You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Free Markets or Central Planning?

Mikie August 23, 2021 at 19:13 8650 views 68 comments
Clearly the choice between free market and centrally planned economies is a false one. Yet these are the options in the minds of many people I talk to and many of our members. I think this is a limited way of thinking about organizing societies and a mistake.

The real question is: What's so great about "markets" to begin with?

Comments (68)

NOS4A2 August 23, 2021 at 20:11 #583505
Reply to Xtrix

I choose free markets because I cannot think of anyone or any group, past or present, with the knowledge and foresight to plan any economy. Only I know what goods and services I need to purchase, and therefor only I am the one competent enough to make that decision.

The great thing about "markets" are that they represent the space in which goods and services can be bought and sold. Without markets there is no such space.
litewave August 23, 2021 at 20:30 #583509
The idea of a centrally planned economy was destroyed in 1989. The idea of free markets was destroyed even earlier, in 1929. Since then most of the world has realized that you need a vehicle that can turn both left and right.
James Riley August 23, 2021 at 20:33 #583511
Quoting NOS4A2
I choose free markets


As long as all costs are internalized among those who voluntarily agree to assume them, and are paid to do so in good faith and fair dealing, then I'm good with that.

Quoting NOS4A2
Only I know what goods and services I need to purchase


I'd just like to take this opportunity to interject a distinction between "want" and "need." If you want a cheep piece of Chinese plastic shit, then I don't care what you want, or if the markets will allow you to get it; You should be denied. I'd be happy to centrally plan that denial. I've got the knowledge and foresight to do that. I'm competent to tell you that you don't need that. Because, really, you are just benefiting from communism and we all know you are not a communist. This analysis extends likewise to the purchase of products from sellers who benefit from dictators, fascists, misogynists, homophobes, corporate polluters and others who externalize their costs in the product of the widget that you want. Yeah, I can do that. Make me King and I'll make sure you do run afoul of your own standards or my standards.
ssu August 23, 2021 at 20:34 #583512
Quoting Xtrix
The real question is: What's so great about "markets" to being with?


What's so great with central planning?

In fact, the real question is why are the most successful and wealthy countries mixed economies?

Start with the facts, not ideology.

(Ok, I get it, this is a philosophy forum. But still guys.)
NOS4A2 August 23, 2021 at 20:48 #583517
Reply to James Riley

You lack the data to make such decisions. That's ok, though, everyone lacks that knowledge.
Mikie August 23, 2021 at 20:51 #583519
Quoting NOS4A2
The great thing about "markets" are that they represent the space in which goods and services can be bought and sold. Without markets there is no such space.


And what's so great about buying and selling things?

Quoting NOS4A2
I choose free markets because I cannot think of anyone or any group, past or present, with the knowledge and foresight to plan any economy. Only I know what goods and services I need to purchase, and therefor only I am the one competent enough to make that decision.


But we already have a planned economy. It's planned internally, in the corporation, and by massive intervention by the state in the form of subsidies and bailouts. It's planned -- it's just planned by the wealthy. The "decision" you give is an illusion. The public largely favors public transportation, which isn't an option. Your choices are between Ford, Toyota, GM, etc. The largest voting bloc in the US are independents -- yet we get the "choice" of two factions of a business party.

Your ideas reduce the individual to be a consumer/chooser of what's presented to him. That's a mistake, in government and in business.

Mikie August 23, 2021 at 20:58 #583521
Quoting litewave
The idea of free markets was destroyed even earlier, in 1929.


And rose again in the 1970s, and which has dominated corporate and political governance ever since. From the boardrooms of Wall Street, to Capitol Hill, to the White House, this ideology of "free enterprise" has prevailed. To stop our historical analysis with the crash of 1929 and its aftermath is incomplete.

Quoting ssu
What's so great with central planning?


Nothing whatsoever -- in fact I'm against it.

Quoting ssu
In fact, the real question is why are the most successful and wealthy countries mixed economies?


Some of the poorest are also mixed economies. Why? Because nearly every economy in the world is mixed -- from China to India, to Japan and New Zealand, to Canada and Belize.

Quoting ssu
Start with the facts, not ideology.


That's exactly what I did, by pointing out that the choice between centrally planned economies and free market economies is a false one.

litewave August 23, 2021 at 21:16 #583524
Quoting Xtrix
And rose again in the 1970s, and which has dominated corporate and political governance ever since. From the boardrooms of Wall Street, to Capitol Hill, to the White House, this ideology of "free enterprise" has prevailed.


Interspersed with collectivist stuff like Obamacare and now Biden's infrastructure bill.
James Riley August 23, 2021 at 21:23 #583527
Quoting NOS4A2
You lack the data to make such decisions.


Data! Data! I don't need no stinking Data!
NOS4A2 August 23, 2021 at 21:29 #583530
Reply to Xtrix

Trade has been an important aspect of humanity since time immemorial. It's probably hard-wired into our DNA. Whether good or bad its just what we do.

I'm well aware that there is no free trade in the world, but that isn't to say that there should or shouldn't be. The fact that slavery was commonplace was no valid argument that abolition wasn't possible.
Mikie August 23, 2021 at 21:35 #583532
Quoting litewave
And rose again in the 1970s, and which has dominated corporate and political governance ever since. From the boardrooms of Wall Street, to Capitol Hill, to the White House, this ideology of "free enterprise" has prevailed.
— Xtrix

Interspersed with collectivist stuff like Obamacare


Obamacare isn't "collectivist." Obama was a neoliberal as well. Notice what the country really wanted -- a public option -- was quickly removed from the table. Obama is just as much dominated by this free market ideology as Clinton.

Mikie August 23, 2021 at 21:41 #583536
Quoting NOS4A2
Trade has been an important aspect of humanity since time immemorial.


So has rape. I didn't ask about its ubiquity or its history.

Quoting NOS4A2
It's probably hard-wired into our DNA. Whether good or bad its just what we do.


And I'm asking: "What's so good about it?" Or is it good at all? Plato and Aristotle had some things to say about them, things which were far different from people you often parrot -- Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, Hayek, etc -- had to say about them.

Market fundamentalism has destroyed this country over the last 40 years. Right along with shareholder value theory and trickle-down economics. All in the name of "freedom" and "individualism."

Meanwhile, the only result is the very wealthy have gotten wealthier. And they can always count on the false consciousness of people like you in continuing to defend it.



Albero August 23, 2021 at 21:42 #583539
I honestly think a decentralized planned economy sounds much more appealing than a centralized one. If you go by the libertarian socialist lines of thought loosely organized communities can probably determine what they need and what to produce more than a central government. Gift economies are also very interesting but I can only imagine such a loose and voluntary form of exchange existing in small neighborhoods or rural communities.

I’m looking through this thread and I don’t understand how some here are saying current policies are “collectivist” (whatever that means). Capitalist economics is extremely planned with constant input from governments, central banks, venture capital or private equity firms like Bain Capital or Goldman Sachs. Even further down the supply chain most stores know how much production is needed to fulfill certain requirements of production, my time in grocery stores we knew pretty much down to the hour the amount of stock we would need to fulfill the needs of the people that walk through the door. What makes those levels of administration and direction any more promoting of freedom than government or networks of distributors and administrators?
litewave August 23, 2021 at 21:48 #583540
Quoting Xtrix
Obamacare isn't "collectivist."


Well, it's funded with increased taxes and mandates insurers to accept those with preexisting conditions without extra charging.
Mikie August 23, 2021 at 21:49 #583541
Quoting Albero
I honestly think a decentralized planned economy sounds much more appealing than a centralized one. If you go by the libertarian socialist lines of thought loosely organized communities can probably determine what they need and what to produce more than a central government


I generally agree, but this gets back to the debate the framers had in the 1780s. Given our current economy, you cannot avoid disaster without a central bank.

What the real problem is isn't markets, but ideology -- namely, our current conceptions of capitalism. Socialism and communism -- and slavery, and feudalism, etc -- had markets. Markets existed in ancient Greece and Rome.

What we have suffered under since the 70s is free market fundamentalism. Ideas like the "efficient market hypothesis," and things to that effect. All of it has lead to exactly the facts we see around us: huge income inequality, stagnant real wages, loss of unions, more precarious work, gig economies, corporate consolidation, stock buybacks, shadow banking, government bailouts, etc.


Mikie August 23, 2021 at 21:51 #583542
Quoting litewave
Well, it's funded with increased taxes and mandates insurers to accept those with preexisting conditions without extra charging.


Yes, when it should have done what the people wanted, and joined the rest of the civilized world: universal health care or, at least (and as promised), a public option. Neither of which happened, thanks to the pressure from insurance companies.
NOS4A2 August 23, 2021 at 21:57 #583544
Reply to Xtrix

For me trade is good because it is the only means with which I can buy and sell goods and services. There are other means to acquire goods and services, for instance through robbery and coercion, but I oppose such activity for moral reasons. Perhaps you have a better idea? Or do you expect things to fall in your lap?

I still see nothing wrong with wealth. A wealthy person presents an opportunity to me. Wealth isn't a zero-sum game so you shouldn't have much to fear save for your own envy.
Mikie August 24, 2021 at 13:20 #583830
Quoting NOS4A2
For me trade is good because it is the only means with which I can buy and sell goods and services.


I know what trade means. I'm asking why it's good. Your answer: "trade is good because it's trade."

Nevermind -- go back to sleep, as usual.

Quoting NOS4A2
Or do you expect things to fall in your lap?


Quoting NOS4A2
Wealth isn't a zero-sum game so you shouldn't have much to fear save for your own envy.


Can't help dragging out tired slogans from your brainwashed cold war youth, can you?

Yes, it must be that I am envious of wealthy people and expect things to "fall into my lap." :lol:
frank August 24, 2021 at 13:30 #583834
Quoting Xtrix
The real question is: What's so great about "markets" to being with?


I think theyre lauded for their self regulation.

Think of a village that collects water. In order to help them, you build a large asphalt highway between the village and the creek.

Later, to your dismay, you find that the villagers never use your feature. Instead, they walk through the forest where it's cool and pick persimmons and rabbit tobacco on their way.

The wisdom you learn is to watch what people do naturally instead of trying to dictate their actions. What they do naturally evolves in keeping with the environment.
Deleted User August 24, 2021 at 13:39 #583840
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Deleted User August 24, 2021 at 13:46 #583843
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Philosophim August 24, 2021 at 13:57 #583844
Each are tools that are used for specific problems based on the culture and needs of your society. Free markets at their extreme are simply the idea that I can sell anything I want to anyone else without regulation or taxes.
A friend says, "Hey, mind selling me that coffee mug?" I say, "Sure, 3 dollars", and we both have full free will to accept, amend, or reject the trade.
This is a pretty good thing. Imagine a world in which I had to also add 8% tax, fill out a form and receipt, and make sure the cup passed some standard regulation before offer of sale.
Now does a completely free market scale as you introduce more people? Of COURSE not. But when we can keep aspects of free markets where possible, it makes trade more manageable for the seller. Since its less work to sell, less time and effort is needed to do business, thus increasing profits.
ssu August 24, 2021 at 13:57 #583845
Quoting Xtrix
Some of the poorest are also mixed economies. Why? Because nearly every economy in the world is mixed -- from China to India, to Japan and New Zealand, to Canada and Belize.

Then perhaps it's better to make a more specific questions. Let's look at markets. They can either function well or not so well in an economy. And there can be a plethora of reasons why it is so. Is the market controlled by a monopoly or by monopolistic competition. Are there functioning institutions or not? Are there logistical problems? Who are the suppliers and how do they perform? How integrated the market is to the outside? Are there subsidies or other forms of assistance, transfer payments being given or gotten? What are the political aspects of the market?

The question how much the government controls or supervises some market is only one limited question. It broadly starts from issues like just how well the society itself functions.
James Riley August 24, 2021 at 14:12 #583848
In looking at the title to this thread, and the words "free markets", it brought to mind something I was taught a long time ago as a little boy: Nothing is free.
NOS4A2 August 24, 2021 at 14:53 #583861
Reply to Xtrix

I never said that. Trade is good because it is one of the few means to acquire goods and services without resorting to immoral behavior.

The “wealthy get wealthier” is a play on a saying from Hanoverian England. “Trickle-down economics” is a democrat sneer from the 80’s. “Market fundamentalism” is a neologism from the 90’s. Your sloganeering is quite diverse.

Reply to tim wood

Now that's progress! Another couple of years of therapy and maybe you can go outside. Btw, can you describe your last experience in or with a free market - or any such experience?


I’ve never experienced the free market.

Pretend that current conditions are such that economies are a mixture of state intervention and private trade. You don’t like the current conditions, so you’d like to see it go in a different direction. Which direction would you like to see it go?
Deleted User August 24, 2021 at 18:56 #583940
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Mikie August 24, 2021 at 19:25 #583956
Quoting frank
I think theyre lauded for their self regulation.


2008, for example. Self regulation did wonders there.

Quoting tim wood
Btw, can you describe your last experience in or with a free market - or any such experience?


There are no free markets in the modern world. So don't hold your breath.

Quoting ssu
Then perhaps it's better to make a more specific questions.


Markets are another word for transactions between people. There's nothing wrong with trade. My problem is with free market fantasies, and the very idea that markets are something to be worshipped. They should be one small part of a society, and nothing more.

Markets are elevated to the point of holiness by a merchant mentality, where everything is about transactions, monetary value, and profits. I think we can aspire to more than that.

Quoting NOS4A2
I never said that.


Said what?

There is a quote feature.



frank August 24, 2021 at 20:45 #583989
Quoting Xtrix
2008, for example. Self regulation did wonders there.


So that entirely refutes the argument?

Socialism doesn't work because USSR. Zing.
Maw August 24, 2021 at 23:35 #584072
Free markets are vital so when I go to Walgreens to pick up toothpaste I am confronted with 60+ options
Mikie August 25, 2021 at 01:40 #584107
Reply to Maw

And “free to choose.”

Quoting frank
So that entirely refutes the argument?


Yes. They’re not lauded for their self regulation, as was your claim. When an industry is deregulated, you see what happens over and over again. The financial sector is an obvious example, but there are plenty of others.

But I’m talking about the real world, not about a hypothetical village somewhere. So there’s that defect, I suppose.
Manuel August 25, 2021 at 01:47 #584112
Neither really.

But I don't think you can have a large society without some degree of planning - how central it should be, is hard to say. We probably want less central planning than more of it, as a rule, but I think one can make a case for exceptions.

As for markets. Well what is a market? It's spoken of frequently, but it's not clear to me what they are. Nevertheless, I think they have a place in society. Preferably a much smaller one than what they currently have. But I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with having a market in a society.

It's a bit too abstract to say much that doesn't already involve presuppositions and ideological baggage, which we all have.
Mikie August 25, 2021 at 03:30 #584127
https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind-the-florida-condo-collapse-rampant-corner-cutting-11629816205?mod=mhp

Cutting corners to save money and thus increase profits. Another great example of unregulated capitalism.
ssu August 25, 2021 at 05:50 #584173
Quoting Xtrix
My problem is with free market fantasies, and the very idea that markets are something to be worshipped. They should be one small part of a society, and nothing more.

Markets are elevated to the point of holiness by a merchant mentality, where everything is about transactions, monetary value, and profits. I think we can aspire to more than that.

When anything becomes to be worshipped, just ignore the worship and the worshippers. What you are describing is when it has become an ideology, a pseudo religious mantra. Then it's just basically a religious sermon, a declaration of faith, what these people preach. Hardly worth listening, because these people aren't open to discussion or any new ideas.

And it's a kneejerk response usually to suggestions of supervision of market participants or simply about upholding existing laws. Have you actually noticed that the most vociferous defense of the free market is given as a response to defend basically either a monopoly or a tight oligopoly situation?

Comes to mind what an economic historian who had written the history of British Petroleum (BP) remarked: when BP is doing good and the UK government thinks about taking more profits or doing something other with the company, the company reminds of it being an independent corporation. When BP is in a tight spot, let's say a possible take over bid is looming, the company reminds the government who how strategically important it is to the UK and it's government.
frank August 25, 2021 at 13:29 #584381
Quoting Xtrix
But I’m talking about the real world, not about a hypothetical village somewhere. So there’s that defect, I suppose.


Markets have been the real world since the end of the Bronze Age. I don't think you're taking a particularly serious approach to your own question.
Mikie August 25, 2021 at 19:13 #584569
Quoting ssu
When anything becomes to be worshipped, just ignore the worship and the worshippers.


I'd love to, if not for the fact that they run the world -- and that's not an exaggeration. This dogma (really more akin to a religion) is espoused by corporate and political leaders to this day. The dogma says that markets know best, that they should not be interfered with by the pesky state, that anything negative in history can be reduced to state interference, and so on. It's all very self-serving, especially when a "market" has been very good to you.

Of course this is never admitted. Instead we're given lectures about how "government is the problem." The government is somewhat democratic. So where does the solution come from?Business. Naturally we're supposed to hear "mom and pop stores" and "the middle class" when this is stated, but it's not that -- it's big business, and that means (in today's world) multinational corporations.

Quoting ssu
Hardly worth listening, because these people aren't open to discussion or any new ideas.


What other options do we have? Revolution? I'm all for that. But since it's not happening, we're left only with rational discourse -- and that's probably for the best anyway, given the imbalance of military power.

Quoting ssu
Have you actually noticed that the most vociferous defense of the free market is given as a response to defend basically either a monopoly or a tight oligopoly situation?


Yes.

Quoting ssu
Comes to mind what an economic historian who had written the history of British Petroleum (BP) remarked: when BP is doing good and the UK government thinks about taking more profits or doing something other with the company, the company reminds of it being an independent corporation. When BP is in a tight spot, let's say a possible take over bid is looming, the company reminds the government who how strategically important it is to the UK and it's government.


An important point, yes. Reminds me of Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, etc. But also Exxon, Chevron, etc. All want a strong welfare state -- for their interests.


Mikie August 25, 2021 at 19:14 #584570
Quoting frank
Markets have been the real world since the end of the Bronze Age.


I have not once argued that markets are not part of the real world.

"Free markets," like those that "self-regulate," are fantasies. There is no invisible hand.

bert1 August 25, 2021 at 19:27 #584579
Quoting litewave
Since then most of the world has realized that you need a vehicle that can turn both left and right.


I think with a grid system, you can get anywhere on the grid just making left turns, as long as there are no dead ends. Could be wrong.
ssu August 25, 2021 at 19:39 #584582
Quoting Xtrix
I'd love to, if not for the fact that they run the world -- and that's not an exaggeration. This dogma (really more akin to a religion) is espoused by corporate and political leaders to this day. The dogma says that markets know best, that they should not be interfered with by the pesky state, that anything negative in history can be reduced to state interference, and so on. It's all very self-serving, especially when a "market" has been very good to you.

One should remember that a lot of this public discourse is what in the old days is called propaganda. Or jargon, lithurgy. Intended for some target audience for some reason.

Let me give you another example,

When there still was the Soviet Union, Finnish politicians and businessmen were quite apt in speaking "the lithurgy", the politically correct way to speak publicly (or to the Soviets, how to speak with any westerner) by allways praising the brotherhood of the nations, noting always the Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance between Finland and Soviet Union and so on... This made the discourse totally confusing to an outsider, but it was of the uttermost importance when talking to Soviets! If you know anyone who has lived behind the Iron Curtain, they will remember it quite well. Now it's hilarious.

And I think this is happening here too now ...when people speak publicly, on the record. Have them speak privately and you can see they usually are totally aware of the problems and call them by their actual name.
Albero August 25, 2021 at 19:47 #584584
Reply to Xtrix

What we have suffered under since the 70s is free market fundamentalism. Ideas like the "efficient market hypothesis," and things to that effect. All of it has lead to exactly the facts we see around us: huge income inequality, stagnant real wages, loss of unions, more precarious work, gib economies, corporate consolidation, stock buybacks, shadow banking, government bailouts, etc.


You’re absolutely right that this is a gigantic problem, but I feel like the left is currently going through a dilemma on how to address it. A Bernie Sanders style social democracy would solve a lot of this and is way better than the neoliberal bullshit we’re dealing with now, but is it sustainable? F*ck no if you ask me (and I’m sure you probably know why) but is revolution going to happen any time soon? Also no. I’m interested in hearing some more pragmatic solutions and your thoughts on this. You might disagree and I hate to say it, but I think voting in FDR style democrats is merely a compromise the capitalist class is more than happen to welcome for a few decades before chipping away it again
ssu August 25, 2021 at 19:56 #584590
Quoting Albero
A Bernie Sanders style social democracy would solve a lot of this and is way better than the neoliberal bullshit we’re dealing with now, but is it sustainable? F*ck no if you ask me (and I’m sure you probably know why) but is revolution going to happen any time soon? Also no. I’m interested in hearing some more pragmatic solutions and your thoughts on this.

When Norway, lead typically by social democrats and having a huge wealth from oil revenues, doesn't spend as much money as the US does in health care per capita, you know there is a problem. And everybody else spends less than the US and Norway.

I think for a rich country as the US the Bernie Sanders style health care is quite sustainable. As long as you keep the private sector as competitive as it is now and take care of your financial system. The secret to social democracy is to keep the cash cow in good health! And not to shoot the cow (like the communists would do).
Cheshire August 25, 2021 at 22:11 #584677
Quoting Xtrix
The real question is: What's so great about "markets" to being with?

Like democracy, it relies on the assumption we are flawed. Democracy limits harm through inefficiency and the free market functions on people serving their own interest above others. The free market doesn't describe a value for society; I think that's where things take a turn. It is a system of exchange that relies on humans to be selfish when they want something. It's organic and works with the least proud aspects of human nature. Central planning isn't a thing; too many people doing too many things. Trying to organize a forest.
litewave August 26, 2021 at 19:09 #585083
In the future, central regulation of economy will increase because of automation, biotechnologies and climate change. More income will need to be redistributed from those who own sophisticated/AI machines to those who lost their jobs from automation so that the unemployed can live a decent life or retrain for new jobs if possible; or some of that machinery will be owned by the state, which will distribute the profits to the population. Biotechnologies will need to be regulated, similarly to healthcare, so that people have fair access to technological enhancements of their bodies and minds to prevent the emergence of a class of biologically inferior humans, or at least care is provided for those for whom such enhancements are not (yet) available. Climate change is already forcing governments to provide support for transition to technologies with less greenhouse gas emissions.

Such collective actions are necessary because the alternative would be social unrest and wars.
Mikie August 26, 2021 at 19:48 #585099
Quoting ssu
And I think this is happening here too now ...when people speak publicly, on the record. Have them speak privately and you can see they usually are totally aware of the problems and call them by their actual name.


Yes, which is interesting. Unlike others on the forum and in media generally, who are reasonably skeptical about the level of public understanding, I think that the large majority of Americans fundamentally agree with each other that something is wrong. That's in spite of the propaganda that says everything is great -- like that the economy is great because the stock indexes have hit records.

The anger is not articulated well, but it's right under the surface because they live it every day. They sense something is wrong with this world and would like to see it changed. It's not envy, it's not entitlement. It's a sense of fairness in a world where the rules aren't at all fair. But who or what is to blame?

Unfortunately, when it comes to that question, many take out their unhappiness on immigrants, or "welfare queens," or the "inner cities," or China, or the liberal elite, or "big government," or whatever else you can imagine. That's where the propaganda you mentioned is very effective and comes in very handy for those with power, because the anger then gets diverted to everything but the source, or else distracted by superficialities of life, like fashionable consumption or pop culture.

Quoting Albero
A Bernie Sanders style social democracy would solve a lot of this and is way better than the neoliberal bullshit we’re dealing with now, but is it sustainable? F*ck no if you ask me (and I’m sure you probably know why)


Quoting Albero
I’m interested in hearing some more pragmatic solutions and your thoughts on this. You might disagree and I hate to say it, but I think voting in FDR style democrats is merely a compromise the capitalist class is more than hap[py] to welcome for a few decades before chipping away it again


I'm not sure what you mean by "sustainable." Fiscally sustainable, or in general?

If the latter, I agree -- a return to the New Deal era, which is all that Bernie is advocating really (although he's portrayed as the left of the left; in reality, on the world stage he's a moderate), is just setting us up for another swing to the right in 20 or 30 years.

But that's if we as people don't push any farther. I think if we ever have anything like the New Deal again, and so return to something like the 50s and 60s, where there was less wealth inequality, the American public has to be much more organized and push much harder. But for what? That's part of your question.

Pragmatic solutions should be thought of as short-term and long-term. I think it's important to have a long-term vision, as it informs the short-term decisions. But we don't want to be overly rigid, because we have no clue as to what the future brings.

In the short term, short of a revolution we're not getting rid of state-capitalism or private ownership, so Bernie's proposals are very good ones. I think strengthening unions is important, higher taxes, more regulations, and new legislation are important -- especially concerning things like stock buybacks, campaign contributions, etc. All that will be difficult enough. But then there are other solutions: encouraging worker co-ops is a huge move that could be made. Short of strong unions and worker co-ops is another option: worker representation on the boards of directors and in higher management.

In the long term, I think Parecon is a good model. There are historical examples of other modes of organization as well. The push should ultimately be a more anarchist society, where people control their lives, in politics but more importantly (and often simply overlooked as impossible) in the workplace as well. Not necessarily majoritarian democracy, a classless society, total equality, or anything like that, but simply more participation and equity.

My other thread about the co-op model gets into examples of this in terms of the workplace.

I focus more on economic matters because I think that's where most of the power comes from, whether we like it or not. I wish it were the government, because that's slightly easier to change. In business, there's not even the profession of democracy or fairness -- if it's private, they can do what they want.

Even people of the right are complaining about this regarding mask and vaccine mandates, and what they view as censorship on Twitter and Facebook. I think their rationale is absurd, but the general sentiment is correct: the private sector, major corporations, have too much power. (These are the same people totally fine with Trump authoritarianism and private businesses being allowed to discriminate against gays, but I digress.)


Mikie August 26, 2021 at 19:55 #585102
Quoting Cheshire
t is a system of exchange that relies on humans to be selfish when they want something.


But this is a very narrow view of human beings. All you have to do is look around, and you see cooperation, solidarity, empathy, concern for strangers, etc. I agree with Nietzsche about overvaluing "pity" and compassion, and even Ayn Rand in terms of Christian-like altruism, but that's certainly not the problem these days. If anything, we could use a higher dose of that. We've gone way too far the other direction. The fundamental principle being followed the last 40 years has essentially been "greed is good," similar to Adam Smith's "vile maxim." We see how that's turned out.

We could just as easily say "part of human nature is love and concern for others" -- and that'd be true as well. Just look at families and friends. The picture upon which modern ideas of the "free market" rests is the assumption that human beings are sociopaths, and that the greatest goal in life is the accumulation of wealth. It's anti-social. Look closely at the assumptions, and you'll eventually arrive at this idea. Like I said, it's very narrow -- and fairly sick. A symptom of decadence.

A more pro-social, healthier view of human beings should be assumed before we decide how to organize a society, its government and its economy. Perhaps going back and reading Plato, Aristotle, and even Adam Smith is a good idea.


James Riley August 26, 2021 at 20:01 #585107
Quoting Xtrix
I think that the large majority of Americans fundamentally agree with each other that something is wrong.


I think the gut knows that the growth model is not sustainable, and the ability to keep bailing ourselves out is losing steam. When I say the "gut", I mean an "intuitive sense", not necessarily articulated the way I just did.

It's like the end of a kegger. There's still a lot of half-empty cups of beer laying around if you really want a drink. And the cool kids over in the corner still have wine and a secret stash of bottled beer. But the song is skipping, the sun's coming up, the neighbors dog is barking, that "ten" laying on the floor over there is looking more like a "three" and, well, it's just time to go home. It was fun, the open conspiracy of "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke" has worn out it's welcome. The joke is over. We need some sleep, in our own bed. Tomorrow is a work day.
ssu August 26, 2021 at 20:01 #585108
Quoting Xtrix
The anger is not articulated well, but it's right under the surface because they live it every day. They sense something is wrong with this world and would like to see it changed. It's not envy, it's not entitlement. It's a sense of fairness in a world where the rules aren't at all fair. But who or what is to blame?

You can see that obviously there is this sense of things not being right. There is this underlying anger in the country that can sometime erupt. The question is how it is vented out and by whom. Trump was basically this middle finger from part of the voters. Obama was someone that other people pinned their hopes. I remember when my friend had visited the US just when Obama was first elected, there was a lot of hopeful thinking. Yet unfortunately, this isn't something that just a President can change.
Mikie August 26, 2021 at 20:16 #585119
Quoting ssu
I remember when my friend had visited the US just when Obama was first elected, there was a lot of hopeful thinking. Yet unfortunately, this isn't something that just a President can change.


I keep coming back again and again to a simple goal: organization. Getting involved, on the local level, with anyone willing to listen and join in, or joining in with something already happening -- and there are some things happening here and there. But not particularly well, and not particularly prevalent or effective. Still, it's worth trying.

I liken it to all to someone complaining about how boring everyone around them is, how uninteresting their lives and conversations, etc., and yet never offering anything themselves, never speaking out, never leading discussions, etc. It's similar to "political hobbyism."

I think the emphasis on individualism needs to go out and being pro-social needs to come into vogue. There's no other way. If we continue pinning our hopes to the Obamas or Bidens or even Bernies, we're toast. That's limiting yourself to a vote, like restricting yourself to asking for a raise or quitting. When you think these are the only options, then you're both disarming yourself and limiting your circle of influence to your living room. That guarantees nothing changes.

To hell with these political leaders and these corporations.



unenlightened August 26, 2021 at 20:18 #585121
Those of us who can remember their early childhood, remember being helpless. The typical family is not run as a market, because infants have nothing to sell but their full diapers, and are dependent on the government (aka parents) for their survival. The family is more communist than capitalist in its internal relations; from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs. It simply would not work if the newcomers to the family had to earn their keep from the beginning.

Family, tribe, nation, the idea of loyalty and mutuality is widened, and it is only with "others" that one begins to trade and thus invent 'the market'. the market is a way of dealing with folk one does not care about.
ssu August 26, 2021 at 20:20 #585122
Quoting Xtrix
I keep coming back again and again to a simple goal: organization. Getting involved, on the local level, with anyone willing to listen and join in, or joining in with something already happening -- and there are some things happening here and there. But not particularly well, and not particularly prevalent or effective. Still, it's worth trying.

Ummm.. should we call this representative democracy and forming new political parties?

Don't think you are bound by law to have just two. Even if they masquerade their "primaries" as part of the system, they are just two dominating parties and there is only one elections.
Cheshire August 26, 2021 at 20:36 #585136
Quoting Xtrix
I more pro-social, healthier view of human beings should be assumed before we decide how to organize a society, its government and its economy.

You quoted me out of context; ignoring the sentence directly following this one spoke to your entire complaint above. Do you have anything honest to say?
litewave August 26, 2021 at 21:51 #585172
Quoting unenlightened
The family is more communist than capitalist in its internal relations; from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.


Right, and it works, but it's not easy to widen the circle of such love and compassion. The good news is, as Steven Pinker has documented, that human history seems to move in the direction of less violence. In the long term, mankind is getting more integrated and cooperative. Common religion, ideology or nationalism can help to some degree. Social mechanisms like laws, education, trade and workplace force us to be cooperative and considerate toward strangers, and we gradually internalize these attitudes. Mental capacity and flexibility seem to be important too, to be able to understand different people and interact with them fruitfully. The more people develop these traits the more they will be able to function like a family in larger groups.
frank August 26, 2021 at 22:07 #585183
..

Quoting unenlightened
the market is a way of dealing with folk one does not care about.


We're all descended from people who turned to markets to meet the needs of communities when there was no Fatherland to organize things.

Markets have been incredibly important to humanity for thousands of years. We just live in a time where their power is outsized.
Mikie August 27, 2021 at 00:54 #585269
Reply to unenlightened

Good point.

Quoting Cheshire
ignoring the sentence directly following this one spoke to your entire complaint above.


It didn't, and you were not quoted out of context. Nor am I accusing you of taking this position. On the contrary, I think it's accurate. Those who tacitly hold this view of human beings are simply missing the bigger picture.

Cheshire August 27, 2021 at 01:21 #585278
Reply to Xtrix The one preceding it I meant to say. I was misrepresented by any measure. How about don't quote me.
Mikie August 27, 2021 at 01:41 #585292
Quoting Cheshire
How about don't quote me.


Don't want to be quoted, don't post.
Cheshire August 27, 2021 at 03:56 #585314
Quoting Xtrix
Redacted....Don't want to be quoted, don't post. Save your stupidity for elsewhere.


You know it's interesting how people only seem to get upset when you accuse them of something they are guilty of.....Why not let whoever you are ranting at off the hook and let whatever punch line you are setting up hit the floor like the sorry sack of manure it surely resembles.
Mikie August 27, 2021 at 13:19 #585452
Quoting Cheshire
You know it's interesting how people only seem to get upset when you accuse them of something they are guilty of....


You quoted me out of context. Please don't quote me again.
Cheshire August 28, 2021 at 04:47 #585805
Reply to Xtrix You mean delete the record of narcissistic rage you decided to alter. I might if you have a good idea by the end of the thread. Maybe, read what others said and aggregate some knowledge. Proceed.
BC August 28, 2021 at 05:30 #585810
The important issue isn't whether planning is centralized or scattered, it is whether planning for the short, medium, and long run is underway. In many cases, it appears to be quite inadequate. it isn't just national governments that too often fail at this: Corporations, individuals, small farmers, professionals, small tradesmen--all sorts.

Just one small example: A developer wants to build 50 houses. The local city/county wants the tax revenue. How does it happen that the developer, local government, and others do not notice that the land for these 50 houses is a flood plain? Building houses on flood. plains isn't planning -- it's gambling. People, insurance companies, taxpayers -- all sorts -- are losing this gamble too often.

Smart companies build sufficient warehouse capacity BEFORE they build out their wholesale or retail operation. Manufacturers build sufficient factory capacity before they attempt to go into new markets.

Amazon seems to do reasonably good medium range planning (2 decades out), which has enabled them to keep up with booming demand for home delivery. Target, surprisingly, seems to have had problems with its supply chain for several years. Bad planning, maybe.

I don't think switching to electric autos (140 million of them in the us alone) is a good idea, but at least there is talk of building out a coast-to-coast charging system, which will certainly be needed when we roll out more of the electric fleet.

On the other hand, there are all sorts of problems with building out a non-fossil fuel electric grid, and I don't see a lot of planning for that taking place. Mostly there seems to be a lot of dithering. But long range dithering doesn't count as long range planning.
Mikie August 28, 2021 at 12:57 #585916
Reply to Cheshire

Too big of an idiot, I see. That’s fine. Save your simplistic comments for elsewhere.

Quoting Bitter Crank
I don't think switching to electric autos (140 million of them in the us alone) is a good idea,


Why?

Cheshire August 28, 2021 at 17:56 #585986
Reply to Bitter Crank In this case Xlaxtric is referring to the central planning of economies. Seizing the heights of industry and so forth. That thing that no one tries to do anymore because it gets supplemented with an untaxable 50% black market; or everyone starves.

Assorted tantrums for reference only: Quoting Xtrix
Too big of an idiot, I see. That’s fine. Save your simplistic comments for elsewhere.
BC August 28, 2021 at 18:41 #585995
Quoting Xtrix
Why?


Without 100% electricity sourced from wind, solar, nuclear, and hydro, electric vehicles is business as usual.

There are about a billion cars on the world's roads. If we were serious about global warming, we would not be devising plans to replace 1 billion internal combustion autos with electric ones. Aside from the energy to power these vehicles, there is an extraordinarily large energy requirement to recycle 1b old and manufacture 1 billion new vehicles. We do not have a global electric grid free of CO2 and methane emissions to power a billion cars (and more trucks, trains, planes, etc.)

We require transportation, BUT the choice is clear: either cars for all and failure at controlling global warming, or greatly reduced resource consumption and possible success at controlling rising CO2 levels (plus methane, etc.) and steady heating.

The existing global economic model is flat out unsustainable. We are failing at limiting global warming, which isn't just an inconvenience, it will eventually be an existential threat.

That's why.
BC August 28, 2021 at 18:52 #586001
Quoting Xtrix
To hell with these political leaders and these corporations.


Fine by me. The efforts of "these political leaders and these corporations" has been directed for many decades toward neutralizing the masses as a political force capable of pursuing their own interests.

That is why the best they can come up with for plans to save the planet is to convert 1 billion internal combustion engines to 1 billion electric motors -- overlooking the massive carbon output that will require.

Under capitalism, planning must be directed toward sustaining capitalism as the dominant paradigm.
Mikie August 28, 2021 at 20:16 #586025
Quoting Bitter Crank
Without 100% electricity sourced from wind, solar, nuclear, and hydro, electric vehicles is business as usual.


Sure, but that doesn't happen overnight. I think it's good to transition to that, get the infrastructure up, and then work on sourcing electricity only from renewables. If we don't start getting that going, nothing will happen.

I'd rather there be a push for public transportation, but if that "can't" happen for political reasons, this is the only way I can see of transitioning.

Quoting Bitter Crank
We are failing at limiting global warming, which isn't just an inconvenience, it will eventually be an existential threat.


Agreed.
BC August 28, 2021 at 21:35 #586035
Reply to Xtrix Let me beat this probably dead horse a little longer.

At the rate the planet is warming, there probably won't be enough time left to implement much of the electrification plan. Having warmed up, it will take a very long time for the oceans to cool back down. Having warmed up, it will take an ice age to refreeze the tundra (which is busy leaking methane).

The kind of life-way that will result from global warming -- a life-way we are definitely going to find very unsatisfactory -- is not being planned for as a likelihood--nowhere, really, not just in the US. The key piece of an appropriate long-range planning process is the steady, continuous, and permanent rollback of consumption to 1880 -1900 levels and content.

Such a 120-140 year roll-back would be no sort of dark ages. People used to not consume as much non-food stuff as they have, ever since the 1920s. Less clothing, less household furnishing, less heating, less cooling, no cars, no planes. People walked, used public transit, or bicycled. Few people owned horses to just to ride around on. For longer trips, inter-city trolleys and trains were used.

Houses built for the working classes did not have huge walk-in closets and 8 drawer dressers, shoe racks, and so on for clothing. Even up to the 1950s many people bathed once or twice a week (not twice a day as some do now).

As long as we continue to expect increases in GDP every year and a "rising standard of living" whatever that means, no significant slowing or reduction in greenhouse gases is going to happen.
frank August 29, 2021 at 00:27 #586084
Quoting Bitter Crank
The kind of life-way that will result from global warming -- a life-way we are definitely going to find very unsatisfactory -


The people who adapt to it will think it's cool as shit. They'll be heartbroken when it cools down again. The worst part of the temperature spike will last about 1000 years, then it will be mostly back to normal in 10,000 years

Volatility is the problem, not so much the heat itself.
BC August 29, 2021 at 00:45 #586089
Reply to frank Maybe so.

Over the last 400,000 years, we can assume that humans lived in some fairly difficult conditions, and those that were not dying in agony probably liked their lives well enough. That's true right now. Not dying in agony? Hey, it's time to party! So sure, no doubt there will be people on the Arctic Riviera who will think life is happiness indeed.

I've always assumed that humans, along with some other animals, insects, plants, fungi, bacteria, and viruses would make it through the thermo-culling event. And they will likely breed their way back to the global nuisance we have become to ourselves.

If things go badly, billions will not survive. The Arctic Rivera, Tierra del Fuego resort and casino, and the settlements on various mountains here and there, won't offer refuge for all that many people. So... exit stage left, right, front, and back.

frank August 29, 2021 at 00:54 #586092
Reply to Bitter Crank
There will be some gruesome times, I'm sure, but stress is fuel for creativity, as Harry Lime pointed out. Who knows what we'll come up with?