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is it ethical to tell a white lie?

Nicholas Mihaila August 29, 2021 at 11:25 8175 views 48 comments
From an ethical standpoint, what is an appropriate level of honesty? If viewed from a pragmatic perspective the question is easy. As a rule, tell the truth, but, if necessary to spare somebody’s feelings, tell a “white lie,” assuming the matter is fairly inconsequential. But how does that fit in with ethics?

Lately I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit, particularly in regards to relationships. If, for instance, a girls asks you, “Do you think I’m prettier than her?” pointing to another girl, should you always answer honestly? You can imagine scenarios that are much more sensitive, but you get the idea.

Anyway, I’m really just looking for input. I hate the idea of having a “nuanced” position when it comes to honesty. I’d rather always tell the truth, but that can cause problems. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Comments (48)

Tom Storm August 29, 2021 at 11:29 #586287
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila Hypothetical. Let's say you know Jews are hiding from the Nazi's in an attic of the home next door to you. An SS officer asks you if you know if any Jews are hiding nearby. Do you tell the truth?
Nicholas Mihaila August 29, 2021 at 11:45 #586294
Reply to Tom Storm Absolutely not. So lies can be ethical, as you pointed out. I'll have to think about that some more. That's a great example.
DingoJones August 30, 2021 at 00:00 #586525
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila

Thats the problem principal based ethics, when certain actions are prohibited (ethically speaking). Lying, killing, stealing…as soon as you suggest a particular action is “wrong”, its trivially easy to come up with clear exceptions to the rule.
In the nazi scenario above the person who tells the truth about the jews because its “the ethical thing to do” is a moral monster. These principal based ethics, by which I mean “so and so action is ethically wrong”, lead to logical contradictions and therefore should be rejected imo.
I would add further that principal based ethics are lazy (or hopelessly ambitious) as well. A proper ethical consideration should be case by case, the specifics of each moral situation logged and analysed. While Its understandable that that isnt always practical and ethics will inevitably lose out to practicality at times I would say that in general these sorts of dogmatic servitude to whatever principal don’t even qualify as an ethical principal. In the nazi example we all imagine the truth teller to be quite the opposite of an ethical person and Im not sure the vast majority of ethical principals people have function any different logically speaking/
BC August 30, 2021 at 01:21 #586534
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
“Do you think I’m prettier than her?”


"What is ethical" isn't always obvious.

An objective evaluation of appearance is not being sought here. What is being requested is validation. The questioner wants to hear that she is an attractive person. Is there some reason you can not validate this person by saying "yes"?

The SS officer asking you about Jews hiding nearby is a clearcut ethical conflict between a simplistic, rigid rule (always tell the truth) and a higher requirement that one protect the innocent or that one preserve life.

Sort your ethical priorities in descending order, from what is the most important ethical consideration; to what ethical considerations are of middling importance, and which ethical considerations are least important. What can you live with, and what can you not?

The key ethical consideration should help you determine the course of action for lesser ethical considerations. So, what is your top ethical consideration?
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 01:32 #586538
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TheMadFool August 30, 2021 at 02:16 #586555
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila
I like the Buddhist take on ethics - it's an amalgamation of utilitarianism and deontological ethics.

Take @Tom Storm's example of the person who lies to save some Jews from a horrible fate at the hands of Nazis. As per Buddhist ethics, you are rewarded for saving those people but...also punished for the lie you told. Interesting, right?

A white lie, as the name itself suggests in my humble opinion, is both good (white) and bad (lie). Dialetheists and paraconsistent logicians should feel vindicated for claiming there are true contradictions! Amazing, don't you think?

To appreciate the contradiction, you need to consider both utilitarianism and deontological ethics, together, as one system of morality.

@Wayfarer, anything to add/delete/modify?
Prishon August 30, 2021 at 03:09 #586566
My wife has the uncanny habit to wanno know everything of my whereabouts. I tend to forget taking my phone with me when I go to Amsterdam to visit my mum and granny. Now she is worried that Im gonna buy oxazepam at a local pharmacist. She should be, as I left an addiction to that shit behind me. I took 10 50 mg pills a day. I quit when my provider died (and let me tell you, quiting cold turkey can better be framed as a zero Kelvin turkey!). But I can also buy it on the net. During that zeroK turkey I lost even the ability to buy a train ticket at the automat... But a few months ago, I couldnt resist. I bought some of it on the net (I had to buy bitcoins first). To my surprise an envelope did indeed arrive. She gave me the envelope. "This one's for you. What's in it?". I told her I bought some stamps I saw at an auction. That they were very cheap and I could sell them for more. Now Im not sure what happened the following 24 hours. I cant remember. But certainly she must have noticed something. I couldnt find the rest of the 3 strips of 10. I surely didnt eat them. She didnt say anything about it. Was it wrong to lie about the stamps?
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 03:31 #586577
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 03:45 #586587
Reply to tim wood

I will kill myself. Thanks for this cheering comment!
Prishon August 30, 2021 at 03:47 #586588
Reply to tim wood Quoting tim wood
My axiom is that an addict, as addict, is not a person, and it is a fundamental and dangerous mistake to treat or regard the addict as a person


You must change axiom. Im proof its wrong. As far as I (and others) can tell, im a person!
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 03:51 #586590
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 03:51 #586591
Quoting tim wood
an addict, as addict


Explain! You are the kind of person who never weeps. For sure. I know your kind!
Prishon August 30, 2021 at 03:57 #586594
Quoting tim wood
commit yourself.


Wtf you know about commitment?
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 03:58 #586595
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 03:58 #586596
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila

No. Its unethical. But should this stop me?
Prishon August 30, 2021 at 03:59 #586597
Quoting tim wood
And I'm not interested.


The why did you start?
Prishon August 30, 2021 at 04:00 #586599
Quoting tim wood
I did my weeping, until I saw the uselessness


Typical!
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 04:00 #586600
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 04:01 #586601
Quoting tim wood
turn around and face the storm


Thats exactly what I do! Its causing the tears.
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 04:03 #586603
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 04:04 #586604
Quoting tim wood
Then you know the truth of it. So don't bulls**t!


Which truth?
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 04:16 #586611
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 04:28 #586620
Quoting tim wood
Go ask the people you've committed yourself to.


My wife is fine with me... She LOVES me... If you know the meaning of that word. The corporate you are talking about "was" indifferent. They give me a daily dose of metaphy.... eeeh, methadone but when I was deep in the hole they didnt care about me. Had they supplies me with oxazepam I wouldnt have been awake and feeling shit for four months. On the other hand, Im free of that stuff now, so maybe it has been good. But they know I could have died from it. Its bad for your memiry, say they.
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 04:38 #586627
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 04:51 #586633
Quoting tim wood
Are you that addict?


Im not sure. Lets say, Im not standard. Addicted, in Dutch, is "verslaafd", meaning "enslaved". I dont feel as a slave of methadone though.
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 04:57 #586638
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Prishon August 30, 2021 at 05:00 #586641
Reply to tim wood
Goodnight. In fact it was better talking to you than the "caring" corporate.
Cheshire August 30, 2021 at 05:01 #586642
Quoting Nicholas Mihaila
From an ethical standpoint, what is an appropriate level of honesty?
Based on a thread I spun a few weeks ago it comes down to analysis of two parts. One is strict morality and the other one permissibility. It's immoral to lie and permissible to do so if no value is lost as a result. Since, lying to your wife about another woman's appearance doesn't devalue your wife or the other woman; then it is permissible to do so. If for some reason your wife needs objective input and this is some complex gaslighting it would be a hypothetical exception.

Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 05:06 #586645
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Cheshire August 30, 2021 at 05:11 #586646
Reply to tim wood Kant has a legal definition of lying that is misunderstood. To lie in Kant's legal sense entails cheating some one in some way. It's been misunderstood from people only referencing the secondary arguments against it. Banno gave me a link to a great paper on it a year ago. Verda I want to say is the author.
Prishon August 30, 2021 at 05:32 #586653
Quoting tim wood
But I'm up late and you're up very late. Good night.


Was that a lie to quit the subject? ?
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 13:40 #586816
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James Riley August 30, 2021 at 13:53 #586825
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila

I knew a man, a fellow Recon Marine, who prided himself on his brutal honesty. He said he never lied. I would have asked him if pretending to be vegetation (something he was not) was lying. I couldn't ask him because he was the administrator of a discussion forum from which I had been banned. Regardless, I think the way we painted ourselves up was intentionally deceitful. We were experts at it. Granted, we were trying to deceive "the enemy" but still, it was a lie. So, I think many would agree it is ethical to lie to your enemy.

Also, here is one of my favorite quotes:

" In some western states this technique of elaboration to the point where it merges into untruth, is called “stuffing dudes.” Every native born westerner numbers among his inalienable rights the license to use this technique upon occasion, and considers it a gross breach of hospitality if a visitor leaves without having had a few whoppers thrown in with the usual descriptions of the country and it’s customs. Several subjects are rarely discussed under such circumstances without stretching the truth, and in telling the Colter legend, by tradition, it has become almost compulsory to exaggerate. And since no one can study Colter’s accomplishments without being affected to some degree by the contagious desire to improve on truth, I have thought it wise to work off my touch of the disease in Chapter One. Stern searchers after fact are hereby directed to begin reading at Chapter Two.
. . .
The men of the frontier believed that if a yarn told with punctilious respect for the truth fell on unbelieving ears, it was proper to elaborate on the story and make it a good one.
. . .
Therefore, it is obvious that the traditional ridicule of the stories about Colter’s Hell did not originate with his contemporaries, but rather with those who preferred to rely upon the writings of cloistered, learned men and scoffed at the reports of those who told of what they had actually seen."

John Colter, His Years in the Rockies, By Burton Harris, Bison Books, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln and London, 1993.

In summary, the ethics of lying can be, well, elastic. LOL!
Cheshire August 30, 2021 at 14:59 #586859
Quoting tim wood
?Cheshire No. The hazards of reading Banno or Verda(?) when it's easy enough to read the man himself, quoted by me about 26 posts above. The way I read it, lying is always wrong, but defensible under a narrow set of conditions.


Well, I said; it was immoral and permissible in the conditions set forward in the OP regarding a man's wife asking about another woman's appearance. It falls in line with always wrong, but defensible under a set of conditions.

In regards to, "No. The hazards of reading Banno or Verda(?)"; suppose I just answer 'No' to the rest of your statements, how much weight would it carry with you? The case of the murderer at the door was a question of legal liability and not an example of ethical judgement. Kant was illustrating that telling the murderer the truth didn't constitute legal liability, because there is no way to ensure that a lie would have protected the neighbor seeking refuge. You'll notice your own quote discusses the lie and the intentions of the person using the information. It's the same basis we have now for legal fraud. Saying it's always wrong to lie (in Kant's legal sense) is the same as saying it's always wrong to commit fraud.

The wrongly established notion that Kant the grandmaster of objective morality would make such a flat footed argument is ridiculous and the popular position in academia; I've satisfied myself after looking into it in detail. Banno never offered a position, I requested reference material for a paper I was writing, so any knee jerk response to him has no bearing on the matter. So, Yes.

TheMadFool August 30, 2021 at 15:14 #586871
Here's the problem: If you accept white lies, you must either, at a minimum, condone or, at a maximum, embrace black truths (hurtful truths); they are, after all, mirror images of each other (flipped across two axes). Is everyone ok with this?
Deleted User August 30, 2021 at 15:19 #586876
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TheMadFool August 30, 2021 at 16:09 #586895
Quoting Prishon
Was that a lie to quit the subject?


The subject: quit lying
Prishon August 30, 2021 at 16:15 #586900
Quoting TheMadFool
The subject: quit lying


Why should one? Because its unethical? Why should that stop one? Because God says?
Cheshire August 30, 2021 at 16:28 #586907
Reply to tim wood https://philpapers.org/archive/VARKAL.pdf

Quoting tim wood
A point about Kant's permissible/defensible lie: he says you can't assure someone that you are telling the truth, and then lie to him. And I get it. I presume you do too.

And "defensible" because Kant seems to say that all lying is bad. From that I infer never permissible, but defensible. Like using gun to defend a home: not permissible but defensible, and all manner of evils befall the homeowner whose use is not defensible.


It's more of a semantics matter to me when presented in this way. If you feel the precision of language achieves something, then I don't fault you. I don't see the need to prefer one term.

Nicholas Mihaila August 31, 2021 at 00:04 #587097
Reply to DingoJones I agree completely. Finding counterexamples is easy and the approach is undoubtedly lazy.

Reply to Bitter Crank I understand that the purpose of the question is validation, but isn't it unfair to assume that the person asking doesn't want the truth? In that case you're making an assumption about a lack of maturity, which, if revealed, could just as easily be as offensive as the truth. Shouldn't the person asking the question take responsibility?
A Christian Philosophy August 31, 2021 at 16:16 #587477
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila Hello.

Premises:
P1: Some acts are good, e.g. honesty and saving lives, and some are evil, e.g. lying and killing.
P2: Some good acts are better than others, e.g. saving lives is better than honesty; some are worse than others, e.g. killing is worse than lying.
These premises are known through the Principle of Universal Perception: we all perceive the same value for these acts.

Now the goal is to maximize the good and minimize the evil for a given situation.
To use @Tom Storm's example: It is morally good to lie to the nazi to save the jew because lying is a lesser evil than killing.
Manuel August 31, 2021 at 16:22 #587482
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila

I think it is unavoidable to say "white lies" and living in a society in which brutal honesty is expected in every waking moment would be quite taxing.

Of course, there are shades of white lies, from small ones such as saying your day was great today to bigger white lies like saying you can't meet up with a friend because you're in a meeting.

I think life is too difficult to suscribe to a "black and white" system of ethics, so to speak. Having said that little white lies pose no problem that I can see in relation to an ethical system at all.
Nicholas Mihaila September 01, 2021 at 22:46 #588177
Reply to Samuel Lacrampe I've never heard it quite described in that way, but I love it!

Reply to Manuel It would definitely be very taxing. And, as mentioned earlier, any "black and white" system of ethics breaks down pretty quickly.
dimosthenis9 September 01, 2021 at 23:45 #588193
Reply to Nicholas Mihaila

There is nothing bad with lies which doesn't do any harm at all.
Ethics have made lying look like a "sin" but sometimes are necessary and much preferred than the "truth". At the end at many cases we don't even know what the "truth" is. We are just having opinions which we think that these are the only and absolute truth.

We always have to examine the "purpose" of the lie as to determine if it's ethical or not. Same with the truth. When truth is used just to make harm and cause sadness to others, well no that's neither ethical!

If my friend bought an expensive coat and asks me "do I look nice on it?" what's the point not to make him happy by telling him a lie even if I don't believe it?? At the end it's just a fucking coat, let him be happy about it. At that kind of questions,and in other cases too, I see no harm or something unethical with lies at all.

World is full of rude, impolite assholes that think they are "just honest" and they are proud about it.
I much prefer a polite "liar" than those wannabe "truth warriors".
gloaming September 02, 2021 at 20:38 #588512
Reply to Cheshire Lying to someone IS cheating them. You are cheating them from the truth, which every person has a right to expect from you. To do otherwise is dissembling. If my wife were to learn that I had lied to her, no matter how lily white the lie, about an article of clothing after which she lusts, and I had told her that it looked good on her when I felt otherwise, she would be hurt by my deceit. More than that, it would damage our marriage because she would learn that I will lie to her when faced with some tension, discomfort, or desire to spare her from the truth.
Snake September 02, 2021 at 21:01 #588517
Hehe. I learned that you can say «I’m not answering that question».
Cheshire September 02, 2021 at 21:58 #588533
Quoting gloaming
More than that, it would damage our marriage because she would learn that I will lie to her when faced with some tension, discomfort, or desire to spare her from the truth.

I've heard varations of this argument over the years. One professor claimed that failing to give a movie a bad review would somehow lead to the fall of civilization. I like to think of myself as honest as the next person, but I think we omit, temper, and rationalize plenty of information. If you've never been served food you'd rather not eat by some one you care about that can't cook then you are as fortunate as you are honest.

If I give some one inaccurate information; they don't feel cheated. If I reserve the truth of the matter to spare emotions i.e. apologize when I'm not wrong, I've taken nothing. In any case Kant wouldn't suppose a duty to a murderer anyway. It's the most well defended absurdity in modern academic philosophy.

But, to the OP. Your wife has relationship attachment constancy well enough to know you aren't suddenly untrustworthy. The argument put forward isn't realistic.

Further more; listing the immoral things defeats the purpose of a catagorical imparitive. If you are correct than the whole of Kant's moral philosophy is some how redundant and for the most part unuttered. Going on, if he was going to start compiling the list of always wrong things then why start with lying? Seems battery and murder would be worth mention prior to defending the notion that misc. misdirections and polite omissions would be impermissible just cause they are impermissible. Instead, Kant hates lying on all counts; regardless if it treats a person as a means to an end. I'm not the one making the radical claim here.

Snake September 03, 2021 at 00:35 #588567
I think that generally breaking the moral “code” is unethical. There are times however when they “need” to be broken and by doing so makes you more ethical. Instead of just following rules.