A new model of empathy: The rat

Vampire bats also exhibit altruistic behavior:

Quoting jorndoe

Whatever had the rats in the experiment free their fellow rat (even save a bit of food for them), I wouldn't be surprised is also an aspect of human moral behavior, or perhaps proto-morals of sorts.

I think our social instincts are a major source for our moral attitudes, but thinking of empathy as a sort of proto-morality is putting the cart before the horse. Morality is the icing on the cake, the rationalization, for our emotional and social behavior.

Quoting T Clark

Morality is the icing on the cake, the rationalization, for our emotional and social behavior.

:up:

Quoting T Clark

Morality is the icing on the cake, the rationalization, for our emotional and social behavior.

Yes, I also agree with this, yet disagree with

Quoting T Clark

I think our social instincts are a major source for our moral attitudes, but thinking of empathy as a sort of proto-morality is putting the cart before the horse.

One of us hasn't got your post right.

Quoting Kenosha Kid

One of us hasn't got your post right.

Are you saying you don't think our social instincts are a source of morality?

I read my wife's FB periodically and see a metric shit ton of videos showing things I have seen in the wild; things that fly in the face of all I was taught about animals growing up in a rural area/culture. I also have a hearty "meh" (if a "meh" can even be hearty) for all the scientists who try to distinguish our proclivities from those of the animals; whether bloody or loving or both.

I was thinking, with all the new video "evidence" there might be a positive "turn" in our understanding. Lots of anecdotal, isolated evidence can only be dismissed for so long. Perhaps a scientist should do a study: Are we turning, as Joshs suggested, in the racism thread, that we might be capable of doing? Or will the $ in factory farming get the science to bury it? Will the open conspiracy keep us killing without gratitude? Even though we all know better, and have since we killed the first animal to fill our bellies? Let us all say grace before we eat instead of living and killing in grace with what we eat.

New model of empathy? No. Old news for those with situational awareness.

Quoting T Clark

thinking of empathy as a sort of proto-morality is putting the cart before the horse

A taunting torturer can use empathy for bad. Empathy itself does not entail doing the right thing, but can just help understanding others.
(At least the rat experiment didn't show any taunting, as far as I can tell.) :)

Ages ago I read that some have less empathy and tend to make moral decisions based on perceived consequences, but this has been shown wrong.

Anyway, maybe the main thing that can be learned from these experiments, is that whatever morals (can) have emerged via biological evolution, even though we cannot derive such morals from biological evolution itself.

Reply to T Clark No, I absolutely do. I also don't believe that nature is in the habit of finding two ways to do the same thing, so our social biology most definitely underpins our morality. However it is social biology designed to cope with small groups who fare better if they help one another. It's not designed for cities of people who don't know one another, can't possibly help everyone who needs it, and have no reason to assume reciprocity. That seems to me where social biology fails and moral philosophy enters.

However, since we have mostly been blissfully unaware of why we feel the way we do and act the way we do, moral philosophy had been forced to a) place a priori truths instead of impulses, drives and capacities, and b) confuse post-hoc rationalisation with reasoning (the fallacy at the heart of Rationalism). That's not to say that reason plays no role, rather that morality is not fundamentally reasonable (Kahneman's System 2 taking credit for everything).

Quoting Kenosha Kid

It's not designed for cities of people who don't know one another, can't possibly help everyone who needs it, and have no reason to assume reciprocity. That seems to me where social biology fails and moral philosophy enters.

I'm not sure if that's true, but it seems plausible.

Reply to jorndoe Trees / plants also share nutrients and exist as a community.https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-trees-180968084/

Quoting jorndoe

proto-morals

Quoting jorndoe

Rat

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we have a new (role) model, the humble rat (Rattus rattus) who until Dec 2011 were treated as vermin, to be exterminated en masse. My my, how the times have changed. It was only yesterday that people minted money by selling rat poison and now, this study shows us a side that we never in our wildest dreams thought rodents had. Our relationship with animals needs a major overhaul but that would've been true even if rats and other animals are utterly devoid of empathy, right?

Till recently I thought morality was what came out when you mix empathy and reason, when heart and mind partner up and that it had to wait until reason grew up so to speak. However, without some proto-morality already in play we would've never gotten to the point where we could do that.

P. S. What about the so-called replication crisis in psychology.

The experiment teaches us some of the limits to empathy in humans.

Empath 1: I want to learn all about human empathy and morality and stuff.
Empath 2: Me too. Let's put a rat in a distressingly small cage and see if another rat will let it out.
Empath 1: Great idea.

Later:

Empaths in chorus: Wow! The other rat let it out! That's so cool. We know so much about human empathy and morality and stuff now. Let's do it on some more rats, though, just to make sure.

Quoting jorndoe

What might we learn from such experiments?

People suck?

It also teaches us that everything Richard Dawkins had to say about the survival of genes trumping the welfare of individuals has been forgotten. A rat gives up food for another rat. Bad for the rat, good for the gene pool.

Quoting jorndoe

What might we learn from such experiments?

That we are more appropriately considered vermin than are rats.

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

That we are more appropriately considered vermin than are rats.

:100: As far as the Earth is concerned, probably more like parasites than vermin. But yeah, right down there with them. They probably serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things, but I'm not sure what this is. I guess that's why they have TPF. :grin:

Quoting Benkei

People suck?

Quoting Ciceronianus the White

That we are more appropriately considered vermin than are rats.

What new might we learn? :)

Reply to jorndoe Duh. People vote for Trump!!!!

Quoting jorndoe

A taunting torturer can use empathy for bad. Empathy itself does not entail doing the right thing, but can just help understanding others.

But what is "the right thing" to begin with?

Quoting baker

But what is "the right thing" to begin with?

I think of Amartya Sen when I hear that question. Avoiding doing the obviously wrong thing is a start. E.g. we may not be certain whether working for an investment bank is an ethical career choice but if we find ourselves abducting children and selling them into slavery we've definitely gone wrong somewhere.