Introduction to the transfinite ordinals
In this thread, I was asked this question by @tim wood:
Quoting tim wood
Rather than hijack the other thread, I'm top-posting this here in the Math section where it may serve as a general resource to interested readers.
It's not particularly short, but I do believe it's simple, in the sense that you can read a little here and there and perhaps get the gist.
Comments, questions, and criticisms gladly appreciated. In particular, please let me know if anything is unclear or needs more explanation.
Contents
* Ordinal numbers
* Well-orders
* Order-types
* Some more ordinals
* Uncountable ordinals
* The Alephs
* The von Neumann ordinals
* The class of all ordinals
* Ordinal arithmetic
* Odds and ends about countable ordinals
* Ordinal Numbers
Most people have heard of Cantor's great discovery of the cardinal numbers, the Alephs, a way of assigning a measure of quantity to infinite sets. Far fewer have heard of ordinals, which were Cantor's other great discovery; and which are, in the modern formulation, logically prior to cardinals. Ordinals describe order, analogously to how cardinals describe quantity.
Ordinals find applications in mathematical logic, proof theory, set theory, and theoretical computer science, as well as being fascinating objects of study in their own right.
This article is a general introduction to the basics of the transfinite ordinal numbers.
* Well-orders
An ordinal number is the order-type of a well-ordered set. What does that mean?
The core concept of ordinals is the idea of a well order. A well-order is an order relation on a set such that every nonempty subset has a smallest element.
For example the usual [math]<[/math] order on the natural numbers is a well-order. The set of primes, the set of even numbers, the set of squares, each have a smallest member. Every possble nonempty set of the naturals has a smallest member, so the naturals are well-ordered by [math]<[/math].
On the other hand the usual order [math]<[/math] on the integers is not a well-order, because the negative numbers have no smallest element.
* Order-types
What we mean by an order-type is the "shape," or structure, of a well-ordered set.
Consider for example the natural numbers in their usual order, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ...
and the natural numbers with the positions of 1 and 2 switched, like this:
0, 2, 1, 3, 4, 5, ...
It's clear that this is a different order than the usual order; but that it's structurally the same. That is, there is an order-preserving bijection between the two ordered sets:
In other words we can find a bijection between the two sets that preserves their respective orders. Such an order-preserving bijection is called an order-isomorphism.
The "shape," or structure, of each of these well-ordered sets can be depicted as:
[math]\square \ \square \ \square \ \square \ \square \ \square \ \dots[/math]
On the other hand, consider the following interesting reordering of the natural numbers:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., 0
Here we have simply placed 0 at the end. We could, if we wanted to, formalize this by defining a new "funny order" relation [math]\prec[/math] defined like this:
* If [math]n < m[/math] and [math]n \neq 0[/math], then [math]n \prec 0[/math].
* [math]n \prec 0[/math] for all [math]n \neq 0[/math].
In other words [math]\prec[/math] is just like [math]<[/math] except that everyhing is "funny less than" 0.
You should convince yourself that "funny less than" is a well-order.
I should mention that each of the finite numbers 0, 1, 2, 3, ... is itself an ordinal representing a single order type. No matter how you rearrange finite set it's always got the same order type.
There's a notation for an ordered set. We denote the natural numbers in their usual order as [math](\mathbb N, <)[/math]. That is, it's an ordered pair where the first item is the set, and the second is the particular order relationship on the set.
Likewise [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] represents the funny order on the naturals, the one with 0 at the end.
There's a special notation for the ordered set [math](\mathbb N, <)[/math], and that is [math]\omega[/math]. That is, [math]\omega[/math] stands for the natural numbers in their usual order.
We can see right away that there is no order-isomorphism between these two ordered sets, because [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] has a largest element, while [math](\mathbb N, <)[/math] doesn't.
The shape, or structure, of [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] looks like this:
[math]\square \ \square \ \square \ \dots \ \square[/math]
If the usual order 0, 1, 2, 3, ... is called [math]\omega[/math], then our funny order [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] is called [math]\omega + 1[/math]; that is, the successor of [math]\omega[/math]
* Some more ordinals.
We can play this game indefinitely. How about
2, 3, 4, ..., 0, 1. That's a different order-type, named [math]\omega + 2[/math]. And
3, 4, 5, ..., 0, 1, 2 is [math]\omega + 3[/math].
We can keep doing this over and over; and we can take the limit of this process to get [math]\omega + \omega[/math]. How would we represent that with a funny ordering of the naturals? This is the even-odd order:
0, 2, 4, 6, ..., 1, 3, 5, 7, ... in which all the evens come before all the odds. It's just two copies of [math]\omega[/math], one after the other. The ordinal [math]\omega + \omega[/math] is also notated [math]\omega 2[/math], because ordinal multiplication is notated backwards. [math]\omega 2[/math] is 2 copies of [math]\omega[/math]. Apparently Cantor (who thought all this up) went back and forth on which way to notate ordinal multiplication, and in the end picked this one.
How could we represent three copies, [math]\omega 3[/math]? Instead of evens and odds, we can go by remainders mod 3:
0, 3, 6, 9, ..., 1, 4, 7, 10, ..., 2, 5, 8, 11, ...
We can do the same trick with remainders mod 4, 5, and so on, to represent [math]\omega 4, \omega 5, \dots[/math]. Eventually the upward limit of that process is [math]\omega [/math] copies of [math]\omega[/math], or [math]\omega * \omega = \omega^2[/math].
But now the modulo remainder trick doesn't work; and it's clear that there are going to be a lot more ordinals than there are obvious ways to reorder the naturals to represent them. We need new ideas.
But before going on, let's stop a moment to meet some more ordinals and make an amazing observation about them.
The successor of [math]\omega^2[/math] is [math]\omega^2 + 1[/math], then [math]\omega^2 + 2[/math], and so forth, then [math]\omega^2 + \omega[/math], and we keep on going. In fact ordinals look sort of like polynomials in [math]\omega[/math]. This notation is known as Cantor normal form.
Let's look at some more of these. After we run through [math]\omega^3, \omega^4, \dots[/math], the upper limit of that process is [math]\omega^\omega[/math]. If we keep on going, we come to [math]\omega^{\omega^\omega}[/math], [math]\omega^{\omega^{\omega^\omega}}[/math], and so forth; and eventually to the coolest number that I know, an [math]\omega[/math]-sized exponental tower of [math]\omega[/math]'s. This number is called [math]\epsilon_0 = \omega^{\omega^{{\omega^?}}}[/math]. Then there's a hierarchy [math]\epsilon_1[/math], [math]\epsilon_2[/math], and on and on. These are the epsilon numbers.
Now here is the punch line.
Every one of these ordinal numbers that I've shown so far is a countable set. It represents some well-ordering of [math]\mathbb N[/math].
After all, rearranging the elements of a set does not alter its cardinality. So it's obvious that [math]\omega, \omega + 1, \dots, \omega 2, \dots[/math] all have the same cardinality, and the epsilons you can take on faith. In fact the Wiki article on the epsilon numbers states that every epsilon number whose index is countable is itself countable.
I should note in case the exponentiation caused confusion, that ordinal exponentiation is not the same as cardinal exponentiation. [math]\aleph_0^{\aleph_0}[/math] is indeed uncountable, because it's cardinal exponentiation; but [math]\omega^\omega[/math] is countable by the definition of ordinal exponentiation.
* Uncountable ordinals.
Can there possibly be an uncountable ordinal? In fact there is. We sketch the construction as follows.
We've already noted that the [math]\sup[/math], or union, or least upper bound of a set of ordinals is an ordinal.
Now onsider the set of all possible countable ordinals; that is, the set of all well-orderings of [math]\mathbb N[/math]. We have to prove that this is a set, but that can be done.
Its union, or [math]\sup[/math], is an ordinal, but it can't be a countable one because then it would be a member of itself; and no ordinal is a member of itself. We call this ordinal [math]\omega_1[/math], the first uncountable ordinal. Its existence can be proven without the axiom of choice.
Trying to imagine an uncountable ordinal is mind boggling, but they exist even in ZF. In other words we know that the axiom of choice says that all sets can be well-ordered. But even without choice, some uncountable sets can be well-ordered. Just not all of them.
* The Alephs.
Ok time to catch our breath. The ordinals are dizzying to contemplate. Let's take a digression to define the Aleph numbers. These are Cantor's famous cardinalities. What are they, exactly? In the early days of set theory, a cardinal number was the equivalence class of all sets bijectively equivalent to each other. So [math]\aleph_0[/math] was the class of all sets bijectively equivalent to the natural numbers, and so forth.
There is a problem with this definition, which is that the Alephs are not sets. For the same reason that there's no set of all sets, there's also no set of all sets bijectively equivalent to the naturals or any other cardinality. [I'm using cardinality a little circularly there, but you know what I mean].
John von Neumann, who we'll talk about more in a bit, is responsible for the following modern definition, called the von Neumann cardinality assignment. Although tonight as I was writing this is the first time I ever heard it called that, and learned that von Neumann is responsible for the idea. He showed how to define the cardinality of any well-ordered set as a particular ordinal, so that cardinals are sets and can be manipulated using the rules of set theory. That turns out to be more convenient than the older definition.
We need the fact that any nonempty collection of ordinals must have a smallest ordinal. In other words the class of ordinals is itself well-ordered.
(However the class of ordinals is not a set, that's the Burali-Forti paradox).
Now given any well-ordered set, we define its Aleph number as the least ordinal that's cardinally equivalent to that set. How do we know that there is one? Since the set is well-ordered by hypothesis, it's cardinally equivalent to at least one ordinal. In other words the class of ordinals cardinally equivalent to our set is nonempty; therefore there's a smallest one. That's the one that we define as the set's Aleph.
And since the Alephs are then a collection of ordinals, there's a smallest one, which is [math]\aleph_0[/math], and a next one, [math]\aleph_1[/math], and so forth.
That's why there's no [math]\aleph_{\frac{1}{2}}[/math] for example. Nobody ever asks why the Alephs are indexed by whole numbers, but now it's clear why. Each Aleph is itself an ordinal, and any collection of ordinals is well-ordered. The collection of all the Alephs is not a set, by the way. Again, same reason as that there's no set of all sets.
In fact the Alephs are indexed not just by natural numbers, but by ordinals. So for each ordinal [math]\alpha[/math], there's an [math]\aleph_\alpha[/math]. There's an [math]\aleph_\omega[/math], and an [math]\aleph_{\omega_1}[/math], and so forth. Those are some big sets!
Let's work out the first few Alephs.
What is the least of all the ordinals with the same cardinality as [math]\mathbb N[/math]? We've seen that it's [math]\omega[/math]. So we define [math]\aleph_0 \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} \omega[/math].
What's next? We define [math]\aleph_1 \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} \omega_1[/math]. So now we can visualize [math]\aleph_1[/math]. It's the cardinality of the set of all countable ordinals.
And then [math]\aleph_2 \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} \omega_2[/math] is the cardinality of the set of all ordinals of cardinality [math]\aleph_1[/math].
And since each of the finite numbers 1, 2, 3, ... is itself an ordinal, we see that [math]\aleph_0[/math] is just the cardinality of the set of all finite ordinals.
And now we can concretely visualize all the Alephs. For suitable values of "concretely," anyway. Each Aleph is the cardinality of the set of ordinals one level down. You want to know what is [math]\aleph_{47}[/math]? It's the cardinality of the set of all well-orders of a set of cardinality [math]\aleph_{46}[/math].
Let me say this again to emphasize how simple it is.
How many different well-orderings are their of finite sets? There are [math]\aleph_0[/math] of them, one for each of 0, 1, 2, ... How many well-orderings are there of a set of cardinality [math]\aleph_0[/math]? There are [math]\aleph_1[/math] of them. How many well-orderings of a set of cardinality [math]\aleph_1[/math]? There are [math]\aleph_2[/math] of them. And so on all the way up.
One final wrinkle. I said this definition works for any set that is well-orderable. Given a well-ordered set, we find the class of all ordinals cardinally equivalent to it, and define that set's Aleph as the least such ordinal.
In the presence of the Axiom of Choice, every set can be well-ordered and this definition works for every possible set. But in the absence of choice, there are infinite sets that are not well-ordered, so we can't use this definition. In that case there's a trick, called Scott's trick, that can assign a cardinality to every set, even the non-well-ordered ones. That's a little outside the scope of this exposition but I'm mentioning it for completeness.
* The von Neumann ordinals.
We've seen that we ran out of clever ways to visualize well-orders of the natural numbers long before we ran out of countable ordinals. Here's another nice way to visualize the ordinals. In fact this method provides a specific, canonical set to represent each ordinal.
John von Neumann was a mathematician and pure and applied scientist. He invented mathematical game theory, worked on the hydrogen bomb, made fundamental contributions to functional analysis and quantum mechanics, worked on operator algebras and fluid mechanics and more. In his time he was regarded as the smartest man in the world. And as if all that wasn't enough for one short life -- he died tragically at 53 of cancer, possibly due to radiation exposure contracted at Los Alamos National Laboratory -- he gave us our modern definition of ordinal numbers.
First, a transitive set is a set each of whose elements is also a subset.
If [math]X[/math] is any set, we define its successor [math]X'[/math] as [math]X \cup \{X\}[/math]; that is, [math]X[/math] unioned with the set containing [math]X[/math]
We can then build up all the ordinals as transitive sets, starting from the empty set.
[math]\emptyset[/math] is vacuously a transitive set, which we call [math]0[/math].
If [math]n'[/math] is the successor of [math]n[/math], then:
[math]0' = \emptyset \cup \{\emptyset\} = \{\emptyset\}\stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} 1[/math].
[math]1' = 1 \cup \{1\} = \{{\emptyset, \{ \emptyset \} }\} \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} 2[/math],
[math]2' = 2 \cup \{2\} = \{{\emptyset, \{ \emptyset \} }, \{\emptyset, \{\emptyset\}\}\} \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} 3[/math]
and so on.
Now if [math]X[/math] is a set of ordinals, we define [math]\sup(X) = \bigcup X[/math], the union of all the ordinals in [math]X[/math]. We also call that the least upper bound of that set of ordinals.
If [math]X[/math] has a largest element, such as for example [math]X = \{1,2,3,4,5\}[/math], then [math]\sup(X) = 5[/math], the largest element. In other words, the union of a set of ordinals having a largest element is just that largest element.
But if the set of ordinals has no largest element, then its union is a brand new ordinal. So [math]\sup \{0, 1, 2, 3, ...\} = \omega[/math]. Such an ordinal is called a limit ordinal. That is, a limit ordinal is an ordinal that's not the successor of any ordinal.
Once we reach [math]\omega[/math], we keep taking successors till we reach [math]\omega 2[/math] and all the rest of them. The idea is to keep taking successors then limits, successors then limits, without end.
This gives another way to think of the ordinals.
The natural numbers are produced by starting with 0, and then repeatedly applying the successor operation.
The ordinals are just like that, but in addition to the successor operation, we also have the sup operation. We keep taking successors, and every once in a while we accumulate a countably infinite collection of successors into their sup and keep on going.
One of the virtues of the von Neumann ordinals is that every ordinal is the set of all smaller ordinals.
And von Neumann's idea allows us to give the standard, official definition of an ordinal number that you'll find in set theory textbooks:
An ordinal is a transitive set well-ordered by [math]\in[/math].
* The class of all ordinals.
As I mentioned, the collection of all the ordinals is not a set. The class of ordinals is called On or sometimes Ord. It's On that Cantor originally identified with God. Cantor called the class of ordinals [math]\Omega[/math], the Absolute infinite. He already knew that the class of all ordinals is not a set. He said:
[quote=Georg Cantor]
The system ? of all [ordinal] numbers is an inconsistent, absolutely infinite multiplicity.
[/quote]
In modern set theory, On is of great theoretical importance.
* Ordinal arithmetic
We can add, multiply, and exponentiate ordinals. The Wiki writeup of ordinal arithmetic is pretty good and I can't add anything to it. One thing to know is that ordinal addition and multiplication are not in general commutative. They are both associative, and multiplication left-distributes but does not right-distribute over addition.
* Odds and ends about countable ordinals.
The countable ordinals are very wild and strange. [math]\epsilon_0[/math] is one mind-boggling countable ordinal we saw.
A surprising fact is that every countable ordinal can be order-embedded into the rationals. That is, for every countable ordinal, there is a set of rationals in their usual order that's order-isomorphic to that ordinal.
We've seen that there are uncountably many well-orders of [math]\mathbb N[/math]. But there are only countably many Turing machines, or Python or C++ programs if you prefer. So there must exist noncomputable well-orderings of the natural numbers; and if there are any, since they're ordinals, there's a smallest one. The smallest noncomputable countable ordinal is called the Church-Kleene ordinal. From that point on, none of the order types of the natural numbers are computable.
Here's the Feferman–Schütte ordinal, whose Wiki definition is far from clear to me and about which I know nothing.
Wikipedia has an article on large countable ordinals that shows just how complicated things can get.
I'm in too deep, time to stop.
Quoting tim wood
Attempt at a coherent question here. Maybe best to leave it simple. What is an infinite ordinal?
Rather than hijack the other thread, I'm top-posting this here in the Math section where it may serve as a general resource to interested readers.
It's not particularly short, but I do believe it's simple, in the sense that you can read a little here and there and perhaps get the gist.
Comments, questions, and criticisms gladly appreciated. In particular, please let me know if anything is unclear or needs more explanation.
Contents
* Ordinal numbers
* Well-orders
* Order-types
* Some more ordinals
* Uncountable ordinals
* The Alephs
* The von Neumann ordinals
* The class of all ordinals
* Ordinal arithmetic
* Odds and ends about countable ordinals
* Ordinal Numbers
Most people have heard of Cantor's great discovery of the cardinal numbers, the Alephs, a way of assigning a measure of quantity to infinite sets. Far fewer have heard of ordinals, which were Cantor's other great discovery; and which are, in the modern formulation, logically prior to cardinals. Ordinals describe order, analogously to how cardinals describe quantity.
Ordinals find applications in mathematical logic, proof theory, set theory, and theoretical computer science, as well as being fascinating objects of study in their own right.
This article is a general introduction to the basics of the transfinite ordinal numbers.
* Well-orders
An ordinal number is the order-type of a well-ordered set. What does that mean?
The core concept of ordinals is the idea of a well order. A well-order is an order relation on a set such that every nonempty subset has a smallest element.
For example the usual [math]<[/math] order on the natural numbers is a well-order. The set of primes, the set of even numbers, the set of squares, each have a smallest member. Every possble nonempty set of the naturals has a smallest member, so the naturals are well-ordered by [math]<[/math].
On the other hand the usual order [math]<[/math] on the integers is not a well-order, because the negative numbers have no smallest element.
* Order-types
What we mean by an order-type is the "shape," or structure, of a well-ordered set.
Consider for example the natural numbers in their usual order, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ...
and the natural numbers with the positions of 1 and 2 switched, like this:
0, 2, 1, 3, 4, 5, ...
It's clear that this is a different order than the usual order; but that it's structurally the same. That is, there is an order-preserving bijection between the two ordered sets:
0 1 2 3 4 5 ...
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ...
| | | | | | ...
v v v v v v ...
0 2 1 3 4 5 ...
In other words we can find a bijection between the two sets that preserves their respective orders. Such an order-preserving bijection is called an order-isomorphism.
The "shape," or structure, of each of these well-ordered sets can be depicted as:
[math]\square \ \square \ \square \ \square \ \square \ \square \ \dots[/math]
On the other hand, consider the following interesting reordering of the natural numbers:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., 0
Here we have simply placed 0 at the end. We could, if we wanted to, formalize this by defining a new "funny order" relation [math]\prec[/math] defined like this:
* If [math]n < m[/math] and [math]n \neq 0[/math], then [math]n \prec 0[/math].
* [math]n \prec 0[/math] for all [math]n \neq 0[/math].
In other words [math]\prec[/math] is just like [math]<[/math] except that everyhing is "funny less than" 0.
You should convince yourself that "funny less than" is a well-order.
I should mention that each of the finite numbers 0, 1, 2, 3, ... is itself an ordinal representing a single order type. No matter how you rearrange finite set it's always got the same order type.
There's a notation for an ordered set. We denote the natural numbers in their usual order as [math](\mathbb N, <)[/math]. That is, it's an ordered pair where the first item is the set, and the second is the particular order relationship on the set.
Likewise [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] represents the funny order on the naturals, the one with 0 at the end.
There's a special notation for the ordered set [math](\mathbb N, <)[/math], and that is [math]\omega[/math]. That is, [math]\omega[/math] stands for the natural numbers in their usual order.
We can see right away that there is no order-isomorphism between these two ordered sets, because [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] has a largest element, while [math](\mathbb N, <)[/math] doesn't.
The shape, or structure, of [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] looks like this:
[math]\square \ \square \ \square \ \dots \ \square[/math]
If the usual order 0, 1, 2, 3, ... is called [math]\omega[/math], then our funny order [math](\mathbb N, \prec)[/math] is called [math]\omega + 1[/math]; that is, the successor of [math]\omega[/math]
* Some more ordinals.
We can play this game indefinitely. How about
2, 3, 4, ..., 0, 1. That's a different order-type, named [math]\omega + 2[/math]. And
3, 4, 5, ..., 0, 1, 2 is [math]\omega + 3[/math].
We can keep doing this over and over; and we can take the limit of this process to get [math]\omega + \omega[/math]. How would we represent that with a funny ordering of the naturals? This is the even-odd order:
0, 2, 4, 6, ..., 1, 3, 5, 7, ... in which all the evens come before all the odds. It's just two copies of [math]\omega[/math], one after the other. The ordinal [math]\omega + \omega[/math] is also notated [math]\omega 2[/math], because ordinal multiplication is notated backwards. [math]\omega 2[/math] is 2 copies of [math]\omega[/math]. Apparently Cantor (who thought all this up) went back and forth on which way to notate ordinal multiplication, and in the end picked this one.
How could we represent three copies, [math]\omega 3[/math]? Instead of evens and odds, we can go by remainders mod 3:
0, 3, 6, 9, ..., 1, 4, 7, 10, ..., 2, 5, 8, 11, ...
We can do the same trick with remainders mod 4, 5, and so on, to represent [math]\omega 4, \omega 5, \dots[/math]. Eventually the upward limit of that process is [math]\omega [/math] copies of [math]\omega[/math], or [math]\omega * \omega = \omega^2[/math].
But now the modulo remainder trick doesn't work; and it's clear that there are going to be a lot more ordinals than there are obvious ways to reorder the naturals to represent them. We need new ideas.
But before going on, let's stop a moment to meet some more ordinals and make an amazing observation about them.
The successor of [math]\omega^2[/math] is [math]\omega^2 + 1[/math], then [math]\omega^2 + 2[/math], and so forth, then [math]\omega^2 + \omega[/math], and we keep on going. In fact ordinals look sort of like polynomials in [math]\omega[/math]. This notation is known as Cantor normal form.
Let's look at some more of these. After we run through [math]\omega^3, \omega^4, \dots[/math], the upper limit of that process is [math]\omega^\omega[/math]. If we keep on going, we come to [math]\omega^{\omega^\omega}[/math], [math]\omega^{\omega^{\omega^\omega}}[/math], and so forth; and eventually to the coolest number that I know, an [math]\omega[/math]-sized exponental tower of [math]\omega[/math]'s. This number is called [math]\epsilon_0 = \omega^{\omega^{{\omega^?}}}[/math]. Then there's a hierarchy [math]\epsilon_1[/math], [math]\epsilon_2[/math], and on and on. These are the epsilon numbers.
Now here is the punch line.
Every one of these ordinal numbers that I've shown so far is a countable set. It represents some well-ordering of [math]\mathbb N[/math].
After all, rearranging the elements of a set does not alter its cardinality. So it's obvious that [math]\omega, \omega + 1, \dots, \omega 2, \dots[/math] all have the same cardinality, and the epsilons you can take on faith. In fact the Wiki article on the epsilon numbers states that every epsilon number whose index is countable is itself countable.
I should note in case the exponentiation caused confusion, that ordinal exponentiation is not the same as cardinal exponentiation. [math]\aleph_0^{\aleph_0}[/math] is indeed uncountable, because it's cardinal exponentiation; but [math]\omega^\omega[/math] is countable by the definition of ordinal exponentiation.
* Uncountable ordinals.
Can there possibly be an uncountable ordinal? In fact there is. We sketch the construction as follows.
We've already noted that the [math]\sup[/math], or union, or least upper bound of a set of ordinals is an ordinal.
Now onsider the set of all possible countable ordinals; that is, the set of all well-orderings of [math]\mathbb N[/math]. We have to prove that this is a set, but that can be done.
Its union, or [math]\sup[/math], is an ordinal, but it can't be a countable one because then it would be a member of itself; and no ordinal is a member of itself. We call this ordinal [math]\omega_1[/math], the first uncountable ordinal. Its existence can be proven without the axiom of choice.
Trying to imagine an uncountable ordinal is mind boggling, but they exist even in ZF. In other words we know that the axiom of choice says that all sets can be well-ordered. But even without choice, some uncountable sets can be well-ordered. Just not all of them.
* The Alephs.
Ok time to catch our breath. The ordinals are dizzying to contemplate. Let's take a digression to define the Aleph numbers. These are Cantor's famous cardinalities. What are they, exactly? In the early days of set theory, a cardinal number was the equivalence class of all sets bijectively equivalent to each other. So [math]\aleph_0[/math] was the class of all sets bijectively equivalent to the natural numbers, and so forth.
There is a problem with this definition, which is that the Alephs are not sets. For the same reason that there's no set of all sets, there's also no set of all sets bijectively equivalent to the naturals or any other cardinality. [I'm using cardinality a little circularly there, but you know what I mean].
John von Neumann, who we'll talk about more in a bit, is responsible for the following modern definition, called the von Neumann cardinality assignment. Although tonight as I was writing this is the first time I ever heard it called that, and learned that von Neumann is responsible for the idea. He showed how to define the cardinality of any well-ordered set as a particular ordinal, so that cardinals are sets and can be manipulated using the rules of set theory. That turns out to be more convenient than the older definition.
We need the fact that any nonempty collection of ordinals must have a smallest ordinal. In other words the class of ordinals is itself well-ordered.
(However the class of ordinals is not a set, that's the Burali-Forti paradox).
Now given any well-ordered set, we define its Aleph number as the least ordinal that's cardinally equivalent to that set. How do we know that there is one? Since the set is well-ordered by hypothesis, it's cardinally equivalent to at least one ordinal. In other words the class of ordinals cardinally equivalent to our set is nonempty; therefore there's a smallest one. That's the one that we define as the set's Aleph.
And since the Alephs are then a collection of ordinals, there's a smallest one, which is [math]\aleph_0[/math], and a next one, [math]\aleph_1[/math], and so forth.
That's why there's no [math]\aleph_{\frac{1}{2}}[/math] for example. Nobody ever asks why the Alephs are indexed by whole numbers, but now it's clear why. Each Aleph is itself an ordinal, and any collection of ordinals is well-ordered. The collection of all the Alephs is not a set, by the way. Again, same reason as that there's no set of all sets.
In fact the Alephs are indexed not just by natural numbers, but by ordinals. So for each ordinal [math]\alpha[/math], there's an [math]\aleph_\alpha[/math]. There's an [math]\aleph_\omega[/math], and an [math]\aleph_{\omega_1}[/math], and so forth. Those are some big sets!
Let's work out the first few Alephs.
What is the least of all the ordinals with the same cardinality as [math]\mathbb N[/math]? We've seen that it's [math]\omega[/math]. So we define [math]\aleph_0 \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} \omega[/math].
What's next? We define [math]\aleph_1 \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} \omega_1[/math]. So now we can visualize [math]\aleph_1[/math]. It's the cardinality of the set of all countable ordinals.
And then [math]\aleph_2 \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} \omega_2[/math] is the cardinality of the set of all ordinals of cardinality [math]\aleph_1[/math].
And since each of the finite numbers 1, 2, 3, ... is itself an ordinal, we see that [math]\aleph_0[/math] is just the cardinality of the set of all finite ordinals.
And now we can concretely visualize all the Alephs. For suitable values of "concretely," anyway. Each Aleph is the cardinality of the set of ordinals one level down. You want to know what is [math]\aleph_{47}[/math]? It's the cardinality of the set of all well-orders of a set of cardinality [math]\aleph_{46}[/math].
Let me say this again to emphasize how simple it is.
How many different well-orderings are their of finite sets? There are [math]\aleph_0[/math] of them, one for each of 0, 1, 2, ... How many well-orderings are there of a set of cardinality [math]\aleph_0[/math]? There are [math]\aleph_1[/math] of them. How many well-orderings of a set of cardinality [math]\aleph_1[/math]? There are [math]\aleph_2[/math] of them. And so on all the way up.
One final wrinkle. I said this definition works for any set that is well-orderable. Given a well-ordered set, we find the class of all ordinals cardinally equivalent to it, and define that set's Aleph as the least such ordinal.
In the presence of the Axiom of Choice, every set can be well-ordered and this definition works for every possible set. But in the absence of choice, there are infinite sets that are not well-ordered, so we can't use this definition. In that case there's a trick, called Scott's trick, that can assign a cardinality to every set, even the non-well-ordered ones. That's a little outside the scope of this exposition but I'm mentioning it for completeness.
* The von Neumann ordinals.
We've seen that we ran out of clever ways to visualize well-orders of the natural numbers long before we ran out of countable ordinals. Here's another nice way to visualize the ordinals. In fact this method provides a specific, canonical set to represent each ordinal.
John von Neumann was a mathematician and pure and applied scientist. He invented mathematical game theory, worked on the hydrogen bomb, made fundamental contributions to functional analysis and quantum mechanics, worked on operator algebras and fluid mechanics and more. In his time he was regarded as the smartest man in the world. And as if all that wasn't enough for one short life -- he died tragically at 53 of cancer, possibly due to radiation exposure contracted at Los Alamos National Laboratory -- he gave us our modern definition of ordinal numbers.
First, a transitive set is a set each of whose elements is also a subset.
If [math]X[/math] is any set, we define its successor [math]X'[/math] as [math]X \cup \{X\}[/math]; that is, [math]X[/math] unioned with the set containing [math]X[/math]
We can then build up all the ordinals as transitive sets, starting from the empty set.
[math]\emptyset[/math] is vacuously a transitive set, which we call [math]0[/math].
If [math]n'[/math] is the successor of [math]n[/math], then:
[math]0' = \emptyset \cup \{\emptyset\} = \{\emptyset\}\stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} 1[/math].
[math]1' = 1 \cup \{1\} = \{{\emptyset, \{ \emptyset \} }\} \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} 2[/math],
[math]2' = 2 \cup \{2\} = \{{\emptyset, \{ \emptyset \} }, \{\emptyset, \{\emptyset\}\}\} \stackrel{\text{def}}{\equiv} 3[/math]
and so on.
Now if [math]X[/math] is a set of ordinals, we define [math]\sup(X) = \bigcup X[/math], the union of all the ordinals in [math]X[/math]. We also call that the least upper bound of that set of ordinals.
If [math]X[/math] has a largest element, such as for example [math]X = \{1,2,3,4,5\}[/math], then [math]\sup(X) = 5[/math], the largest element. In other words, the union of a set of ordinals having a largest element is just that largest element.
But if the set of ordinals has no largest element, then its union is a brand new ordinal. So [math]\sup \{0, 1, 2, 3, ...\} = \omega[/math]. Such an ordinal is called a limit ordinal. That is, a limit ordinal is an ordinal that's not the successor of any ordinal.
Once we reach [math]\omega[/math], we keep taking successors till we reach [math]\omega 2[/math] and all the rest of them. The idea is to keep taking successors then limits, successors then limits, without end.
This gives another way to think of the ordinals.
The natural numbers are produced by starting with 0, and then repeatedly applying the successor operation.
The ordinals are just like that, but in addition to the successor operation, we also have the sup operation. We keep taking successors, and every once in a while we accumulate a countably infinite collection of successors into their sup and keep on going.
One of the virtues of the von Neumann ordinals is that every ordinal is the set of all smaller ordinals.
And von Neumann's idea allows us to give the standard, official definition of an ordinal number that you'll find in set theory textbooks:
An ordinal is a transitive set well-ordered by [math]\in[/math].
* The class of all ordinals.
As I mentioned, the collection of all the ordinals is not a set. The class of ordinals is called On or sometimes Ord. It's On that Cantor originally identified with God. Cantor called the class of ordinals [math]\Omega[/math], the Absolute infinite. He already knew that the class of all ordinals is not a set. He said:
[quote=Georg Cantor]
The system ? of all [ordinal] numbers is an inconsistent, absolutely infinite multiplicity.
[/quote]
In modern set theory, On is of great theoretical importance.
* Ordinal arithmetic
We can add, multiply, and exponentiate ordinals. The Wiki writeup of ordinal arithmetic is pretty good and I can't add anything to it. One thing to know is that ordinal addition and multiplication are not in general commutative. They are both associative, and multiplication left-distributes but does not right-distribute over addition.
* Odds and ends about countable ordinals.
The countable ordinals are very wild and strange. [math]\epsilon_0[/math] is one mind-boggling countable ordinal we saw.
A surprising fact is that every countable ordinal can be order-embedded into the rationals. That is, for every countable ordinal, there is a set of rationals in their usual order that's order-isomorphic to that ordinal.
We've seen that there are uncountably many well-orders of [math]\mathbb N[/math]. But there are only countably many Turing machines, or Python or C++ programs if you prefer. So there must exist noncomputable well-orderings of the natural numbers; and if there are any, since they're ordinals, there's a smallest one. The smallest noncomputable countable ordinal is called the Church-Kleene ordinal. From that point on, none of the order types of the natural numbers are computable.
Here's the Feferman–Schütte ordinal, whose Wiki definition is far from clear to me and about which I know nothing.
Wikipedia has an article on large countable ordinals that shows just how complicated things can get.
I'm in too deep, time to stop.
Comments (42)
Not sure I understand the question. The ordering is given, we don't have to find it. Like the usual ordering on the natural numbers: 0, 1, 2, 3, ... We are given the ordering, then we observe that it's a well-ordering in which each nonempty subset has a smallest element.
Quoting tim wood
The key point is that the natural numbers start with 0 and are then produced by taking successors. The ordinals start with 0 and are produced by taking successors, and then accumulating successors in the limit, or sup operation. The ordinals are like the naturals, but with two generators -- successor and sup -- rather than just the one successor operation of the naturals.
So we go 0, 1, 2, 3, ...; and then we slurp up all of those into [math]\omega[/math] and then keep on going: 0, 1, 2, 3, ..., [math]\omega, \omega + 1, \omega + 2, \dots, \omega 2, \dots, \omega 3, \dots[/math], and all the way up to [math]\epsilon_0[/math] and beyond.
It's a little dizzying, it honestly takes a long time to get used to. But the basic idea is successors and sups, successors and sups.
Quoting tim wood
Thanks.
Quoting Banno
I found that shortness and clarity were inversely related. I tried best I could to make it short and clear, and in the end strove for clarity. Readers will have to say whether I succeeded. For what it's worth, ordinals are a little complicated. I've been coming back to this material periodically for years.
I recommend a book called Infinity and the Mind by Rudy Rucker. It has a fantastic visualization of the countable ordinals.
Quoting jgill
Thanks!
The question was asked by tim wood: "What is an infinite ordinal?"
As direct an answer I can provide:
S is an ordinal if and only if all three: (1) every member of a member S of is a member of S, and (2) for any different members x and y of S, either x is a member of y or y is a member of x, and (3) in every non-empty subset of S there is a member m in the subset such that no member of the subset is a member of m.
S is infinite if and only if there is no 1-1 correspondence between S and a natural number.
S is an infinite ordinal if and only if both (1) S is an ordinal, and (2) S is infinite.
A well ordering of set S provides that every non-empty subset of S has a first element. And S is a subset of S, so if S is non-empty, then S has a first element. The first element of any ordinal is 0 (the empty set).
But there are orderings other than well orderings.
Quoting tim wood
Not if the set is infinite.
Also, if this is pertinent to your question, bear in mind that some ordinals have no last element and some ordinals do have a last element.
Quoting tim wood
What does "uniquely orderable" mean?
Then we see that S is an ordinal if and only if both (1) every member of a member of S is a member of S, and (2) the membership relation on S is a well ordering of S.
Then, along the lines of fishfry's post, it is a theorem of ZF (transifinite induction is used) that for any set S and well ordering R of S, there is a unique ordinal D, such that
is isomorphic with. So D is called 'the order type of '.
I'm not sure what you mean by in-order. Do you mean in its usual order? No. A well-order is an order in which every nonempty subset has a smallest element. Like the natural numbers in their usual order.
Quoting tim wood
No, not at all. For example we know from cardinality theory that there is a bijection from the natural numbers to the integers. So we can in fact permute the natural numbers, which are well ordered, to the integers, which aren't.
It's easier to see this in the other direction. In their usual order, the integers are:
..., -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ...
which is NOT a well-order, because there is no first element.
But what if I reorder them like this:
0, -1, 1, -2, 2, -3, 3, -4, 4, ...
That IS a well-order, because it has the same order-type as the natural numbers. So clearly we can take a set that's not well-ordered, permute its elements, and make it well-ordered. And we could do the same in reverse.
Quoting tim wood
Every permutation of a finite set is a well-order. All finite sets are well-ordered and every permutation of a finite set has exactly the same order type. If I have a, b, c and then c, b, a, there's clearly an order-isomorphism between those two orders.
Quoting tim wood
We can rearrange 0,1,2,3,4,... into 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., 0. The former has order type [math]\omega[/math], and the latter has order type [math]\omega + 1[/math]. So for infinite sets, permuting does not preserve order type.
Quoting tim wood
[math]\omega + 1[/math] is the order 1, 2, 3, ..., 0.
[math]\omega + \omega[/math] is the even-odd order 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, ..., 1, 3, 5, 7, ...
[math]\omega \times \omega = \omega^2[/math] is a tricky one. We need [math]\omega[/math] copies of [math]\omega[/math]. There's no "obvious" rearrangement of the natural numbers that does that, even though there is one. It's just not obvious. But we can use the rationals.
Consider, in the rationals, the set 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16, ... That's an instance of [math]\omega[/math].
So 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, ..., 1+1/2, 1+3/4, 1+7/8, ..., 2+1/2, 2+3/4, 2+7/8, ..., 3+1/2, 3+3/4, 3+7/8, ...,
gives us a subset of the rationals in their usual order that's an instance of [math]\omega[/math] copies of [math]\omega[/math], or [math]\omega^2[/math].
All of the countable ordinals are buried in the rationals in their usual order, so the rationals give a nice class of visualizations.
Quoting tim wood
[math]2^{\aleph_0}[/math], right? That's basic cardinality. Well there are [math]2^{\aleph_0}[/math] subsets all together, but only countably many infinite subsets, leaving [math]2^{\aleph_0}[/math] infinite subsets. You know the old song. [math]\aleph_0[/math] bottles of beer on the wall, [math]\aleph_0[/math] bottles of beer, you take one down, pass it around, [math]\aleph_0[/math] bottles of beer on the wall!
Quoting tim wood
What do you mean "each" [math]\omega[/math]? There's only one such ordinal. It would be like saying "each 3." There's only one 3.
By in-order do you mean in its usual order? Well-orders don't require a set being lined up in its usual order. We've seen that some permutations result in well-orders and others don't, like the naturals-to-integers example. And the notation [math]\omega ![/math] is not defined at all, for the reason that you can't subtract 1 from a limit ordinal. So we couldn't sensibly define that even if we tried.
Quoting tim wood
Do you mean [math]\epsilon_0[/math]? No, there's [math]\epsilon_0 + 1, [/math], [math]\epsilon_0 + 2[/math], etc. We can always take successors. Remember there are two rules:
* Given an ordinal, we can always take its successor.
* Given a set of ordinals, we can always take their sup or least upper bound, in the same way we can aggregate 0, 1, 2, 3, ... into the single ordinal [math]\omega[/math] and then keep on going with successors.
The procession of ordinals never ends.
Quoting tim wood
Keep taking successors, and when you accumulate a bunch of those, accumulate them into their sup, or least upper bound.
Quoting tim wood
Successors and sups. Successors and sups. Never ends.
Quoting tim wood
Keep asking questions. These are not easy concepts, the ordinals are a deep idea.
Can you tell me what video you saw? I'm curious to know.
If you don't mind I'll take a shot at answering your questions to @Tones.
Quoting tim wood
Well-ordering means that every nonempty subset has a least, or first, or smallest, element. Means the same thing. NOT like the integers, which have no first element. Does that make sense?
{a,b,c} is ordered lexicographically, and {b,c,a} isn't, but they have the same order type and it's a well-order.
Quoting tim wood
Every permutation of a FINITE set is well-ordered and is the same order type.
'first' in the sense that there is no member that precedes it in the ordering. Usually we say 'least' or 'minimal'.
Quoting tim wood
In ordinary mathematics, other than for colloquial emphasis, there is no difference in meaning between 'can be' and 'is'.
Quoting tim wood
The definition of 'R is a well ordering of S' is:
All three hold: (1) R is a subset of the set of ordered pairs of members of S, and (2) for any different members x and y of S, either Rxy or Ryx, and (3) for any non-empty subset of S there is a member m of the subset such that there is no member x of the subset such that Rxm.
The definition of 'There is a well ordering of S' (or 'S is well ordered') is:
There exists an R such R is a well ordering of S.
Lexicographic ordering is something different.
Quoting tim wood
Every permutation of {1 2 3} "induces" a distinct well ordering of {1 2 3}.
A permutation of a set is a bijection from the set onto itself. For each permutation f of {1 2 3} there is the well ordering R on {1 2 3} defined by;
Rxy <-> (x e {1 2 3} & y e {1 2 3} & f(x) < f(y))
Yes but the same order-type, which is how we define an ordinal. Every possible permutation of a three-element set has the order type of the ordinal 3. Important to note in the present discussion I think.
No. The set of all permutations of S is the set of all bijections from S onto S. The set of all well orderings of S is something different.
Quoting tim wood
For a natural number n, we have n! = the cardinality of the set of all permutations of n. But n! is not the set of all permutations of n.
So I would take 'w!' ['w' reads as omega] to mean the cardinality of the set of all permutations of w.
Quoting tim wood
By 'NN' I surmise you mean the set of natural numbers. That's confusing notation. I would just use 'N' or 'w' [read as omega].
Quoting tim wood
w = N = card(N) = aleph_0 = the order type of
'w', 'N', 'card(N)', 'aleph_0' are all names for the same set.
If S is an infinite subset of N, then w = card(S)
Quoting tim wood
First, the cardinality of the set of infinite subsets of N is the cardinality of the power set of N (because the set of all finite subsets of N is countable, and the cardinality of the union of a countable set and an uncountable set is the cardinality of the uncountable set).
So the question is:
What is the value of x in the following?:
card(power set of S) = card({f | f is a function from S into {0 1}) = aleph_x
The answer to that depends on the continuum hypothesis.
Quoting tim wood
What does epsilon stand for there? Do you mean epsilon_0?
Quoting tim wood
epsilon_0 + 1 is countable. There is no greatest countable ordinal.
/
To keep in mind:
There are two different things: (1) a set S and (2)
where R is a well ordering of S. Strictly speaking, it doesn't make sense to say 'S is not well ordered'. Rather, strictly speaking, we would say for a given R that is not a well ordering of S that "S is not well ordered by R'. For example, strictly speaking, we would not say "The integers are not well ordered" but instead, strictly speaking, we would say "The integers are not well ordered by the standard ordering of the integers". In casual contexts, we take it for granted that we are referring to the standard orderings, so "the integers are not well ordered" is okay in that casual context. But sometimes we need to be stricter to avoid misunderstanding.
Also, strictly speaking, permutations themselves are not usually well orderings, but rather a permutation may "induce" a well ordering. A permutation is a bijection from a set onto itself. That is not usually a well ordering. In casual contexts, we benignly conflate the permutation with an ordering the permutation "induces", but sometmeise we need to be stricter to avoid misunderstanding.
/
General suggestion: It is virtually impossible to gain a clear understanding of set theory through back and forth posts. Only a textbook studied systematically starting at page 1 is likely to work.
class
set
empty set
proper class
subset
power set
union
pair
ordered pair
singleton
relation
domain
range
field
Cartesian product
converse relation
function
bijection
into
onto
permutation
reflexive relation
irreflexive relation
symmetric relation
anti-symmetric relation
asymmetric relation
transitive relation
connected
linear ordering
well ordering
epsilon transitive
ordinal
successor ordinal
limit ordinal
transfinite recursion
homomorphism
isomorphism
order-type
finite
natural number
set of natural numbers
infinite
Dedekind infinite
countable
uncountable
cardinal
cardinal addition
cardinal multiplication
cardinal exponentiation
aleph
ordinal addition
ordinal multiplication
ordinal exponentiation
recursive ordinal
epsilon_0
tuple
lexicographic ordering
One might expect Metaphysician Undercover (Unknown) to chime in with "inherent order", but he might be out of his depth.
As if that would stop him.
I emphatically disagree. I wrote my post so as to not need much background at all; pretty much the basics of infinite cardinalities as vaguely understood by the average reader of this site. Whether I was successful or not, I can't yet say. But one need not be a specialist to get the general idea of the transfinite ordinals.
Quoting Pfhorrest
Set-theoretic comedy is harder than it looks :-)
I didn't say one needs to be a specialist. Having an adequate grasp of the basic terminology doesn't require that one be a specialist. And one can get the "general idea" about ordinals, but a clear understanding includes a clear understanding the definitions of the terminology used.
That's the point.
Quoting TonesInDeepFreeze
I aspire to clear understanding myself. It's an ongoing process.
Large cardinals require additional set-theoretic axioms, correct. That's the definition of large cardinals.
Quoting tim wood
No. Everything we've discussed is provable in ZF. You don't even need the axiom of choice. There are "large ordinals" in the sense that new set-theoretic axioms are needed to prove their existence, but we haven't talked about them.
The "large countable ordinals" are ordinals for which there aren't notations, which aren't computable, and so forth. They still exist within ZF and in fact they're all countable sets. So perhaps "large countable ordinal" and "large ordinal" is misleading terminology, because they're two very different concepts.
Quoting tim wood
You keep taking successors and sups, successors and sups. [math]\epsilon_0[/math] is a limit ordinal, it's not the successor of any ordinal.
It's not easy to get your mind around [math]\epsilon_0[/math], I've been slowly developing intuition for it and still have a ways to go. It's the limit of the ordinals [math]\omega[/math], [math]\omega^\omega[/math], [math]\omega^{\omega^{\omega}}[/math], [math]\omega^{\omega^{{\omega^\omega}}}[/math], etc. Not easy to comprehend. These are all countable, no new axioms are required to construct them.
Even [math]\omega_1[/math], the first uncountable ordinal, exists in ZF with no choice needed.
I'm wondering if you feel like you have gotten any of your original questions answered yet, and if this thread has helped put the video you saw into context.
To put it into context, it takes a long time to get one's mind around even the basics of the ordinals. If you think of my article as kind of a high-level tourist flight, perhaps that's more helpful. Maybe appreciate a little here and a little there.
So the main thing is that you originally had some questions about the subject based on video you saw. If you have specific questions, perhaps I can answer them.
Also I wonder if you can point me to the video. I'm curious if it's a good vid explained badly or a bad vid explained well, and maybe I'll learn something.
Quoting tim wood
It is very strange. The countably ordinals are massively strange, the strangest mathematical structure I know. I looked up proofs that [math]\epsilon_0[/math] is countable and I'm not sure I understand them. That's the next thing for me to learn. [math]\epsilon_0[/math] is my own personal favorite number. I still have a very limited understanding of it.
Quoting tim wood
[math]\omega[/math] is [math]\mathbb N[/math] in its usual order.
[math]\omega + 1[/math] is [math]\mathbb N[/math] in the funny order:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, ..., 0. It's the same set of numbers, but 0 comes after everything else.
Perhaps that's the most important concept to get. The idea that we can rearrange, or permute, the elements of [math]\mathbb N[/math] to get a set with the same cardinality -- it's the same set of elements, after all -- that's also well-ordered, but that has a different order type. Because [math]\omega + 1[/math] has a largest element, and [math]\omega[/math] doesn't.
I think if we could stay here for a while and understand this one point it would be helpful. It's the heart of the whole matter, your original question of "what is a transfinite ordinal?"
The key to this whole business is to understand [math]\omega + 1[/math] as an alternate ordering of the natural numbers, one that has both a smallest and a largest element yet is the exact same set of numbers. Let's drill down there. You said you don't quite understand [math]\omega + 1[/math] so let's work on that if you're open to it. That's the key to the whole enterprise.
Quoting tim wood
They're transfinite numbers. Definitely different than plain old finite numbers or even real or complex numbers. Sort of analogous to how negative numbers were once new, and irrational numbers and then complex numbers were once new and revolutionary, and are now accepted by everyone. Transfinite numbers came out of nowhere from the mind of one person in the 1870's, and that's not very long ago in the scheme of things.
Yes, 'x is an ordinal iff x is the order-type of a well ordered set' is a theorem. From the definition of 'order-type', every order-type is an ordinal. And with a trivial proof, every ordinal is an order-type. But, just to be clear, 'x is an ordinal iff x is the order-type of a well ordered set' is not a definition of 'is an ordinal', lest we have the circularity of defining 'order-type' with 'ordinal' and 'ordinal' with 'ordinal type'.
Quoting fishfry
Not just any order relation such that every nonempty subset has a minimal member. Rather, a connective order such that every nonempty subset has a minimal member. ('connective order' might not be a usual terminology; what I mean is an order R on S such that for every x and y in S, either Rxy or Ryx.)
Quoting fishfry
Yes, but again, also because < is a connective order. Also, merely as a small note, we don't need to mention modality with 'possible'.
Quoting fishfry
Yes, but just to be clear (since we are considering contexts in which we mention also other orderings), the set of integers has no minimal element regarding the standard ordering on the integers.
Quoting fishfry
w is the order-type of
Quoting fishfry
w is not an order. w is the order-type of
Quoting fishfry
w+1 is not an order. w+1 is the order-type of
Quoting fishfry
It is not the case that the absence of choice implies that not all sets have a well-ordering. Rather, the absence of choice leaves it undecided whether all sets have a well-ordering.
Quoting fishfry
As above.
Quoting fishfry
Except the cardinality 0. The set of all sets that have a bijection with 0 is {0}.
Quoting fishfry
As you mentioned later, for any ordinal, there is the aleph indexed by that ordinal.
That is an entertaining book, but one might need to take it with a grain of salt regarding certain technical matters (I don't recall the particular matters now).
Another entertaining book about logic is William Poundstone's 'Labyrinths Of Reason'.
We should mention that limits (aka 'sups') in regard to ordinals are unions that are not successors. We need to have a good understanding of both binary union and generalized union to understand ordinals.
For clarity, I prefer to use 'permutation' in its exact mathematical meaning. A permutation is a bijection from a set onto itself. In that regard, a permutation is not an ordering. A permutation may "induce" (I don't know whether there's a more usual terminology) an ordering:
Any permutation f of a set (finite or infinite) that has a well ordering R induces a well-ordering R* as follows:
R*f(x)f(y) <-> Rxy
Quoting fishfry
Again, we need also to include mention that the order is a connective order.
Quoting fishfry
With the ordinary mathematical definition of 'permutation', the above is incorrect. As mentioned above:
Any permutation f of a set (finite or infinite) that has a well ordering R induces a well-ordering R* as follows:
R*f(x)f(y) <-> Rxy
Whatever many people may think, such books are key to understanding. But of course, a combination of books and teachers is best. In any case, in mathematics, to have a good understanding, it is crucial that the study is systematic - moving from the most basic concepts, step by step through definitions and proofs, to more complicated material.
Quoting tim wood
I take it you mean 'large cardinal' in the mathematical sense. I don't know enough about the relation of recursion and large cardinals, but I would be careful saying things like "no recursion scheme could get to them" without specifying exactly what you mean by that. In any case, the context at least requires understanding the definitions of 'large cardinal' and 'transfinite recursion'.
You are skipping the definitions:
w = the set of natural numbers
w+1 = w u {w}
Quoting tim wood
Mathematics doesn't have a separate definition of 'number' in general. Only definitions of 'number' with an adjective such as 'natural', 'rational', 'real', 'complex', 'ordinal', 'cardinal', et. al. So don't think of having to understand a concept of "is a number" onto itself.
When we say 'ordinal number', 'cardinal number', et. al, we could just as well merely say 'ordinal', 'cardinal', etc. The word 'number' is just artifact really. If 'number' is tripping you up, then forget about the word 'number'.
w = N. No matter what order.
That does not contradict that also w is the order-type of
Quoting fishfry
That is plainly incorrect.
w+1 is not N, no matter what order.
w+1 = w u {w} = N u {N}
That does not contradict that w+1 is the order-type of
Quoting fishfry
Again, w+1 is not an ordering. Rather w+1 is an ordinal, and it is the order-type of
I think fishfry addressed that. epsilon_0 is a limit ordinal, not a successor ordinal. epsilon_0 is the union of the set of ordinals of the form w^x, where x is a finite sequence of ascending 'w' exponents. That is, epsilon_0 = U{w, w^w, (w^w)^w ...}.
'successor' for ordinals is simply this, by definition:
successor of x = x u {x}.
Defintions!
My point was not that understanding definitions is sufficient, rather that understanding definitions is necessary.
Within any limit ordinal, there is no last successor. For example, w is a limit ordinal, and there is no member of w that is the last successor.
Just to be clear, in set theory, the existence of a set that has all the natural numbers as members is not proven by taking a limit or a union.
Rather, from the axiom of infinity and axiom of separation it follows that there is a unique inductive set (a set that has 0 and is closed under the successor operation) that is a subset of any inductive set. That unique set is the set of natural numbers = w.
It is important to mention this so that it does not appear as if w is conjured in some non-rigorous way as "just gather together all the numbers you get starting from 0 and adding 1".
I responded to all of your points but then thought better of it.
My challenge was to write something that would give a high-level overview of a difficult subject to casual readers without much math background. Necessarily not everything was perfectly pedantic. So you missed that point entirely.
A number of your statements were flat out wrong, such as claiming that a bijection of a well-ordered set to itself is necessarily another well-order. I had already given the counterexample of the naturals and the integers.
It's just not worth getting into it with you. Your several posts to me seemed not just pedantic, but petty, petulant, and often materially wrong. You either misunderstood the pedagogy or the math itself, often both at the same time. It's just like what you wrote a few days ago, giving a long list of topics to be studied before one can read my article, including a year's worth of abstract algebra. The challenge is to write something that can be read by casual readers WITHOUT any mathematical prerequisites. You don't seem to understand that. You might try it yourself, it's harder than it looks.
I have to tell you your post left me with a bad taste. You seem to just want to throw rocks, but you couldn't even find pebbles, so you threw grains of sand. I hope you got something out of it.
But to give a specific example just so you understand what I'm talking about, let me take your opening remark here:
"Yes, 'x is an ordinal iff x is the order-type of a well ordered set' is a theorem." followed by some picky complaint.
I led with "x is an ordinal iff x is the order-type of a well ordered set" because that's something that I can explain to a casual audience in a couple of paragraphs.
Whereas if I go with the standard textbook definition, "An ordinal is a transitive set well-ordered by [math]\in[/math], that would be immune from your petty criticism, but it would lose the entire audience immediately and never get it back. That's why I deliberately, and with thought and consideration, chose the formulation I did. You might give this point some thought. That the idea isn't to be technically pristine; but rather to choose formulations that have a hope of getting through to a casual audience. This entire concept of being understandable to a casual audience went completely over your head.
Likewise your persistent complaint that I omitted the fact that I am talking about total orders (which you called "connected" for reasons I didn't understand). Of course I did. That was a deliberate choice. One of my earlier drafts had a long, boring exposition of order theory, including partial orders, and then I just deleted it and decided to implicitly assume total orders to make the exposition more readable.This never occurred to you, you just kept harping on the point. If you would take a moment to ask yourself, "How would I explain ordinal numbers in a fair amount of depth to a casual audience," you might come to understand some of the tradeoffs involved.
No, I got your point that your posts are meant only as an overview. But that doesn't entail that I can't mention clarifications and some more exact formulations myself.
Quoting fishfry
If they are, then I'm happy to correct them.
Quoting fishfry
I specifically said the permutation is not a well-ordering. What is a well-ordering is the ordering induced. Again:
If R is a well ordering on S, and f is permutation of S, then R* is a well ordering on S as R* is defined by:
R*f(x)f(y) <-> Rxy
Clearly, by basic set theory, R* is a well ordering on S. (Indeed,
is isomorphic with.).
I have no idea why you would deny that.
Quoting fishfry
Whatever you said about the naturals and integers couldn't refute the theorem I just mentioned above.
Quoting fishfry
There is good reason for the various points I mentioned - they keep things clear, not merely pedantic. 'petulant' is psychologizing that happens to be incorrect. And I am happy to correct any errors I wrote.
Quoting fishfry
I don't claim to be pedagogically expert. I posted to clarify certain points and to keep my mind focused a little bit on math occasionally.
Quoting fishfry
I said no such thing that your post couldn't or shouldn't be read without first studying anything. I said that a clear understanding requires understanding certain definitions. That does not preclude that one can first read your post then go on to learn the definitions. You are reading into what I wrote things that I did not write.
Quoting fishfry
That's fine; I didn't write anything that begrudges you from doing that.
Quoting fishfry
It wasn't a complaint. I merely wished to add a clarification, as I said "just to be clear" that the theorem you mentioned doesn't happen to be the definition. That is relevant as someone might misconstrue that it was intended as a definition.
Quoting fishfry
That's fine, and I didn't fault you for it. I merely added a point of clarification.
I didn't complain. I merely added the information.
And I used 'connective' in line with the notion of a connected relation.
Quoting fishfry
I don't begrudge you striving for readability. I just wanted to add the point of clarification, which I I did by saying if x not equal y then either Rxy or Ryx. (The reason I used 'connective' rather than connected is that I wasn't clear in the moment whether 'connected' is an adjective applied to relations or to the set that the relation is on. No harm though, as I mentioned that 'connective' might be ersatz and so I defined it explitiy). If you wish to leave certain things as implicit in your own posting, then that should not preclude me from making them explicit.
Quoting fishfry
I think of tradeoffs virtually every time I post, since in such a cursory context of posting, I too have to take shortcuts. The fact that I added clarifications and information doesn't entail that I don't understand that an overview can't cover every technicality.
I appreciate your corrections, some of which were on point and some, in my opinion, perhaps not. If I was too sensitive when I read your criticisms, I'll try to grow a thicker skin. Honestly I don't know how people write books, then sit back while critics throw rocks. I could never take it. Actors too.
I prefer not to engage on each point you raised, because the back-and-forth would get in the way of the overall intent of the thread, which is to introduce the ordinals to a casual audience.
Quoting TonesInDeepFreeze
That's certainly fair, and it was uncharitable of me to ascribe ignoble motives to you.
Thanks for your comments.
Quoting TonesInDeepFreeze
You're right, I was defensive today. I was going to write "uncharacteristically" defensive but of course that would be a lie :-)
I looked this up, evidently connected relationship is another word for a total relationship. "Today I learned."