You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Quantum Zeno Effect & God

TheMadFool August 07, 2021 at 16:44 3675 views 14 comments
Quantum Zeno Effect

[quote=Wikipedia]The quantum Zeno effect (also known as the Turing paradox) is a feature of quantum-mechanical systems allowing a particle's time evolution to be arrested by measuring it frequently enough with respect to some chosen measurement setting.

Sometimes this effect is interpreted as "a system cannot change while you are watching it". One can "freeze" the evolution of the system by measuring it frequently enough in its known initial state. The meaning of the term has since expanded, leading to a more technical definition, in which time evolution can be suppressed not only by measurement: the quantum Zeno effect is the suppression of unitary time evolution in quantum systems provided by a variety of sources: measurement, interactions with the environment, stochastic fields, among other factor[/quote]

The basic idea seems to be certain quantum systems can be frozen if observed in a certain way i.e. the system will fail to evolve. Yet, such systems are evolving which implies NO ONE IS WATCHING!

If God did exist, he would be observing every single particle in this universe and that would have led to the Quantum Zeno Effect but since quantum systems do evolve, GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

Comments (14)

javi2541997 August 07, 2021 at 16:57 #576762
Reply to TheMadFool

Hats off to this simple but formidable argument of atheism :up: I never knew about Quantum Zero Effect until today.
Philosophim August 07, 2021 at 22:19 #576954
Quoting TheMadFool
The basic idea seems to be certain quantum systems can be frozen if observed in a certain way i.e. the system will fail to evolve. Yet, such systems are evolving which implies NO ONE IS WATCHING!

If God did exist, he would be observing every single particle in this universe and that would have led to the Quantum Zeno Effect but since quantum systems do evolve, GOD DOES NOT EXIST!


My understanding of quantum mechanics is its not an observer that causes outcomes, its active measurement. All measurement at that level requires bouncing particles off of other particles. Our instruments that we use to measure are not effective enough to not affect the thing we are measuring. If you bounce a ping pong ball off a bowling ball, the bowling ball won't be very affected. But bounce a bowling ball off of a ping pong ball, and the ping pong ball is affected greatly.

But if I simply use my eyeballs to look at quantum realities around me, you'll notice that I'm not affecting the outcome in the slightest. When introducing a fantastical being such as God, we can also posit that God is able to know what is happening on a quantum level without altering the outcome of that quantum pathing. After all, God is not limited by out instrumentation.
180 Proof August 08, 2021 at 00:46 #577082
jgill August 08, 2021 at 00:52 #577093
Quoting Philosophim
My understanding of quantum mechanics is its not an observer that causes outcomes, its active measurement


Me too. Good post.
Wayfarer August 08, 2021 at 01:01 #577106
Quoting Philosophim
All measurement at that level requires bouncing particles off of other particles. Our instruments that we use to measure are not effective enough to not affect the thing we are measuring. If you bounce a ping pong ball off a bowling ball, the bowling ball won't be very affected. But bounce a bowling ball off of a ping pong ball, and the ping pong ball is affected greatly.



[quote= "Brian Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos; https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yZujlUD1oAAC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PP1&dq=brian%20greene%20fabric%20cosmos&pg=PT135#v=onepage&q&f=false"]The explanation of uncertainty as arising through the unavoidable disturbance caused by the measurement process has provided physicists with a useful intuitive guide as well as a powerful explanatory framework in certain specific situations. However, it can also be misleading. It may give the impression that uncertainty arises only when we lumbering experimenters meddle with things. This is not true. Uncertainty is built into the wave structure of quantum mechanics and exists whether or not we carry out some clumsy measurement.[/quote]
jgill August 08, 2021 at 03:38 #577194
From Wikipedia:

Calculations of quantum decoherence show that when a quantum system interacts with the environment, the superpositions apparently reduce to mixtures of classical alternatives.


Where does physics end and math begin? Lots of unknowns here.
Philosophim August 08, 2021 at 04:08 #577210
Quoting Brian Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos
However, it can also be misleading. It may give the impression that uncertainty arises only when we lumbering experimenters meddle with things. This is not true. Uncertainty is built into the wave structure of quantum mechanics and exists whether or not we carry out some clumsy measurement.


A great addition.
TheMadFool August 08, 2021 at 05:34 #577234
Quoting Philosophim
My understanding of quantum mechanics is its not an observer that causes outcomes, its active measurement.


If God is not engaging in "...active measurement" at the quantum level, God isn't omniscient.

Quoting Philosophim
we can also posit that God is able to know what is happening on a quantum level without altering the outcome of that quantum pathing


God's omnipotence saves the day! It appears that we can't argue against omnipotence. Gives a whole new meaning to argumentum ad verecundium and argumentum ad baculum
prothero August 08, 2021 at 23:27 #577596
The all knowing all seeing invisible god once again escapes detection and destruction. It seems unlikely the argument will convince.
hume August 09, 2021 at 01:13 #577658
My understanding is that it’s not the measurement. It’s misleading. It’s the interaction. When particle interacts with other particle or environment then superposition is reduced to decoherence and particle takes specific state with certain value of spin and position. Since measurement is a form of interaction, it seems to is as if measurement (or observation) caused it.

Due to cosmic microwave background throughout the universe we have radiation particles everywhere which interact with quantum systems (particles, objects, matter that ends up making up our stars, planets, every thing) so even when there is no observer or measurement, the interaction is continuously happening.
TheMadFool August 09, 2021 at 02:12 #577692
Quoting hume
My understanding is that it’s not the measurement. It’s misleading. It’s the interaction. When particle interacts with other particle or environment then superposition is reduced to decoherence and particle takes specific state with certain value of spin and position. Since measurement is a form of interaction, it seems to is as if measurement (or observation) caused it.

Due to cosmic microwave background throughout the universe we have radiation particles everywhere which interact with quantum systems (particles, objects, matter that ends up making up our stars, planets, every thing) so even when there is no observer or measurement, the interaction is continuously happening.


If what you say is correct and all that's needed are interactions, all quantum systems should be in the grips of the Quantum Zeno effect. I don't think that's correct.
hume August 09, 2021 at 03:29 #577718
It will not be in the grips of zeno effect because zeno effect is produced under certain conditions which are not the abundant conditions in nature.
TheMadFool August 09, 2021 at 04:04 #577734
Quoting hume
It will not be in the grips of zeno effect because zeno effect is produced under certain conditions which are not the abundant conditions in nature


Quoting hume
Due to cosmic microwave background throughout the universe we have radiation particles everywhere which interact with quantum systems (particles, objects, matter that ends up making up our stars, planets, every thing) so even when there is no observer or measurement, the interaction is continuously happening.


:chin:
hume August 09, 2021 at 14:41 #577875
Zeno effect is produced under careful manipulated conditions by humans. People used the knowledge about quantum physics to create a situation where this effect manifests. The measurements are performed in a manner where they are not how they occur in nature. This can only possible through agency (humans). That’s why even though this effect is proven to exist, it doesn’t exist in nature on its own.

It’s like satellites don’t exist on their own in nature but yet our outer space is filled with them aiding in gps navigation among other things because we put them there.