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What are you chasing after with philosophy?

leo September 15, 2021 at 10:59 6775 views 52 comments
Are you chasing after Truth? After a more complete understanding of Reality? After happiness?

You see that you have the ability to reason, and that this ability allows you to explore, to discover, to notice connections between what seemed to be previously disconnected.

In turn this increased awareness allows you to have an increased understanding of the consequences of your choices, which allows you to have better control over your life.

This increased understanding, this better control, some would call getting closer to Truth.

Would you agree then with the assessment that the search for Truth, for a more complete understanding of Reality, for happiness, are all connected? And that deep down this is why you do philosophy?

Comments (52)

Newkomer September 15, 2021 at 11:01 #595092
Reply to leo

I have found my own philosophy. It sets you FREE!
Hermeticus September 15, 2021 at 11:14 #595108
Reply to leo
It's a bit of a paradox for me. I don't think philosophy has much to offer in terms of truth, understanding reality or happiness. Of course, that's a conclusion that I made through philosophy as well - so it's not exactly useless either.

I reckon what philosophy can teach fairly well is imagination and communication. It's a practice of different perspectives. In the end it's just a pastime for me. It's engaging to think, to formulate and solve problems. I might as well be playing games or watching TV. I opt to read books and philosophize instead because in a few cases, the insights of philosophy may be a bit more practical for when I'm not playing games.

I'll agree to the last statement. Truth, reality, happiness are connected. They're one and the same desire.

leo September 15, 2021 at 11:22 #595117
Reply to Newkomer

As they say the Truth will set you free :)

So you’re chasing after more freedom? Would you agree that it’s connected with the awareness of Truth, of Reality, and happiness?
leo September 15, 2021 at 11:37 #595131
Reply to Hermeticus

Thanks for your point of view. Indeed as you say practicing philosophy can make one better at imagination and communication. Which then can make it easier to solve problems and to connect with others.

But then, if practicing philosophy helps to solve problems and to communicate with others, isn’t it a helpful tool towards approaching what we mentioned? (Truth, awareness of reality, happiness, freedom)
Newkomer September 15, 2021 at 11:44 #595133
Quoting leo
So you’re chasing after more freedom? Would you agree that it’s connected with the awareness of Truth, of Reality, and happiness?


I truly feel I have found a truth! As if the universe and the gods have revealed themsekves. Im truly feeling free. I dont care what others think of me anymore. I love and can speak with anyone! No shame. It feels great. No, I dont have "a psychosis" or whatever psycho label. Though I had my share of depression. Brrrrr... ?
Hermeticus September 15, 2021 at 12:00 #595141
Quoting leo
But then, if practicing philosophy helps to solve problems and to communicate with others, isn’t it a helpful tool towards approaching what we mentioned?


Yes, philosophy can be a helpful tool. Perhaps let me rephrase: Philosophy can give us answers - but only ever in the human context. When it's about "truth" and "reality" though, I - perhaps others as well - try to peer beyond the human context. Hence, philosophy holds only speculation but no answers about truth and reality because we can not get out of this human context.

It can probably offer a bit more in terms of happiness - but then there are easier ways to find happiness than mulling your brain over it, over and over again.

As for freedom, that's basically just a buzzword for me. Aside from the physical sense, i.e. not being locked up behind bars, it has no real meaning.
Michael Zwingli September 15, 2021 at 13:07 #595157
Quoting leo
Are you chasing after Truth? After a more complete understanding of Reality? After happiness?


I have already decided that "truth", especially ultimate truth and truth pertaining to remote phenomena, will ever elude me. For one thing, my perception of reality decieves me...for another, I am limited by the extent to which I can percieve; at some point in time and space, perception yields to speculation. I would say, that by reading philosophy, I hope to have a better understanding of reality, of the extent to which I can know the nature thereof, and of how I should best speculate beyond the limits of my ability to know.
Ennui Elucidator September 15, 2021 at 13:56 #595171
Quoting Hermeticus
I reckon what philosophy can teach fairly well is imagination and communication.


I found the more philosophy I learned, the less well I could communicate with people. In part because I started being explicitly aware of assumptions and contexts that may or may not be shared. In other ways because I simply stopped talking about "ordinary" things the way that other people did.

By way of silly story, in the middle of my first logic class and coming to terms with the truth values of connectors, I thought it reasonable to say things like, "If you don' acquit my client, you will die" because it was a true statement. Formulations like this (of whatever level of sophistication) impede ordinary speaking and make it very hard to remember what someone might mean if they don't think like you do.
Outlander September 15, 2021 at 14:09 #595180
Ignorance. My own, or at least so I always thought.
T Clark September 15, 2021 at 16:42 #595241
Quoting leo
Are you chasing after Truth? After a more complete understanding of Reality? After happiness?


For me the search is for greater awareness. Of the physical world. Of myself. Of others. Reason and truth are just one path, one that can easily be misleading. Any path to greater awareness can be misleading. Which is why it's so easy to get lost. Which is why we are searching.
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 17:05 #595253
Quoting leo
getting closer to Truth.


There really is no difference, qualitatively speaking of course, between two men lost in the desert, one a 100 miles and the other a 100 yards away from the nearest oasis - each is as thirsty and dehydrated as the other. So close and yet so far!

Quoting Newkomer
It sets you FREE!


I thought the idea was to exchange an ordinary cage for a gilded cage or to arrange to be transferred from a small cell to a larger cell, with a view of the courtyard if possible, a cell nonetheless.

[quote=Yuval Noah Harari (book Sapiens, speaking on the Agricultural Revolution and the domestication of certain plant species)] [...] Who was responsible? Neither kings, nor priests, nor merchants. the culprits were a handful of plant species, including wheat, rice and potatoes. These plants domesticated homo sapiens, rather than vice versa.[/quote]

Are we chasing philosophy or is philosophy chasing us?
180 Proof September 15, 2021 at 18:03 #595276
Quoting leo
Are you chasing after Truth?

No. History/politics, natural sciences & the arts, not philosophy, are truth-pursuits.

After a more complete understanding of Reality?

No. The real (sublimely) surpasses, or exhausts, understanding.

After happiness?

No. 'Pursuing happiness' is like trying to hold on to smoke or chasing rainbows.

Would you agree then with the assessment that the search for Truth, for a more complete understanding of Reality, for happiness, are all connected?

No.

And that deep down this is why you do philosophy?

N/A.
Tom Storm September 15, 2021 at 19:59 #595315
Reply to leo I am not philosopher and have not privileged this subject in my life. I'm not sure that I am looking for anything in particular. Probably to gain a sense of what I may have missed. I like ideas. Some ideas/models/narratives are helpful, some not so much. I guess I'm looking to broaden my range of useful conceptual models. That said, I am not a theorist and have a low boredom threshold for abstruse or needlessly bad, academic jargon. That's just a personal preference.
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 20:40 #595329
Quoting TheMadFool
I thought the idea was to exchange an ordinary cage for a gilded cage or to arrange to be transferred from a small cell to a larger cell, with a view of the courtyard if possible, a cell nonetheless.


That's a dark cynical thought. The whole universe is a cage like that.
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 20:59 #595338
Quoting Philofile
That's a dark cynical thought. The whole universe is a cage like that


A something to nibble on: Why do lies exist? Yes, many reasons there may be but one possibility can't be ruled out - truth is bitter and we tell ourselves fantastical tales to keep us from learning the ugly truth.
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:01 #595341
Quoting TheMadFool
truth is bitter and we tell ourselves fantastical tales to keep us from learning the ugly truth.


The same cynism... I'll nibble somewhere else...
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 21:07 #595345
Quoting Philofile
The same cynism... I'll nibble somewhere else...


If you have any complaints, please contact: The Manager, Mr. Life
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:10 #595347
Quoting TheMadFool
If you have any complaints, please contact: The Manager, Mr. Life


I think you should contact him. Being a mad fool that should be no problem. Mr. Life is mad and foolish. But very interesting and beautiful on top.
Outlander September 15, 2021 at 21:11 #595348
Quoting TheMadFool
truth is bitter and we tell ourselves fantastical tales to keep us from learning the ugly truth.


Truth is that, as you're programmed to believe, and you know you are, mankind has elevated himself slowly but surely from ridiculous purposeless cave beings beating each over the head, living in blood and other undesirable substances, to creatures of intellect with purpose, jobs, joy, emotion, arts, innovation, discovery, the whole universe is now at our fingertips. You call this an ugly truth? Sure, entropy and negentropy are very real concepts. This world and presumably the universe and all things in it are slowly becoming disorganized, chaotic, coming to a stop, a halt, universally they call it a heat death I believe is the prevailing theory, but just look at what was accomplished. Have we, at the absolute very least, had a good run?
Tobias September 15, 2021 at 21:31 #595368
Quoting leo
Are you chasing after Truth? After a more complete understanding of Reality? After happiness?


Girls. I am the first to admit it is a bit of a roundabout way to chase. But Nietzsche was on point: "what if truth was a woman".
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 21:35 #595374
Quoting Philofile
I think you should contact him.


I did and Mr. Life said he can't do anything about it.
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 21:45 #595382
Quoting TheMadFool
I did and Mr. Life said he can't do anything about it.


Then do it yourself. Fuck mr. Life!
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 21:46 #595383
Quoting Outlander
Truth is that, as you're programmed to believe, and you know you are, mankind has elevated himself slowly but surely from ridiculous purposeless cave beings beating each over the head, living in blood and other undesirable substances, to creatures of intellect with purpose, jobs, joy, emotion, arts, innovation, discovery, the whole universe is now at our fingertips. You call this an ugly truth? Sure, entropy and negentropy are very real concepts. This world and presumably the universe and all things in it are slowly becoming disorganized, chaotic, coming to a stop, a halt, universally they call it a heat death I believe is the prevailing theory, but just look at what was accomplished. Have we, at the absolute very least, had a good run?


[math]i)\space Life + Pleasure = Happy[/math]
[math]ii)\space Life - Pleasure = Sad[/math]
[math]iii)\space 2 Life = Happy + Sad\space (Equation\space i + Equation\space ii)[/math]
[math]iv)\space Life = \frac {1}{2}Happy + \frac{1}{2}Sad\space (From \space equation\space iii)[/math]
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 21:55 #595395
Quoting Philofile
Then do it yourself. Fuck mr. Life!


There's nothing I can do! In fact, there's nothing anyone can do about it. Don't you get it?



[quote=The Train Man][...]Down here I make the rules, down here I make the threats,...[PUNCH]..., down here I'm God.[/quote]
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 22:00 #595401
Quoting TheMadFool
There's nothing I can do! In fact, there's nothing anyone can do about it. Don't you get it?


Fatalist... The matrix is a great movie though. "Red or blue...?"
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 22:06 #595411
Quoting Philofile
Fatalist


Mea culpa. Sorry if you don't like the attitude. I can't help it. :grin:

Quoting Philofile
Red or blue


Stalin Or Hitler. Not much of a choice you're offering.
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 22:09 #595413
Quoting TheMadFool
Stalin Or Hitler. Not much of a choice you're offering.


I like the blue pill better. The color of my last mushrooms I took. Spaghetti vision...
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 22:17 #595419
Quoting Philofile
I like the blue pill better. The color of my last mushrooms I took. Spaghetti vision...


Red Pill And Blue Pill

[quote=Wikipedia]The terms "red pill" and "blue pill" refer to a choice between the willingness to learn a potentially unsettling or life-changing truth by taking the red pill or remaining in contented ignorance with the blue pill. The terms refer to a scene in the 1999 film The Matrix.[/quote]

The bitter truth!

And you say I'm cynical.


Tom Storm September 15, 2021 at 22:22 #595425
Quoting Tobias
But Nietzsche was on point: "what if truth was a woman".


Hmmm - what does that even mean? Aphorisms are amusing but are they anything more than glib provocations?
Philofile September 15, 2021 at 22:26 #595428
Wikipedia:the willingness to learn a potentially unsettling or life-changing truth


The life-changing truth I found made me change from cynical too childish naive again.
TheMadFool September 15, 2021 at 22:35 #595438
Quoting 180 Proof
No. History/politics, natural sciences & the arts, not philosophy, are truth-pursuits.

After a more complete understanding of Reality?
No. The real (sublimely) surpasses, or exhausts, understanding.

After happiness?
No. 'Pursuing happiness' is like trying to hold on to smoke or chasing rainbows.

Would you agree then with the assessment that the search for Truth, for a more complete understanding of Reality, for happiness, are all connected?
No.

And that deep down this is why you do philosophy?
N/A.


:fire: Keep it coming!

Tom Storm September 15, 2021 at 22:43 #595451
Quoting TheMadFool
i) Life+Pleasure=Happyi) Life+Pleasure=Happy
ii) Life?Pleasure=Sadii) Life?Pleasure=Sad
iii) 2Life=Happy+Sad (Equation i+Equation ii)iii) 2Life=Happy+Sad (Equation i+Equation ii)
iv) Life=12Happy+12Sad (From equation iii)


Have you ever noticed how sad so many happy people are?
TheMadFool September 16, 2021 at 00:05 #595507
Quoting Tom Storm
Have you ever noticed how sad so many happy people are?


Sorry, I was too sad to notice.
Philofile September 16, 2021 at 02:37 #595581
I'm chasing after new words and sentences they are contained in. Philosophy is ideal for that, reading all the beatifully constructed comments here. :smile:
Tobias September 16, 2021 at 05:56 #595715
Quoting Tom Storm
Hmmm - what does that even mean? Aphorisms are amusing but are they anything more than glib provocations?


"What does that even mean?" whenever I read this line I imagine a baby analytic philosopher hitting his little fist against his chair demanding meaning! meaning! but that aside. It is a metaphor and Nietzsche wrote a couple of pages explaining it rather clearly, especially considering how he usually writes. Anyway both appear in a certain way and both demand a certain approach.
Tom Storm September 16, 2021 at 07:55 #595771
Quoting Tobias
"What does that even mean?" whenever I read this line I imagine a baby analytic philosopher hitting his little fist against his chair demanding meaning! meaning! but that aside.


Sounds like you've had a bad experience. Not sure I have ever met an analytic philosopher.

But I note that you didn't explain the quote and since you used it, I was wondering what you were saying through it about truth and women? Feel free to borrow further from Nietzsche if that helps.
Tobias September 16, 2021 at 21:14 #596047
Quoting Tom Storm
Sounds like you've had a bad experience. Not sure I have ever met an analytic philosopher.


No not really, most analytic philosophers I met were perfectly nice people. I just find the question "what does it even mean" a bit chidish, probably because they use it a lot, so in that sense you might be right. Also you asking me to explain Nietzsche I find a bit odd,"hey tell me what it means!" While I would say either know it, or look it up.

But anyway, I do not mind explaining and talking about it a bit. Well, I liked the reference because Nietzsche had a nice chapter about how philosophers approach truth, in a crude way as if truth will immediately answer every question posed to it. So he compared truth to a woman, You do not approach a woman like that immediately demanding looking up her skirt. I liked the quote saying I am not looking for truth or other high minded persuits, but I like to approach women by doing philosophy. So it was a bit playful. It is not untrue though, I think philosophy is actually profoundly sexual and that its imagery and lines of argument are sexual metaphors.
Tom Storm September 16, 2021 at 22:46 #596081
Reply to Tobias Ok. Thanks. I don't understand your account of what Nietzsche means but I find generally find Nietzsche unreadable (even the Kaufmann translations) so that's fine. Personal taste and things... I suspected it was more in the manner of his antipathy towards women and foundationalism.

Quoting Tobias
as if truth will immediately answer every question posed to it.


Truth by definition leaves no follow up questions except, perhaps why? But that's another matter for another time.

Quoting Tobias
I think philosophy is actually profoundly sexual


I consider sex profoundly philosophical so I guess it takes all sorts. :wink:

Quoting Tobias
I just find the question "what does it even mean" a bit chidish


I would have thought this a key question of philosophy. Most things seem to go wrong when we don't understand each other. But perhaps my putting the word 'even' in there gave it a slightly hectoring rhetorical quality which was unintended.

:pray:
jgill September 16, 2021 at 23:38 #596108
Busy day for the moderators.

I'm not chasing after anything with philosophy; I'm simply watching it flow past like a murky stream. The days of the classical philosophers are gone, but their dated thoughts come up over and over. That's fine with me. The natural sciences and mathematics have moved on and philosophy has given way to speculation leading to advancements.

However, philosophical discussions on social and legal issues seem relevant.
Manuel September 16, 2021 at 23:45 #596111
Reply to leo

I'd like to smooth out a metaphysical system I like to find as many continuities as possible between most fields of knowledge, if at all possible.
Tom Storm September 16, 2021 at 23:51 #596113
Reply to Manuel Interesting, and this is not intended as criticism - does this make you a system builder, a theorist - neither or both?
Manuel September 17, 2021 at 00:00 #596114
Reply to Tom Storm

That's hard to say. I don't personally like the word "theorist" too much, I think it is often invoked by people who studied the social sciences, as I have, (international relations, comparative politics, history, etc.) as a kind of badge of honor when there are no theories here worthy of the name.

So maybe a system builder, perhaps, of "rationalistic idealist" variety. Whatever the name, I think there are similarities between a vast range of different fields. But it starts with the subject, I think.

But by all means, criticize or argue. Otherwise I won't learn as fast.
Corvus September 17, 2021 at 01:28 #596137
Reply to leo

View from different aspects and logical clarity on the issues.
180 Proof September 17, 2021 at 03:45 #596167
Reply to Tobias :up:

Reply to Tom Storm I'm fond of that 'woman-truth' metaphor as well, to which I add another quote-fragment that extends (intensifies with my added emphasis) Tobias' quotation
Quoting 180 Proof
"And thus spoke the little old woman: You go to women? Do not forget the whip!" ... for Her to use :sweat:
~Freddy Zarathustra

which I've always interpreted as 'while truth concealed by dissembling feminine-like appearances' ..., 'truth is a dominatrix' to which every 'truth-seeker' must submit – never possessing or ever controlling her. For Freddy, 'the will to truth' is more often than not emasculating, or de-naturalizing (re: technoscience "disenchants" instead of cultivates human nature (i.e. higher animality)), a life-negating (weakening, even sickening – "slavish") expression of the will to power. Loving this 'goddess Truth', at best Freddy suggests, is never fully reciprocated and exacts a profound psychological, or spiritual, price which her suitors must deny to themselves, or sublimate somehow, in order to live with her faithfully on their knees. Freddy, IMO, seems to be saying to Enlightenment, science-envying, modern philosophers et al: amor fati, bitches. :smirk:
Pinprick September 17, 2021 at 04:18 #596187
Reply to leo

I think following would be a better description than chasing. Curiosity leads me wherever it wishes..somehow I’ve found myself here. :chin:
Tom Storm September 17, 2021 at 04:40 #596200
Quoting 180 Proof
I'm fond of that 'woman-truth' metaphor as well


Thanks for clarifying it. It's beyond me but good to know.
Tobias September 17, 2021 at 05:56 #596223
Quoting 180 Proof
which I've always interpreted as 'while truth concealed by dissembling feminine-like appearances' ..., 'truth is a dominatrix' to which every 'truth-seeker' must submit – never possessing or ever controlling her. For Freddy, 'the will to truth' is more often than not emasculating, or de-naturalizing (re: technoscience "disenchants" instead of cultivates human nature (i.e. higher animality)), a life-negating (weakening, even sickening – "slavish") expression of the will to power. Loving this 'goddess Truth', at best Freddy suggests, is never fully reciprocated and exacts a profound psychological, or spiritual, price which her suitors must deny to themselves, or sublimate somehow, in order to live with her faithfully on their knees. Freddy, IMO, seems to be saying to Enlightenment, science-envying, modern philosophers et al: amor fati, bitches. :smirk:


I agree, but I read Nietzsche also as calling forth an active spirit. We need to submit, but also to command in the sense of setting values, proclaiming truth, governing as well as being governed, in a state of tension, For me it is closely related to the master slave dialectic and Foucault's concept of power as both enabling and dominating, a dance in which at some point the ,movements start to flow into each other and who leads and who follows becomes unclear. I think the relation between truth and power is one of Nietzsche's most profound and productive insights, but how he sees the relationship exactly is ambivalent.

But then, yesterday with a hidden reference to one of your self descriptions Proof, I called myself a truthtrickster in response to a plea to criminalize denying climate change on the basis of our obligation to tell the truth. Here I saw truth and power to coincide withouth the speaker knowing it. So I am sceptical of seeking the truth, the relationship is more important. That is why for me philosophy is about seduction, a game in which, when done correctly, the participants share mutual love. When played with truth: your love for truth deepens and so does her love for you, that is, she makes life easier. Possession though, or utter submission ends the game and makes one a dogmatic, dry and Nordic.
baker September 17, 2021 at 16:37 #596472
Quoting Tom Storm
Have you ever noticed how sad so many happy people are?

It's called "smiling depression".
Thunderballs September 17, 2021 at 17:13 #596481
Quoting baker
It's called "smiling depression".


Smiling cynism seems more appropiate. I wonder if they know what a true depression feels like.
Valentinus September 17, 2021 at 21:22 #596596
Reply to leo
Aristotle answers this question in a direct fashion that I appreciate. To summarize:

We wonder what is going on in this place we have arrived. The wonder is natural, not as a description but the discovery of a condition of knowing very little. We seek knowledge for the sake of knowing. The desire is different from wanting to produce better or get our way in the world. It is its own thing.

To not accept the desire on those terms is an argument. To accept them is simply acceptance.
baker September 19, 2021 at 13:11 #597428
Quoting Thunderballs
It's called "smiling depression".
— baker

Smiling cynism seems more appropiate. I wonder if they know what a true depression feels like.


No, I'm talking about "smiling depression":

Usually, depression is associated with sadness, lethargy, and despair — someone who can’t make it out of bed. Though someone experiencing depression can undoubtedly feel these things, how depression presents itself can vary from person to person.

“Smiling depression” is a term for someone living with depression on the inside while appearing perfectly happy or content on the outside. Their public life is usually one that’s “put together,” maybe even what some would call normal or perfect.

https://www.healthline.com/health/smiling-depression


By some accounts, this is the most dangerous type of depression and that it's such smilingly depressed people who are more likely to commit suicide.
Thunderballs September 19, 2021 at 15:15 #597471
Quoting baker
No, I'm talking about "smiling depression":


I had a hard time hiding it. When Corona came along I could use it as a nice excuse to stay indoors. I didn't leave the house for eight months. Didn't sleep for 4 months! I quit my med cold turkey. Now I feel freed and the beast of depression, that depressing animal, doesnt return. Im sure!