Have You Had An Out-of-Body-Experience?
As the title asks. If so, what was your experience like? How did you interpret it?
I read Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe awhile ago, and am in the middle of Far Journeys right now. "Total mind fuck" does not begin to describe this read.
I've had sleep paralysis my whole life and am very familiar with the "vibrational state" that seems to be the beginning stage of an OOBE. Last night, I think I got "partly out" of body; I woke up in the middle of the night, the vibrations came on strongly, and rather than panic, I relaxed into them and felt them rise to a higher frequency until I felt my legs begin to float.
I know @Sam26 has studied NDEs extensively, which also interests me, but I'm more interested in the possibility of having experiences during life and being able to learn from them.
Thoughts?
I read Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe awhile ago, and am in the middle of Far Journeys right now. "Total mind fuck" does not begin to describe this read.
I've had sleep paralysis my whole life and am very familiar with the "vibrational state" that seems to be the beginning stage of an OOBE. Last night, I think I got "partly out" of body; I woke up in the middle of the night, the vibrations came on strongly, and rather than panic, I relaxed into them and felt them rise to a higher frequency until I felt my legs begin to float.
I know @Sam26 has studied NDEs extensively, which also interests me, but I'm more interested in the possibility of having experiences during life and being able to learn from them.
Thoughts?
Comments (81)
I haven't had the specific experience you mentioned. But I do have a great interest in this phenomenon.
I think it is related to dreaming,especially lucid dreaming,remote viewing and being in the zone.
Psilocybin.
Peyote.
Ayahuasca.
LSD.
(Caveat: mindset & setting are paramount.)
"OBE"? More like out of ordinary states of mind (OOSM). Bodily-awareness – proprioceptive experience – very strongly correlates with an ordinary state of mind (OSM), so the psychoactives listed above (all of which I'd repeatedly indulged decades ago) induce suppression of bodily-awareness and thus "OBE". This can also happen while dreaming. And to recall (pace Plato) these non-ordinary states of mind (nOSM) – I don't think of them as "experiences" any more than I think of (day)dreams as "experiences" – has helped, or provoked, me to learn how to deliberately (reflectively) suspend the ego (StE) in various ways – contemplation, meditation, prayer, play & sleep – I term ecstatic techniques. (However I no longer meditate or pray.)
So, for me, psychoactive-induced OOSM aka "OBE" had showed me that, without psychoactives, StE is not only possible to self-induce but more preferable and more holistic. As far as I've discerned, the (intrinsic) benefit of intermitten StE has been gradually gaining a non-egoic understanding of others' lives and one's life, livelihoods and life-worlds.
I've wondered about the connection between psychedelics and OOBEs as well, but I don't begin by assuming they're the same experience (seems like the right word to me).
Do you have any thoughts on organic OOBEs, rather than drug-induced states, as that's what the thread is about? I assume you haven't had one from what you're saying?
Quoting 180 Proof
This I can get down with.
I wonder about the connection between dreaming in general, as well as lucid dreaming, with OOBE's as well, but as above with 180, I'm not beginning with any assumption that they are the same experience. They could be, but I'm not assuming anything. What seems to delineate OOBEs from dreaming (and perhaps from psychedelics, @180 Proof?) is the retention of full conscious awareness.
Remote viewing I haven't read up on as much, but it does seem to be connected with certain types of OOBEs.
How can they not be "organic" given that we are "organic"? Besides, "OOBEs" are illusions better described as nOSM, also occurring during dream sleep and other ecstacies which I've pointed out previously. Psychactive drugs are not needed though they are helpful as, for want of a better analogy, 'training wheels'.
Have you ever imagined something in the day or day dreamt at length?
This phenomenon is related. Its about focusing on a certain facet of life that we need to.
Meditation throws up these visions and travels,as can entheogens.
These visions and episodes have a personal meaning.
By organic I mean not induced by any foreign substance.
Quoting 180 Proof
Can you make an argument for this rather than an assertion?
Your first post just equates naturally occurring OOBEs with psychedelics without an argument as to what makes naturally occurring OOBEs an illusion, or why you equate them with psychedelics.
Quoting 180 Proof
Quoting 180 Proof
It's possible I misread you, but your distracting use of text formatting and convoluted sentence structures do not do you any favors.
Quoting 180 Proof
So are you saying your use of psychoactive drugs showed you that it's better to have what you label StE without the use of psychoactives? and if so, are you then referring to this list you made:
Quoting 180 Proof
Which you then define as "ecstatic techniques"? Or are you referring to naturally occurring OOBEs that are induced simply by learning a method such as found in Monroe's book? Can you see how confusing your post is?
Sure, I think all forms of consciousness that are a departure from everyday waking life are most likely related in some way. I'm just specifically interested in naturally occurring OOBEs as discussed in books by Monroe and others.
Quoting Protagoras
I agree.
There are meditation techniques to help induce OBEs,maybe Monroes book has some techniques he recommends.
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
I don't ask for quick reading or spoon feeding, I just prefer clear writing, especially when writing about complex ideas.
So now on to the topic of the thread: do you have any thoughts about supposed naturally occurring OOBEs as reported and written about by Robert Monroe and others? If not, that's fine too.
His techniques mirror some meditation techniques in some ways I think, yes. The difference might be the setting; a sitting position for a lot of meditation techniques vs. the brink of the sleep state for Monroe and other OOBE practitioners.
Yep,my bad. Of course a lot of people might like the brink of sleep state and lying down meditating.
With that said,sitting or even moving meditation can help as well. Depends on the person really.
For sure; I've definitely had what I would call meditative experiences while walking.
Perhaps they put up with it. :wink:
Walking is a great meditation.
As can be any activity if one focuses on it.
You could try to induce an OBE whilst walking.
I know of a successful OBE from focusing whilst sitting on a sofa.
Was this your experience or someone else's?
My Wife's.
I'm not questioning your intelligence or knowledge, but you would have received a D at best in the honors English course I took in college. I don't mean that as an insult, it's just a simple fact.
I'd be curious to hear any details, but no pressure.
We both practice meditation in numerous different ways.
In the period mentioned we both talked a lot about astral projection and practiced a lot.
Then after a while Wifey began to be able to project when she Focused and suceeded to OBE whilst awake.
I will also clarify,astral projection is also a kind of OBE,and if so we both were able to do this regularly.
Yeah, my understanding is that astral projection and OOBE are terms for the same experience, but I guess there's not necessarily a way to substantiate that. Monroe specifically states that he avoided the term astral projection in order to minimize occult connotations.
So you have had an OOBE? Or rather, you've astral projected but distinguish the two in your mind?
I've never really looked at my astral projecting as an OBE,because that term normally refers to an experience of vibrating and seemingly happening to one whilst awake rather than consciously projecting.
But,on closer inspection through talking with you here,how much of a distinction is there really?
Mainly I don't consider a person actually leaves their body literally but just projects themselves from within the body.
I'm not sure.
Quoting Protagoras
Yeah, the metaphysics of this are unclear, and can't really be demonstrated in any substantial way, I don't think. Your perception of your experience seems to be what makes it so, if that makes sense. I don't think there's really a vantage point that can be taken to definitively make the distinction one way or another.
To be honest this leads to the notion of extended conciousness. Beyond the body.
Which is something I have experienced in a heightened fashion many many times.
I'm getting a bit confused about your experiences and stances here; so you have astral projected, but you consider it to not be "out of body", but you have had an experience of "extended consciousness beyond the body"? But that was not an astral projection to you?
Its all astral projection.
The projection is out of the body but I'm still in the body.
Those who claim out of the body should clarify that they haven't left the body totally,their awareness has just extended and projected themselves in the form of an image. Just like remote viewing.
If you left your body you would die.
Hope that's clearer.
That's clearer, yes, with the caveat that it's not quite discussed that way in the OOBE "community", if you will, at least to my understanding. There is a more explicit belief that "you" are leaving your physical body; so there is a equation of "you" with the non-physical. You're still connected to your physical form, but you are leaving it. I'm not saying I think this is true or not, just making the distinction. But it does open a potential can of worms.
Btw, I'd gotten full college credit for the Advanced Placement English I took in high school, friend, and I've been a paralegal & copy editor for decades. It's not that my writing is unclear but that your reading comprehension is rudimentary or that you're just a skimmer (casual reader). You seemed to get the gist of what I wrote after I prompted you to apply yourself to rereading what you'd only skimmed. My advice to you is, for what it's worth, don't reply to anything that you find challenging to read.
Yes,I've never really liked the term OOBE for the reasons you have stated.
I think when it gets into a community or organisation that's when I generally go my own way.
But the actual phenomenon is experiencable and there are many reports of people entering the dreams of others or conversing with each other from miles away,either by imagery and voice,or voice or feelings alone.
I do the same, I'm just exploring what if any evidence there is that they are the same experiences, or related "versions" of the same. This territory starts to get pretty swampy the further in you get; sometimes trying to set definitions only compounds the problem.
I've listened to Graham Nicholls on YouTube and munroe and others on YouTube and it seems they are talking about the same thing near enough.
As you said its when definitions and rigid metaphysics sets in that the issue gets a bit opaque.
I just bung out
the nonsense and get on with it to be honest.
Practice and meditation is key.
I've had limited success in StE (I think of it as DMN suppression) via meditation and would try psychedelics if it ever becomes less difficult to access. Psilocybin seems like it might be on the road to limited legalization.
You mention mindset & setting, and I know that's important from what I've learned of psychedelics. Did you have guided trips or otherwise try to properly set the stage?
Quoting 180 Proof
Perhaps you deliberately write in a less accessible fashion to help screen the riffraff. Usually works in my case. :sweat:
At the same time though, I'm not sure how this is avoidable. We each have a metaphysical lens through which we view these experiences.
I'd be curious to hear details on your experiences, but recognize it's personal, so no pressure.
One can just practice and experience the phenomenon,and vocalise the metaphysics later.
What kind of details are you interested in, the practical preparation or the actual experience?
I wonder if one's pre-existing metaphysics will influence the subjective experience itself, though.
Quoting Protagoras
Both, but more so the actual experience.
I think if you just focus and have faith in your ability to project that will be enough. Unless you have some metaphysics or beliefs you are bringing to the table?
The practice is a combination of intense desire to communicate through projection and consistent effort.
You can visualise a task or verbalise a task or even just focus on breathing to accomplish a task. The task being projecting to a certain person or place.
The experience Is brilliant,communicating with a loved one from a distance is great.
It's like dreaming of something you really like,but doing it fully awake and by your will.
One caveat,is that not every time will be perfect,it takes practice. And sometimes you might have unpleasant experiences,even a little frightening.
:up: Yeeeees.
Not for my first year or two indulging (experimenting), then I began guiding others as we tripped. That lasted for a while until I returned to solo tripping. By then, in my last couple of years of psychoactive exploration, I think I'd mastered 'mindset and setting' which made my trips less frequent though higher-deeper and more reliably so.
I'm suggesting that we all do automatically.
Well,the prime thing is you must be determined enough to believe and practice with intense desire.
Only if your metaphysics disbelieves in the possibility of projection could there be a problem.
So you deliberately write in an obfuscating manner and when asked to clarify, demand to be re-read in order to screen out people who demand better writing? :rofl:
Right, and so belief (which includes a metaphysic?) seems to be a pre-requisite, at least to me.
Well the belief that you can make it happen is all that is needed. Are you regarding belief as a metaphysics?
No, sorry, I'm just suggesting that your beliefs in general (including your metaphysical beliefs) could potentially influence the experience itself. I've read reports of OOBEs that suggest this; I'm not saying that I'm predisposed to agreeing with that, or that I believe it myself.
But yes, it does seem like a belief in being able to do it is needed, I agree there. Although in my case, I had sleep paralysis long before I had any belief about my ability to experience consciousness outside the body.
I have heard of people with religious beliefs opposed to projection who experienced these things when in a very emotional situation, but not being able to experience these things as a practice.
Sleep paralysis is a very emotional experience and triggered due to trauma,sometimes from childhood.
In some situations belief matters not. But for sustained practice it does.
A lot of religious or materialistic atheists can't do this at will because of limiting beliefs.
Belief is key.
I assume in good faith you didn't add that addendum you quote here to your post above in order to make it look like I ignored it. :wink: (although for clarity, you could have just asked it as a new question, rather than quoting your own edit of your own post).
As to your questions, if you re-read my exchange with Protagoras, you might get a sense. :razz:
I don't think that obfuscating is a fair characterization. A more accurate general characterization would be something like dense.
I agree with you.
If dense is a better word, I would amend it to "needlessly dense".
I have definitely had what appeared to be out of body experiences on a number of occasions, most often on the borderline of sleep. I can remember one in which I was flying around the room, and knowing that my body is lying on the bed.
The philosophy question which remains for me is whether such states are really what they appear to be, and supporting the idea of dualism, or whether they are illusory? I am aware that states of this are more likely to occur for me if I am under a lot of stress, have a raised temperature, or have not had much to eat and sleep.
If I recall correctly, in the book How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, in regards to mindset it’s important to be ‘open’, no matter how unpleasant or terrifying the trip may turn. Is that your experience or do you have any other tips?
I think that the idea of of hallucinogenic trips is important. One of my 2 LSD trips included me looking into the mirror and seeing the wall around me and the radiator. I was simply not there at all which lead me to think that I was out of my body
Huxley describes psychedelic experience with reference to Bergson's idea of 'mind as a reducing valve' and this is one possible interpretation, but I am sure that it is not absolute, and so many questions arise in connection to the way we think about the mind, in terms of altered states of consciousness.
How "conscious" would you say you were? I guess that question leads into your next paragraph.
Quoting Jack Cummins
If the out of body state is "what it appears to be", I don't think this necessitates a hard dualism.
I have experienced many out of body experiences, and that makes it difficult to generalise. I am probably not in the position of thinking purely about how hard my own dualism would be.I have only begun to think about these experiences relation to the issue of dualism since using this site.
I am not entirely clear about the purpose of your thread, whether it is about looking at the experiences themselves or what it means. I think that both are probably important.
Both! This thread is in the lounge; it's just about all things OOBE. You say you've had many, so I'm all ears to hear about the details, your interpretations, your philosophical interpretations of them...whatever, if anything, you're comfortable sharing.
@Noble Dust Quoting 180 Proof
I'm not sure why you're so curious, but my ontology isn't a closed system; I leave room for the possibility of consciousness not being confined to the physical.
No, it was your use of text formatting and jumbled sentence structure.
I keep saying this to everyone who responds in the affirmative, but I would love to hear more...but I also recognize how personal these experiences can be, so I don't want to pressure you. Castaneda I'm familiar with, although I've read that he was accused of being some sort of fraud; about what exactly I don't remember.
On that first experience I also thought, "this is how religion began."
It seemed one becomes an embodiment of pure will or intent.
This is the kind of response that gets me excited; what you say here closely mirrors the experiences of OOBE folks like Robert Monroe and William Buhlman (who I like less as he's a bit new age-y). It's so fascinating that different people in different times, unbeknownst to each other, seem to accidentally discover ways to induce these experiences, and they appear to be the same experiences.
Monroe, for instance, distinguishes between the "second body", which is close to the physical, and generally experiences things in a physical-esque manner, and a "third body" which is capable of having what you describe as "bizarre escapades far removed".
Interesting.
I think that the idea of the shamanic journey is so interesting. The shaman is the archetypal healer, who voyages to the lower and upper world. What I think is so important here is that it gives a wider framework for considering the 'out of body experiences'. It is not just an experience for its own sake, but can be seen as part of the healing of fragmentation of the individual and the shaman is able to bring healing for others as well..
Healing perhaps though from what I understand the problem isn't fragmentation but deep conditioning, and the shaman (and whatever's in their bag of tricks) essentially 'depatterns' that problematic conditioning.
What I found interesting is that my state of conscious awareness was what I would describe as fully awake during the vibrational lift-out stage, and during the re-entry stage. In between, during the "out of body" portion, I would describe my awareness as somewhere between normal waking awareness and a dreaming state. It was not a dream, but I was in a hazy condition; maybe inexperience. Interestingly, I immediately fell asleep after "re-entry" and had a dream, so the difference between these apparently three different states are very clear in my memory. Over all, my "out of body" sense of sight was fairly obscure; I'm wondering if this can improve over time.
I'm curious to compare any notes with anyone who's had one of these experiences.
Quoting Noble Dust
Quoting Noble Dust