor doing Shakespeare in a theater in a city somewhere in the mid 20th century. His performance was so dire that the audience started booing him and throwing things. The actor turned to them and yelled, "Hey, don't blame me, I didn't write this shit!"
Your highlighting the importance of presence in music sparked thoughts in a number of directions. The prime focus should be on the essential personal subjective experience of one listener at an ideally live performance with a large audience also in attendance. This one-time experience of the weather, traffic, parking, cost, crowd, formality, location of seats, acoustics, the dispositions of human performers, and coughing strangers during quiet passages.
This is different from listening repeatedly to recorded performances with a fine headset. Recordings are comparative by their nature with so much more of the same or similar recordings readily available on youtube. Spontaneity is replaced with sober analysis off the computer. The Vidovic recital I meant is the recent one, starting at 41:39. My wife thinks it's the best she's ever heard. So do I, but all I could think of at the time were those muted notes. Sorry me.
But presence has other notable aspects. The performers make the music and not the composer. The composer is the beneficiary or victim of the instrumentalists. Performers work for years to hone fine details of their art to create the possibilities that only can come to fruition on stage in front of an audience or microphones. When that happens they also experience the presence of their efforts. I found a couple of oldies to compare: Heifetz, Ysaye, Hassid
Quoting magritte
Likewise. Although I only responded to one aspect, I had been thinking of the complete interaction.
The whole process from beginning to end.
In addition, even as I learned how to listen more carefully to each instrument, I thought that too much objective analysis/criticism could spoil the subjective experience. As you say:
Quoting magritte
I wonder if rather than have ears wide open and alert, that it might be an idea to relax and close a little.
Be more laid back as if dreaming or in a relaxed, satisfied afterglow...
Just a thought.
***
[quote="magritte;598628" ]But presence has other notable aspects. The performers make the music and not the composer. The composer is the beneficiary or victim of the instrumentalists[/quote]
''Beneficiary or victim'. This sounds similar to foreign language translation and interpretation of a poem.
See @Olivier5 :
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/598381
"Yes I did translate it. Translating poems is always a treason though. As the Italians say: traduttore traditore."
It takes expertise to know the words, the context, feel the sense and share that experience.
@Olivier5 did that :100:
[ We see the same in philosophy interpretations/arguments. Not mentioning troublesome Plato ! ]
***
The beauty of youtube is that we can listen to so many versions to compare and share.
And learn.
For example @tim wood's link:
Hilary Hahn: Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 1 in a nutshell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=015QVOO-5Ek
And this is what I enjoy about watching someone perform. I used to think that it was overly dramatic, and in some cases that's true. However, Hilary explained how Prokofiev linked in choreography not just in ballet but in the techniques. At times, the whole body has to move 'expanding and contracting..
Hilary calls the performance a 'wild ride'. From a very still start...
She inspires confidence.
So any 'performance anxiety' - I sometimes feel as a listener is kept to a minimum.
I can relax and simply appreciate. For now, at home.
'Wrested from the void' ?
Brought out somehow...from a 'primordial reality' ?
I agree that the origin of any inspiration can be seen as mysterious - some say a gift from God.
However, I tend to think that it stems from the mind.
The origin of a human creation - or product of the creative process - starts with imagination.
A coalescing of ideas, senses - a way of seeing the potential to expand existing thoughts/dreams.
At a more basic level by playing around - as children do.
Play, performance, persona - the roles and masks - can be, as you suggest, transparent or opaque.
Why would you say that 'transparency' allows a view of the music itself ?
Are you relating this to the 'ego' of some performers which can overwhelm a piece ?
I agree that the aesthetics can be spoiled if the performer is distracting.
However, a degree of opaqueness is necessary if we are to suspend reality for a while, no ?
Escapism. Not just for the performer but for ourselves...it can enhance the experience.
You might be interested in this article which explores:
Quoting Oxford Academic article: aesthetics and art criticism
Quoting Oxford academic article: Transparent and opaque performance personas
The wild ride also goes for the audience, especially if the performer is famous and the concert is highly anticipated. I often think that composing and performing are mostly technical with touches of creativity here and there but sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener.
That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances. The live performance does not have to be up to Carnegie Hall standards, but it should be reasonably competent. I've attended amateur / semi-professional performances that were very satisfactory concerts -- and yes, sometimes noticeably imperfect. That's fine. The thing is, hear music that is performed live, before a live audience.
Personally, I can't afford to regularly attend professional orchestra performances at Orchestra Hall, though when I do attend, it's worth the cost.
Other sources are small community orchestras and church-sponsored performances of secular music. Costs have risen for everyone over the last 20 or 30 years and there are fewer outright free concerts than there used to be. Still, the cost of a community orchestra concert can be quite affordable.
Music is like religion then - what's meant, what's understood, what's practiced (performed) are all different in their own way.
Am I wrong or does religion have a lot to do with music?
I've just listened to and watched an incredible performance, thanks to @tim wood for link in OP. *
This concert must have been SO 'highly anticipated' - given the timing and circumstances.
A lessening of covid restrictions which had affected/closed many art venues/gatherings in 2020.
Now, in 2021 - precautions still being taken with mask wearing and some social distancing.
The performer not only famous but with an attractive, sincere and beguiling personality.
I didn't know of her until this thread but have read more:
Quoting Wiki: Hilary Hahn
--------
*
Hilary Hahn /Paavo Järvi /GEPO - Sibelius: Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O65YBjweUPo&t=741s
Jean Sibelius (1865-1957) - Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (1905)
1. Allegro moderato (00:29)
2. Adagio di molto (18:10)
3. Allegro, ma non tanto (26:24)
Hilary Hahn, violin
Paavo Järvi, conductor
George Enescu Philharmonic Orchestra
Quoting Bitter Crank
Yes. But as you say, there are now more obstacles than ever. It's not easy.
Quoting Bitter Crank
For me, right now, it would take something extraordinary to make it worthwhile.
I can hardly remember attending free/low cost smaller concerts when visiting London...such as:
https://www.stmartin-in-the-fields.org/whatson-event/concerts-by-candlelight/
Concerts cancelled in 2020 now rescheduled
Quoting Concerts by Candlelight at St. Martin's
--------
Having watched Hilary's performance and the effect not only on the audience but the members of the orchestra - there is a rapture which can't be captured simply by listening to a recording.
Even if the recording is of a live performance...
At the end of the 'Adagio di molto' - there is an amazing moment of silence before the audience seems to wake up and wonder should they applaud - would it break the spell...
Hilary - a very special person.
Quoting Wiki: Hilary Hahn
Thanks @tim wood for another extraordinary introduction... :sparkle:
Quoting tim wood
OK. To backtrack:
Quoting Amity
My 'it' referred to 'imagination' as the origin, not to the 'music' as you suggest 'arguably wrested from a void or primordial reality by the composers'.
So, What did you mean by that and How does any 'wresting' happen ?
Quoting tim wood
Well, there will always be different ways of thinking about an issue in the philosophy of music.
However, I am no expert and feelings of wonder evaporate when looking at the SEP article:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/music/
You ask interesting questions:
Quoting tim wood
Composer's compositions.
How is anything composed ?
Not pure invention - but inventiveness is part of it. Innovations. New ideas.
Otherwise music/poetry/art and philosophy would stay still. Dead.
Interesting to compare definitions of 'composition' and 'improvisation'.
Quoting Natural Patterns - Composition and Improvisation
My knowledge and experience of composition is scant. Really not up to the task...
Hopefully, others will join in this discussion.
There is so much more to learn:
Quoting Open Learn: Composition and improvisation in cross-cultural perspective
https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=1840&printable=1
Hilary Hahn: Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades" in a nutshell (4:49)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICGFmN85J50
Here, Hilary talks about the interpretation as a 'blueprint' which is as close to the composer's 'emotional intention' as possible. To capture the initial feeling. She contrasts a potential dramatic, powerful and operatic way but recognises that this is not really how the composer 'moved through the world' and so
she chooses to express the openness and embracing of love...
Connecting with the composer and the audience.
It is moving to hear of the circumstances which led to this.
The composer had passed away before completion and premier.
According to Hilary, he had a warmth and spirituality - also haunted by its dark side in life and death; darkness and light.
Her short discussion is informative but also a temptation...
'Einojuhani Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades," is one of three pieces on her album “Paris,” recorded with Mikko Franck and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France. “Paris” is out now.
Happy listening :sparkle:
Transports you -- from whence to where?
From suburban shitsville to the Elysian fields... It's a turn of phrase, B...
The SEP article lays out the difficulties of the subject, and this does not even acknowledge the role of the listener or the circumstances of the performance. Is this at a circus, parade, a concert in the park, or a funeral? To go beyond some vague definition for art and music, we really should attempt to limit philosophical discussion to ontologically manageable objects. While this is not the advertised topic of this thread, it is the underlying issue, I believe.
Some objects are tangible, like a house or a mouse, some are less so, like a cloud. Some other objects are in the mind, like ideas, simple numbers or dreams. Then there are those that are products of social conventions, like scientific objects.
For music, there are several obvious candidates: the material original score, the music to which that score refers, or a correct performance. I take it that you are under the impression that one of these is the true composition. Unfortunately, none of these comes close enough to the world-as-it-is to sufficiently describe what most philosophers can comfortably accept.
For example, the score is generally not intended by the composer to be performed as it is written, The written language of music is too sparse to indicate exact performance. Nor is music intended to be performed exactly as the composer first envisioned, because variation and interpretation are implicit in the musical score and practice to suit the performer, the occasion, and the audience. Even the composer's own performance of their music is just one particular case and not the definitive exemplar.
True, some degree of vagueness in conception also occurs in natural and scientific objects, but in music variation is the heart of the subject and not just an insignificant nuisance to the philosopher as it is elsewhere.
One of the aims of classical music is for a person to feel all human emotions, and transcend them. Not to indulge in them.
A good cautionary tale to this theme is the historical reception of Rachmaninoff's Third piano concerto. "Rach. 3" as it is notoriously called in some cricles can induce in some people deep existential feelings and attitudes that they are not able to cope with.
Perhaps just to get a sense for it, yes.
But for most people, such a live performance of pieces they are not yet familiar with is probably going to be intolerably boring, and, depending on where their seats are, of relatively low sound quality (in comparison to a mastered recording).
The thought of this amuses me as it's a fairly lightweight composition. I much prefer Rach 2 - still lightweight but it's far more efficacious I find for wallowing and the indulgence of self. For existential feelings that threaten to overwhelm, I would choose the largo movement from Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony. Or maybe the adagio from Mahler's unfinished 10th symphony. Simon Rattle conducting.
Be that as it may, some people did go mad about it.
Some people also think Das Wohltemperierte Clavier is "deep".
Which brings us back to the theme of listening to classical music for hedonic purposes.
I don't find them particularly moving. But that's probably because I'm actually such an optimistic person!
Oh dear, Sir Rattle got so old since I last saw him!! How time flies!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/27/gorton-manchester-camerata-orchestra-helps-people-with-dementia-write-music
You might like this about 'musical segregation':
Quoting Guardian - Nigel Kennedy - Classic FM fight
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/sep/28/nigel-kennedy-classic-fm-fight-hendrix-beethoven-vivaldi-des-oconnor-duke-ellington
***
Nigel Kennedy plays a barnstorming version of Jimi Hendrix’s “Purple Haze”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg_uEQdtn9U
[ Spoiler Alert -
Spine chilling, thrilling ending...at 7:34...with audience joining in...clapping as music...as one.
But you need to watch/listen from start to really feel this. Like any climax :fire: ]
Of course.
No. If you would be born and raised in an old-fashioned European culture, one of the things that the educational system (even a public educational system) would make sure that you learn is that not everyone was born equal, and that there is a very clear limit to what a person of a particular background can do, in all areas of life, and also in terms of ability to properly appreciate art (where one's disadvatange becomes most apparent).
The elite has always had a "pearls before swine" attitude toward the commoners.
Why, indeed, the European elites agree with you on that. They surely don't consider themselves "snobs", but as possessing that "something" that cannot be learned, but which one must be born and bred with. And people born in rural areas and of low socio-economic backgrounds are by default exempt from having that "something" or ever attaining it.
Indeed, in more recent times, a part of the elite has been trying to popularize art and to "raise the spirit of the masses". But the condescension with which they do it! "You are a swine and you will always be a swine, you must never forget that. And know that we are so kind as to throw some of our pearls before you, swine." These people would pat you on the head, as if you were an imbecile, if only they wouldn't be too disgusted to touch you.
You should read The Elegance of the Hedgehog which also touches on this elitism.
People can aspire to achieve X. But I am not convinced it lies within everyone's capacity.
What is the 'element' you refer to ?
This discussion has been thought-provoking; incorporating and swaying away from its title.
It would spoil the flow to start another thread, probably.
Philosophy of aesthetics can lead anywhere.
Related to the topic of 'aspirational achievement', I found this abstract of an article ( below).
If we have as a goal, a life well lived, we should, arguably, try to savour all kinds of everything.
Is there a fear attached to going beyond one's little word...of becoming something else, an other.
How often do we hear a ''That's not for me, I hate classical/pop/jazz...!"
Our own minds can limit us.
Unfortunately, and perhaps ironically, I don't have access to the full article...
Quoting Oxford Academic: The Monist - Aesthetic Luck
Brother Wood, I already know you hold a weak supposal of my worth. What would you expect of me? That in weak plebeian fashion I defend myself, work hard to earn your recognition and your mercy?
Yes. Thanks again for introduction.
Quoting tim wood
Yes well. I can't help but think of other 3yr olds fixed to the spot by poverty, hunger and illness.
Different worlds, needs and wants.
Still, I get your point...
Quoting tim wood
Well, that didn't happen - my inner child in hiding.
However, a tired adult in the evening was mesmerised.
Quoting tim wood
Yes, I can hear it. Thanks for drawing it to my attention. How on earth did that connection click with you.
Your musical memory magnetised?
I was looking for Owen's poem 'Futility' within but perhaps will need to listen to the whole piece.
Found it. *
Listened to part of this - but my ears are turning off... "Not for me"...
[ Edit: I meant the music not the letter as read, here:
Benjamin Britten's "War Requiem": A Letter From Wilfred Owen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTlGGqR5jUU
***
Quoting Wiki: War Requiem
Curious about this ?
SABATON - Great War (Official Lyric Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mt4B5Z8uLA
The band's main lyrical themes are based on war, historical battles, and acts of heroism[35]—the name is a reference to a sabaton, knight's foot armor.
Thanks for all of this. Especially:
Quoting tim wood
A perfect choice of a video -
I listened and watched in sheer delight.
Shared it here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/602411
:sparkle:
Rosalyn Tureck plays Bach Capriccio BMV 992 "On the Departure of His Beloved Brother"
Rosalyn Tureck plays Bach English Suite No 3 in G minor BWV 808
I like her delicate, flowing staccato.
Ginastera: Violinkonzert ? hr-Sinfonieorchester ? Hilary Hahn ? Andrés Orozco-Estrada
A recent recording, and a recent discovery for me. (This gorgeous concerto seems to be rarely performed - probably because it's so damned hard, technically and emotionally.)
As for fidelity to composer's intentions, some classical musicians (Richter?) even bristle at being called interpreters, insisting that they merely perform what the composer wrote. Whether they really believe it (I can see how one might) or being coy, it's clearly not true that there isn't a good deal of interpretation involved even in the most scholarly and persnickety performance.
And I think a good piece of music has enough life of its own to survive a variety of good interpretations and even reinterpretations. I draw a line at Stokie's heavy-handed Romantic extravaganzas, but I can very well enjoy modern instrument Bach performances, alongside period ones, and even various adaptations and transformations (like one of my favorite jazz albums, Blues on BACH.)
P.S. Or speaking of Britten, here is one of my favorites: his brilliant take on one of Dowland's lachrymose songs - appropriately titled Lachrymae:
Respectful and personal.
Talking about being 'transported' or music that 'sends' you...
I posted a question here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/603578
Re: a Guardian article of someone's playlist. An example given of best music to have sex to.
It reminded me of comments here - and wondered if anyone had an example of the most erotic classical music ? The sexiest.
Orgasmic moments...as the music comes to a climax ?
No intimate details required :yikes:
Unless you feel that way inclined...
Again, a joy to watch the orchestra as they play.
1. Ravel's Le jardin féerique (4:10) - so beautiful and calming; slow and serene for most part.
2. Ravel's Bolero - BBC Proms (14:17) - again intriguing to watch/feel as the music stirs the senses. Intensity increasing. Yes, I'd heard it before and yes, even Barenboim seemed a a bit bored to start with - arms folded then a mere flickering gesture - but still intent, more alive as climax reached.
3. Vitava - The Moldau (14:10). Amazing - strong and joyful - conductor fully engaged. Then a quiet flow from about 5:43 - 8:37 when wow, everything took off - wonderful right to the end.
--------
About a billion years ago, I visited a friend who had music playing in the background.
Afterwards, I discovered it had been one of Bruckner's Symphonies. No idea which one.
So, I had a look today and found this:
Quoting Wiki: Bruckner
Anton Bruckner, Symphony No 7 in E major, 1 - Allegro moderato (22:53)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ungh7fl93lI
I have always found it much more difficult to distinguish preformances of Baroque music, when played by two competent musicians, in contrast to, say, two performances of Romantic or even Classical music, in which there seems to have been much more latitude for individual expression.
Quoting tim wood
Quite profound. I will be heading down East tomorrow morning with a buddy to canoe the Damariscotta and Penobscot Bay. I will ponder that as I paddle...
I missed this one.
It is just what my mood needs. Right. Now. Perfect.
Thank you :sparkle:
Quoting tim wood
Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ?
Quoting tim wood
What a lovely thought. Uplifting even. Appreciate :sparkle:
You've listened to them all ?
From the little I've read, Bruckner was seldom satisfied with his work.
Quoting Wiki: Bruckner
--------
Quoting tim wood
I have listened to it again. There are special qualities which I could never have described in the way you have. So poetic. Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'.
And why then to say '...And classical music seems to be about that...'
--------
Quoting tim wood
I have never thought of 'music' in these terms before.
How does appreciation of Bruckner or a 'Manson' * enable anyone to appreciate themselves ?
* https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/604714
I listened to it again, this time without watching the orchestra. I wasn't summoned to magical places that only belong to children. Adults can find magic in the music. But my mind was still in thinking mode - trying to answer the question of how I would describe it. Another time I will simply listen...
Words jotted down quickly as the music progressed:
wistful, other-worldly, lifting up, spirit lightly, sparkly, 'Peter Pan!', magical, opening-up, wide expanse, possibilities, becoming stronger, building to climax, 'There!' - destination reached.
--------
So, I wanted to find out more about Ravel's 'Mother Goose Suite'.
I hadn't appreciated that 'The Fairy Garden' was indeed the Finale.
From:
http://www.favorite-classical-composers.com/mother-goose-suite.html#:~:text=Ravel%27s%20Mother%20Goose%20Suite.%20Delicate%20Childhood%20Stories.%20The,orchestral%20ballet%20version%20made%20it%20well-known%20and%20popular.
The embedded video:
Ma Mere l'Oye: V.Tableau: Laideronnette, Impératrice des Pagodes-VI.Apotheose: Le Jardin Féerique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vq6hAQJaRA&t=8s
--------
Quoting tim wood
Well, I might already know - somewhere in the depths - but it isn't obvious to me.
Following the breadcrumb trail:
Quoting tim wood
Quoting tim wood
I've bolded what I consider the key parts related to Appreciation.
Timing. Understanding. Knowledge. Care. Attention. Degrees of perfection. Comparisons. Judgements. Relating. Enabling.
Comparing different versions of the same piece is perhaps one way of finding the 'more perfect' but most times we take shortcuts and listen to a few recommendations. Time is short.
And it is in giving time to listen to others that we can gain some kind of understanding of preferences.
In music generally.
I am intrigued by what @Pinprick said about his liking for the music of Manson. Also that his current profile shows an alchemical symbol. So, a different kind of magic perhaps from the fairy garden ?
I hope there is a response to my questions, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/604714
All the better to understand... the gratitude and appreciation expressed.
Appreciating the other not just for who they are but how they can help us see or 'appreciate' ourselves and where we come from or stand. And where our next step might lead. Even if it is down the garden path, we can always stop and turn...
We might be in a better position to understand ourselves when we can really listen to experiences in music and life. The rhythm and pace. From beginning to end.
Our own growth and development.
So often we stand in judgement of others without truly understanding them.
None of us are perfect but that doesn't stop us being and doing the best we can.
Appreciating the chance to learn more. To become, perhaps, a better version.
Be kind to yourself. The magic of music and fairy tales are not just for children.
We all need imagination and inspiration. And other people...
Thanks for listening :sparkle: