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Is velocity a true physical quantity?

Philofile September 15, 2021 at 20:18 5375 views 21 comments
In physics, velocity is defined as the limit of a difference ratio. It's the differene between the position at two times divided by the time elapsed between the two positions. So there are always two positions needed, no matter how small the time duration gets. Now particles have no memory. They have a position and, so goes the argument, an instanteneous velocity. But a velocity is defined by two different positions. Positions are real. But velocities?

Comments (21)

Banno September 15, 2021 at 21:01 #595340
Here we go again.

Quoting Philofile
It's the differene between the position at two times divided by the time elapsed between the two positions.


That's average velocity. The instantaneous velocity is the slope of the tangent of the position-time graph at that particular instant of time, dx/dt.

But that will not convince some folk because they didn't do enough maths at school.
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:16 #595354
Reply to Banno
A differential is a difference too.
Hermeticus September 15, 2021 at 21:28 #595364
Position = Measurement of space
Time = Measurement of time
Velocity = Measurement of motion

If there is no motion, even over an infinite period of time there is no change in position.



Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:31 #595369
Reply to Hermeticus

Velocity is measurement of two positions. The positions of particles change. But that goes hand in hand with two different times. But which of the two is fundamental?
Banno September 15, 2021 at 21:31 #595370
Reply to Philofile I've given you the answer. What you do with it is up to you.
Hermeticus September 15, 2021 at 21:33 #595372
Quoting Philofile
Velocity is measurement of two positions. The positions of particles change. But that goes hand in hand with two different times. But which of the two is fundamental?


How does the position of a particle change?
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:41 #595378
Quoting Banno
I've given you the answer. What you do with it is up to you.


I could have given that answer myself. Every velocity is an average one.
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:42 #595379
Quoting Hermeticus
How does the position of a particle change?


It depends on the force acting on it.
magritte September 15, 2021 at 21:55 #595397
Reply to Philofile
So what's difference between speed and velocity? If I run around in a circle at 10m/sec what's my speed, average velocity, and my instantaneous velocity at t[sub]0[/sub]?
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:57 #595399
Quoting magritte
So what's difference between speed and velocity


Speed is magnitude. Velocity is magnitude and direction. Scalar and vector.
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 22:01 #595407
I'm moving in a car (I have a velocity). I move (in my car) from New York to San Francisco. If I weren't moving (had a velocity) at all points between New York and San Francisco, how the hell did I reach San Francisco? :chin:
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 22:07 #595412
Reply to TheMadFool

By moving. But at no point you had a velocity. That's defined by us. Compare it with physics without time...
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 22:14 #595417
Quoting Philofile
By moving. But at no point you had a velocity. That's defined by us. Compare it with physics without time...


But time is consumed in the journey. My watch and my calender says so.

Also, explain this: a person X and Y are racing each other in a 100 m dash. X wins the race i.e. X and Y can be ordered in a sequence, X first, Y second. This ordering is not spatial, both ran 100 m. In what sense can you say that X is first and Y second? Time! Velocity then is a true physical quantity.
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 22:28 #595431
Quoting TheMadFool
But time is consumed in the journey. My watch and my calender says so.


That's exactly what my question is about. Can you remember that jewish guy in English parlament smashing his wristwatch?
Metaphysician Undercover September 16, 2021 at 01:19 #595536
Quoting Philofile
Every velocity is an average one.


Your efforts are wasted on Banno. Some people think they know everything and refuse to learn anything.

To address your op, there is no such thing as a "physical quantity". "Physical" means of the body, where a body is a thing, or object. A quantity may be of one, or a multitude of objects. That's why quantity is an abstraction, or universal, and not something physical
Banno September 16, 2021 at 01:35 #595540
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Some people think they know everything and refuse to learn anything.


Indeed, on this we agree, but it seems we disagree as to who...

Your inevitable presence here doubtless assures that this thread will have a long and unproductive continuation.
Philofile September 16, 2021 at 02:22 #595575
Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
To address your op, there is no such thing as a "physical quantity".


Can't a body, or matter, have quantities? Mass, charge, position, maybe velocity?
TheMadFool September 16, 2021 at 06:19 #595736
Quoting Philofile
That's exactly what my question is about. Can you remember that jewish guy in English parlament smashing his wristwatch?


Perhaps he was onto something.

[quote=Dion Boucicault]Men talk of killing time, while time quietly kills them.[/quote]

:grin:

Jokes aside, timelessness is not something I have the wherewithal to tackle at the moment. I tried turning it over in my mind and I must admit I can't even parse the claim that time is an illusion. What does that even mean?
Nosferatu September 16, 2021 at 07:22 #595761
Quoting TheMadFool
time is an illusion. What does that even mean?


That we invented it. It's no illusion. It's very real. But Einsteins spacetime grant Nature to much.
Metaphysician Undercover September 16, 2021 at 10:54 #595818
Quoting Philofile
Can't a body, or matter, have quantities? Mass, charge, position, maybe velocity?


These are all things we assign to the body, in predication. We might say that the body has something real, a property which corresponds to the concept assigned, but that all depends on the accuracy of the concept, in its capacity for modeling reality. That's why Banno's "instantaneous velocity" is a bad conception, when judged for truthfulness. Though it is a very useful concept, it's obvious that there is nothing real which corresponds with it.

"Mass" is similar, in the sense of being very useful, but not very truthful. It's like a magical power which we assign to a coherent group of particles which we observe to exist as a unified body. In theory, the massive object consists of a group of parts. But the theoretical parts, in summation, of each one's "mass" cannot account for the quantity of power that the unified whole is observed to have as "mass". So to be truthful we should represent this power which is attributed to "mass", as something which is produced by magic, or magically comes into existence, when parts are unified as a whole.
TheMadFool October 19, 2021 at 16:25 #609021
If time is unreal what are colors and sounds, these phenomena being defined in terms of time (Hertz)? :chin:

In a Timeless Universe, how are colors and tones defined?