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The world is the totality of facts, not of things.

Shawn June 26, 2021 at 21:54 3275 views 10 comments
“I want you to realize that when I speak of a fact I do not mean a particular
existing thing, such as Socrates or the rain or the sun. Socrates himself does not
render any statement true or false. What I call a fact is the sort of thing that
is expressed by a whole sentence, not by a single name like ‘Socrates.’ . . .We
express a fact, for example, when we say that a certain thing has a certain
property, or that it has a certain relation to another thing; but the thing which
has the property or the relation is not what I call a ‘fact.”’

If the essence of the first proposition of the Tractatus is of relations between objects, further describable (which already is a contested issue) as facts, then what does Russell mean by these relations?

Comments (10)

Wheatley June 26, 2021 at 22:06 #557219
Quoting Shawn
“I want you to realize that when I speak of a fact I do not mean a particular
existing thing, such as Socrates or the rain or the sun. Socrates himself does not
render any statement true or false. What I call a fact is the sort of thing that
is expressed by a whole sentence, not by a single name like ‘Socrates.’ . . .We
express a fact, for example, when we say that a certain thing has a certain
property, or that it has a certain relation to another thing; but the thing which
has the property or the relation is not what I call a ‘fact.”’ Citation

If the essence of the first proposition of the Tractatus is of relations between objects, further describable (which already is a contested issue) as facts, then what does Russell mean by these relations?

B1: Who's said this?

B2: Who's the author of the Tractatus?

B3: Do you mean Bertrand Russel?
magritte June 26, 2021 at 22:36 #557229
Quoting Shawn
We
express a fact, for example, when we say that a certain thing has a certain
property, or that it has a certain relation to another thing


Do you agree that facts are what we say about a certain property or a certain relation?
Banno June 26, 2021 at 22:38 #557230
Reply to magritte Well, no.

A fact is what we say, when what we say is true. If it ain't true, it ain't a fact.
magritte June 26, 2021 at 22:49 #557233
Reply to Banno So then by Quoting Shawn
when I speak of a fact I do not mean a particular existing thing
W specifically means himself only by "I" because facts are truths?

Banno June 26, 2021 at 23:01 #557237
Reply to magritte Lets first get clear that the long quote is from Russell's Logical Atomism and the aphorism is the first line of Wittgenstein's Tractatus.

Quoting magritte
W specifically means himself only by "I" because facts are truths?


Presumably you meant Russell? He is simply setting out how he intends to use the word "fact".

You don't think truths are somehow private, do you?
magritte June 26, 2021 at 23:19 #557250
For the moment, your truths are my truths. I'm willing to go along with whatever might help me disentangle my confusion.

Quoting Banno
He is simply setting out how he intends to use the word "fact".


Is he then replacing the usual real objects with whatever facts about those objects he postulates to be true or must others (everyone?) also agree that his facts are true? How far out on a limb must he climb?

Shawn June 27, 2021 at 00:42 #557324
Quoting magritte
Do you agree that facts are what we say about a certain property or a certain relation?


Yes, I think so.
Banno June 27, 2021 at 00:48 #557327
Reply to magritte Reply to Shawn

The Moon is not a fact.

That the Moon orbits the Earth is a fact.

That "The Moon orbits the Earth" is true is also a fact.

Oddly, that the moon orbits the Earth, and that "The Moon orbits the Earth" is true, are each going to be true only if the other is also true. They are equivalent.

Also note, that the Moon orbits the Earth is true regardless of what Russell or Magritte think or say.
Shawn June 27, 2021 at 01:04 #557339
Reply to Banno

Relations are usually causal and evident. The fact that the moon orbits the Earth is governed by the fact that the laws of physics determine it being so. Not, yet ready to talk about logical space, just yet.

magritte June 27, 2021 at 01:10 #557342
Reply to Banno

Scientific facts would work because they are grounded in current physics. Is that enough?