Consideration and reciprocity as an objects to avoid violence in our modern Era.
I recently debated with @Amity how important is to bring up on the table the serious issue of how violent our society is becoming. There are a lot of sad news about riots and fights where turns out the people involved are young (between 17 or 24 years old. For example: Luiz case Spain.
Probably you can call me a dreamer, but I guess Chinese and Asian philosophy could fit in these issues. Check out this analect from Confucius: Isn't it shù?" , "What you do not want yourself," , "Don't do to others." (XV:23/24)
consideration" or "reciprocity": What you don't want yourself, don't do to others. This is the Golden Rule with negatives, and so sometimes is called the "Silver Rule." This version is more in the right spirit of morality, which is to prohibit harmful and unjust actions or violations moral autonomy.
Also, check out Buddhism: "Practice according to the Precepts accumulated moral Merit, and then, with sufficient Merit, Enlightenment would lead one to Nirvâ?a" (???????) The basics teachings of Buddhism.
We have to develop a better educational system and teach how bad the violence is. I feel we are living in an Era where people literally do not care about harm others. For this reason, it is time to focus on Ethics and provide more empathy along our relationships.
Probably you can call me a dreamer, but I guess Chinese and Asian philosophy could fit in these issues. Check out this analect from Confucius: Isn't it shù?" , "What you do not want yourself," , "Don't do to others." (XV:23/24)
consideration" or "reciprocity": What you don't want yourself, don't do to others. This is the Golden Rule with negatives, and so sometimes is called the "Silver Rule." This version is more in the right spirit of morality, which is to prohibit harmful and unjust actions or violations moral autonomy.
Also, check out Buddhism: "Practice according to the Precepts accumulated moral Merit, and then, with sufficient Merit, Enlightenment would lead one to Nirvâ?a" (???????) The basics teachings of Buddhism.
We have to develop a better educational system and teach how bad the violence is. I feel we are living in an Era where people literally do not care about harm others. For this reason, it is time to focus on Ethics and provide more empathy along our relationships.
Comments (61)
I've got nothing against Chinese or Indian philosophy but I think that historically Europe has developed its own philosophy.
For example, in Classical Greek and later Christian tradition there is the concept of "justice" or "righteousness", of always doing what it right for yourself and for others.
So, I tend to doubt that we need Buddhism or Confucianism to learn how to be civilized. Plus, India and China are not necessarily superior to the West in this respect.
My intention was not emphasize Asian philosophy over a Western one. Those were just examples of how we can develop ethics inside society and then probably we would get lower violence/hate rates.
Keep in mind that if we study closer the western philosophy we can be so technical that people who not cares about philosophy will end up misunderstood. I guess the key here is try to be the simplest to enter in the young’s minds (example, students between 15 and 18 years old)
It doesn’t matter at all the academic religion because this issue is for professionals of philosophy. I mean teaching the basic principles using both Asian and Western philosophy and I believe it can fit...
I remember in my school my philosophy teacher never told me anything about Tao Te Ching neither Confucius.
I feel like education can only get you so far... how effective would that be if after the relatively short period of education, you have to participate in a system that essentially incentivises you to get ahead at any cost? Kids are not that dumb, a lot of them intuitively sniff out ethical teachings that don't match up with the world.
I guess what I'm saying is that if the rest doesn't change with it, ethics education will allways be an uphill battle, at best. Then again, you have to start somewhere so...
Agree! Then, this is why we are failing as a civic society because the “system” teaches us how to be so destructive in our environment. The rule here is Homo homini lupus. We all met someone in our university or work who is literally a lone wolf who doesn’t care if he/she sacrifices you for anything.
This is why I think the issue goes further than just educational system (which obviously is an important pillar) but what if we try of restart our establishment? Sounds impossible but I think is better late than never. I don’t see the benefits of being selfish and violent in this contemporary Era. It is time to come backs to easier times where the duty was happiness.
For God's sake,
being a dreamer!
Quoting javi2541997
I know its very popular to think so but what evidence do you have that society is more violent or dangerous and getting more so?
Hatred is certainly better organised - we can thank social media for that one. But so what?
I would think that rather than teaching people that violence is bad, it might be better to teach/model the benefits of community and cooperation.
Quoting javi2541997
And how specifically would they help in the West?
Thank you so much! I have in mind many weird aspects about "changing the world" but I end up unmotivated due to how drastic and cruel the world can be.
Agree! With this teaching tool probably we would avoid selfish and dangerous people in the society. But please, I still defend we have to provide kids how bad is a toxic behavior along the classmates...
Quoting Tom Storm
I guess it can help in the West because it develops our paradigm. We can learn through Asian philosophy that there are other paths to grow up as a good person, or at least civic one.
Sometimes I feel most of the students do not understand about Greek or Roman culture. This is why we don't have many thinkers...
What about if we expand our paradigm getting involved in Taoism or Confucius? Probably can help a little bit.
______________________________________________
The Master said, "Acquired by unrighteousness,
wealth and rank are to me as a floating cloud."
Confucius, Analects XVII:15/16, translation after James Legge [1893], Arthur Waley [1938], and D.C. Lau [1979]
My problem with this is you haven't described just what it is in these philosophies that would be of use. What specific ideas would help and how? What is your evidence that these ideas make a difference?
To be honest I do not have any evidence is these ideas make a difference. It is just a belief. I only want to improve our educational system with the goal of avoiding violence so I thought Buddhism or Taoism would be a good starting point because most of the people who follow this paths tend to be pacific.
Probably, it could help, but I don't put it on practice yet. It is only a dream.
Tom, I think you could like this following page where it shows what (more or less) I want to get about: Prudence, Goodness and Wisdom.
Cruel? That means you're no longer a dreamer pal! Join the :broken: Dreams Club.
You have to see the shortcomings of such platitudes. A very raw person might actually prefer a bodily confrontation to endless discussions. The range of what is deemed socially acceptable is defined by the neccessary conditions for the reproduction of the ruling class.
Anything threatening those conditions gets suppressed by means of force far beyond a single persons abilities. Even democratic ideology tends to (falsely) recur to "quantitative justifications" (i.e. greater benefit for more people) when confronted with this.
Yes, the discussion started here:
Quoting javi2541997
Quoting Tom Storm
To focus on a specific group - there does seem to be evidence of a spike in teen killings.
Before we can even think about solutions to a problem, the causes need to be identified.
Quoting javi2541997
I think both children and adults know exactly how outrageous violence is. Victims and perpetrators alike.
When it comes to gangs involved in e.g. drug feuds and targeting pupils out of school, then the question is how to reach them and change behaviour. Why do gangs exist ?
This is not a new phenomenon - here's a history of Glasgow gangs:
It starts with a black and white photo of 'A gang fight on Tollcross Road, Parkhead in 1933'
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/history/history-glasgows-street-gangs-tongs-12252432
Recently:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/01/police-review-teen-killings-in-search-of-catalyst-for-spike-in-murders
Quoting Police review teen killings in search of catalyst for spike in murders
Quoting javi2541997
It will take more than that. Perhaps by looking at why the education system itself fails pupils.
Using punishment measures including exclusions and isolation booths for bad behaviour.
Quoting tes.com: a student take on why exclusions don't work
Punishment is violence in more ways than one. It's a 'vicious' circle.
So, how to turn the system into a 'virtuous' cycle ?
I doubt it can be done by teaching ethics. Depending.
Perhaps the teaching method counts as much as the content...geared to the needs/wants of the pupils.
Start with careful listening with respect for the individual rather than preaching or punishing.
Show rather than tell...
That's only the beginning. There is a widespread problem.
Psychopathic elites in power acting as role models.
Using derogatory and hate language and creating divisions. Reduction of services etc., etc.
I think that is one of the major problems in modern society, and it includes pop stars and social media influencers with psychological issues.
There seems to be little point in teaching ancient wisdom, eastern or western, when the dominant culture is dictated by violent hip-hop, and the prevalent gang culture inculcates ideals like knives, guns, drugs, violence and rape. Women and girls are no longer women and girls but "bitches" and "hos", and some have even started referring to themselves in those terms.
Partner violence in hip hop - Wikipedia
As usual, it started in run-down areas of American cities and it is spreading everywhere though less so in rural areas where traditional culture is still dominant. IMHO the solution seems to be not the introduction of more alien cultures but the restoration of traditional culture.
This a problem we have to face then. This is why I want to develop a criteria where probably ethics can lead us in a more pacific relationship. Despite the fact most of the people want confrontation, doesn't mean endless discussions are clueless or worthless. To be honest I defend if we develop more dialogues probably we would limit or avoid wars, riots, chaos, etc...
Agree! To be honest with you Amity, I never understood what a punishment in school actually means. When I was in school most of the teachers punished me without free hour because I was bad at maths. This created a trauma in numbers developing a low self-esteem on me in terms of mathematics. Sometimes I think they school failed on me because they did not want me as good math student at all.
I guess the key could be a class with zero punishment. If teachers start listening more to their students the tables could turn on. The ethics class should be prepared as a gift. Every classmate have to go to understand how to be a decent person. This is not depend on good grades or marks.
If the kids learn languages and maths since they are kids why don't teach them to some ethical values?
Thanks for sharing this article. Nevertheless, I disagree with your point that most of the people know how outrageous violence is. I feel like literally the young people love this issue. They are most of the time making riots and not respecting the authority at all... Covid is a good example in this context. Most of the people do not care at all. Instead of giving a good image as a young people they only make messes and chaos.
When I see or read a news where some young group kill another for no reason I feel how our education system is in a collapse. It is time to reinforce it.
Already joined :broken: :up: :rofl:
So you think that riots, war and chaos in themselves are "the problem"? I do not buy this for just one second. There have been to many of those who were legitimated by history.
OK. You don't think that young people know very well that violence is 'outrageous' ?
Really ?
When it is perpetrated against them in different ways ? School bullying, being ridiculed and physically attacked is just one of many instances they can experience it. The media is full of it. You think you are alone in seeing this - that you are somehow exceptional ?
As to being violent themselves - they don't necessarily 'love' it. They might even hate that they are involved in it. Being part of a gang so as to fit in and not be attacked.
It takes resources to end this. To improve unfair conditions.
Also, it can be a reaction to the various abuses suffered or frustration against the systems they are embedded in. Family, society, politics, economics; a sense of powerlessness and lack of freedom...the list goes on.
Quoting javi2541997
Anger is the issue. It may not manifest in riots but it is understandable, if not condoned, if they don't respect certain 'authority figures' and rebel. It is the only way their/our voices can be heard if politicians don't listen. But protests are now being criminalised * - anything against the government seen as violent and unpatriotic.
What good will prison sentences do ? It is a violence begetting violence.
*https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/19/environment-protest-being-criminalised-around-world-say-experts
Quoting The Guardian - Environmental activism being criminalised
Rebellion is in the air because the future is at stake.
Outrage caused by outrageous circumstances, local and global.
Quoting javi2541997
I disagree and think you are wrong to come to such a generalised conclusion.
People care. Even if they sometimes appear not to. All ages are concerned. There is heightened anxiety but also apathy. Cue the Broken Dreams Club:
Quoting TheMadFool
Certain groups of people who perhaps have more time and energy can shake us all out of complacency.
Also, they are armed with knowledge...from scientists.
Quoting The Guardian
It is not the same context... We live now in a democratic world. Probably in the most peaceful period humans ever lived by far...
Also, I do not mean about politics or revolutions. I am talking about violence without a solid base. Killing another person just because is funny or different from me... This is happening more than ever.
But what could such a "solid base of violence" be?
No. I don't think I am the only one since the moment I share the same importance of avoiding as you do. But yes, sometimes I feel I am alone in this context or probably how I overact in this iusse. Am I sounding paranoid? Probably...
Quoting Amity
It could be. I posted a generalised conclusion. Nevertheless I still defend that the porcentage of people not caring at all is big enough. Trust me. You can feel and see the violence and aggressive vocabulary everywhere. When you watch a football match and a random player calls to another an offensive word, everyone looks cheerful in it and it is disgusting as hell.
The masses are revolted and hesitated than ever. I guess we will not see a good pacifier leader as Muhammad Ghandi anymore...
For example:
If I live in a backwards country where I cannot even go to university, it is acceptable and understandable to be violent with the government because it is literally limiting all my rights as a person.
But, it is not the same if I use violence as a normal/regular practice or even just to have fun. If I am in a mass and then I kill you because you are different, this is totally insane and should not be allowed in our modern Era.
The problem here is that people looks like not care at all about the government but confronting with individuals just to calm their own frustrations.
Actually, killing (and eating) people because they were different or just for fun was widespread in Maoist China:
Guangxi Massacre - Wikipedia
So it seems that Confucius and Chinese philosophy was not much help ....
Dude, it helps... The problem here is that the people is not caring at all. The example you wrote above increases my arguments. It does not mater if we are in Asia or West. Guangxi massacre is another example as Holocaust. Society acting violent because the lack of ethics.
Warriors Of Peace! :chin: It's come to that, eh?
Dr. Sun Tzu, professor of polemology from the Red Planet claims that Earthlings were at one time so violent that their peace movments were carrying out an armed struggle, their motto being, si vis pacem fac bellum. :chin:
Quoting javi2541997
[quote=Sonia Kincaid]I'm gonna f**k your dreams until they wish they were your nightmares![/quote]
What I am saying is that Confucius and Chinese philosophy do not seem to have prevented Chinese people from killing and eating people for fun.
And if Confucius and Chinese philosophy have failed to promote ethical behavior in China, why should we expect them to do so in the West?
If violence and other unethical behavior in the West is a recent development, then it seems more sensible to return to the traditional Western values that have prevented this development until now.
Crime in China - Wikipedia
There is also widespread cruelty to animals, massive environmental pollution, etc.
Hmmm. Depends. A lot more death threats. Far fewer actual deaths.
It's a truism to say that people's bad behaviour is because of their (lack of good) ethics. But I agree, consideration and reciprocity should be fostered.
I think we need to look principally to the present problem and future solutions more than picking a past philosophy though. We need to understand what makes people antisocial. It's not any more inherent than what makes people social. My question recently was: can we have an egalitarian, reciprocal but delayed-return society? A good follow up to that would intersect with your thread: how do we build an egalitarian, reciprocal society starting from _where we are now_? Infrastructure and culture, not dead men. And, yes, education is a huge part of both, but I don't think brainwashing kids with a particular philosophy is warranted. Rather, look to what _promotes_ the already present capacity for altruism in children.
This is a good question indeed. It made me feel a feeling dilemma. If in China doesn’t work Taoism why I should believe it as a West citizen? It shook my head.
Despite the fact it could have their own debilities I still believe in Tao and Confucius as in Greek philosophy. As a globe with many paradigms, and then just probably the situation can change.
For example, what we are sharing both you and me is beautiful because we are debating different points of views without aggressive vocabulary. This is due to how we have a good development in philosophy and knowledge. Why not develop this practice as a normal issue?
I understand your point but I think Greek philosophy or Taoism is not old because their principles are everywhere and I guess we can grew our future up starting in this area. We should never forget these old theories
.Quoting Kenosha Kid
Probably but being antisocial not necessarily drive us on being violent or having aggressive attitude. To be honest with you, I consider myself as antisocial but this doesn’t cause on me have the feeling or ambition to fight against another one or being involved in a riot...
Why would you assume children do not already know?
Agreed, but that's no reason to indoctrinate children with them. (There may be better reasons to do just that.)
Quoting javi2541997
By social here, I mean empathetic, altruistic, egalitarian.
[quote=Confucius]Yes there's violence in China but we have fantastic roads.[/quote]
Because children tend to be innocent in these issues and complex aspects. Sometimes they are linving/making violence when they don't truly know what they are doing.
There are cases where children live domestic violence but they don't get the situation until they become older.
I promise I laughed :rofl: because my intention is not about indoctrinate them but just assure these ideas or principles are clearly taught in society because I feel they are like forgotten or something.
Yes! Exactly, because only in this way I guess it could be more understood (ethics and being a good citizen) in those young minds.
I am perceiving that Confucius or Taoism is not conceived good enough among the members. What I was trying to say is that probably teaching kids something so exotic as "Tao Te Ching" could impact positively in them. But forget it, I am dreaming a lot :death:
But let's say you have some kid whose father is a MAGA-maniac who hates black people, whose older brother would actually beat him up for not joining in a violent racist assault, and who lives on an estate where every rare black family unlucky enough to wind up there has been demonised and persecuted... Is a lack of Taoism in this kid's life really the thing pushing him toward following a similar path to his father, brother and neighbours?
I don't really understand what you're suggesting. That we tell children that domestic violence exists? What do you think that will achieve? What does them 'getting' the situation entail?
What a good example. First of all, I think this child has bad luck because he is raised in a very backwards house. We have to do something with this kid because is our duty.
Probably Taoism will not be so effective but who knows? What if we can expand his point of view?
Due to his racist father the kid never heard about Asian culture, so we can be there and help to understand the world is bigger than hate.
Yes, I guess it is positive to teach them what violence is without taboos. The opposite would make them blind. So if we take this from the roots we can avoid conflict situations in the future.
It is not the right way when we see a kid suffering of domestic violence and then say the usual: "let's put him in a psychologist"
As long as we live in a capitalist society, the above is a lost cause.
I can't see how you think children don't know what violence is.
Quoting javi2541997
There's two aspects to this - there's the fact about what violence is and then there's not wanting to do it to someone - you seem to be promoting the rather heterodox theory that it's the former not the latter that's the problem.
Quoting javi2541997
Why should children not get psychological help? It seems odd to suggest that teachers can intervene in a helpful way but psychologists can't. What is it about a teacher talking to children you think capable of bringing about psychological change that a psychologist talking to children can't do. Is there some magic teachers learn?
It is not lost if we believe in it. Probably in a capitalist Era is difficult but we can work together and establish some moral and ethical principles.
But on the grounds of what? It serves the purposes of capitalism if people are willing to be violent toward eachother, if they are competitive in a life and death manner.
They can know it but in a very simple way... It is not the same when you are more mature and can understand it more deeply.
Quoting Isaac
Understandable. So what do you think is the solution to this and why I am seeing it bad?
Quoting Isaac
I’m not saying they do not need psychological help but avoid it because somehow this tool is still stigmatized in our society... so I don’t know what can be worse the issue or the solution.
On grounds that, at least, people do not kill or harm each other. Because what are you saying is a vicious of competitiveness inside the money makers. But it is so different when this attitude attack the integrity of citizens.
Thanks for the feedback Tom and also for debating with me in this thread I think it was interesting :up:
I wish the story ends good Baker... :flower:
Agreed, but not uncommonly bad. The kind of hate and violence we both despise has a strong (I'd argue dominant) culturally-propagated aspect. I'm not sure what the answer is to that beyond cultivating a culture in which such hate is seen as shameful and low, the way, say, communism is seen in America. If teaching Taoism might help with that, great, but it's no panacea imo. Ultimately you're expecting a very dead guy in a book to hold more sway than a father, a brother, a gang, or a neighborhood.
Exposure to more considered ideas is helpful, but considered ideas often don't have the same kind of influence on children that deranged, paranoid, hateful ideas to. Unrelated to hate and violence, but my stepson's father is somewhat mentally unstable and is truly down the vaccination conspiracy theory rabbit hole. My stepson is a very intelligent lad, very good at school, but his father has got him parroting some of this deranged crap. What I find is that reasoning doesn't help very much. That which is learned without reason cannot be defeated by reason. Or something. I can't be bothered checking the quote.
Point being, hateful and violent behaviour is typically associated with irrational notions that are immune to reason, empirical counter-evidence, etc., rather are mediated by other things like rhetoric, lies, force of opinion, peer pressure and fear of contradiction. I'd be more optimistic about teachers identifying antisocial behaviour in children and intervening than teaching them about better ethics and hoping to convert a few. Although I don't have much faith in that either.
True. This is why is difficult to pursue because every individual is special and their mind is complex. Nevertheless, I guess we both are agree with the fact that we should not leave these kind of kids “ flowing around” with suck negative backgrounds.
I do not know yet which could be the right phenomenon to increase more consciousness about this issue. I mentioned Taoism previously but you all are right that it sounds so doctrinaire.
It is sad when these kind of kids end up harming others. Here the State failed both.
Quoting Kenosha Kid
Good one :up: developing into educational classes the abilities of having better notions and knowledge could be helpful too. It is difficult to achieve and this is why some people can be pessimistic.
Because I believe so... You would think I am a dreamer or a rookie in basics economics :death:
Interesting. So what do you think is going on in the child's psyche? They see violence, understand it in their simple way, but when a teacher explains it to them, they understand it in a deeper way. If they were capable of understanding it in this deeper way (no insurmountable cognitive barrier), then why didn't they understand it in the deep way first? I'm trying to draw out exactly what it is the teacher knows that the child doesn't, but which can be taught, and how the teacher came to know it.
Quoting javi2541997
I don't think it's radically complicated. Children are brought up to think so little of themselves that they'll unquestioningly follow the first role model who shows any sign of real power. The media know this and so products which appeal to that sell better than those which don't. The simplest (and least troublesome) representation of power is violent domination. So role models have this type of power and children emulate it. I mean, there's a lot more to it than that - whole books have been written on this stuff - but that's a potted summary.
You might like this cartoon:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/574421
I really liked it :up: