Do we really fear death?
Generally it seems to be the case that people are too busy doing other things than to bother to figure out how they are going to keep doing things forever. But if life is considered to be the greatest gift, then why are so many of us ignoring the looming erasure? Could it be that we do not actually truly believe that life is good?
If we truly feared death, then we would all be focused on figuring out how to stop it from happening. Yet most of us are involved in no such work, and simply take it as a given that we will die someday, and that this is out of control (how do we know it is out of control?). Some of us even make decisions that make it more likely that we will die sooner.
So why is death so commonly seen as one of the greatest evils that can be brought down upon someone?
I think instead of being afraid of dying, we are actually afraid of the way we will die. Death is a beneficial thing for everyone (as it relieves one of a burdensome existence), and I think most people actually look forward to the day in which they are released from the world. What troubles them is how it will happen, when it will occur, how painful it will be, etc. This is why there are oncologists, but not immortalogists.
Of course when put into a life-threatening situation, you will run away from the danger instinctively. So perhaps the fear of death, if it exists, is merely an instinct that a rational mind cannot usually fully overcome, except in extraordinary circumstances.
If we truly feared death, then we would all be focused on figuring out how to stop it from happening. Yet most of us are involved in no such work, and simply take it as a given that we will die someday, and that this is out of control (how do we know it is out of control?). Some of us even make decisions that make it more likely that we will die sooner.
So why is death so commonly seen as one of the greatest evils that can be brought down upon someone?
I think instead of being afraid of dying, we are actually afraid of the way we will die. Death is a beneficial thing for everyone (as it relieves one of a burdensome existence), and I think most people actually look forward to the day in which they are released from the world. What troubles them is how it will happen, when it will occur, how painful it will be, etc. This is why there are oncologists, but not immortalogists.
Of course when put into a life-threatening situation, you will run away from the danger instinctively. So perhaps the fear of death, if it exists, is merely an instinct that a rational mind cannot usually fully overcome, except in extraordinary circumstances.
Comments (70)
If Solanas is correct to say that aging and death can be solved (or at least postponed a great deal), why is it that we are not more focused on solving it?
And, indeed we truly fear it. Look at the effects of the industrial revolution on increasing the human lifespan in Western democracies.
@180 Proof knows for a fact that trees 'inherently fear' the cessation of their being.
I'm 69. I'm not ignoring my death as it get's inevitably closer, but I'm very likely to die within the next 20 years. I'm leading a pretty good life. I love my family and most of them love me. My children are people I like and respect and they like and respect me. I'm retired so I can pretty much do as I want as long as I'm not excessive, which my wife and I are not by nature. I can swim at the YMCA every day if I want.
As Woody Allen said, "I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens." I don't want to live forever. 100,000,000,000 people have died since homo sapiens got started. That's 10,000 generations give or take. Grandparents, parents, children, grand children over and over 2,500 times. My great grandmother, who was still alive when I was a baby was a baby during the US Civil War. Dying is one of the most human things we can do.
:fire:
I don't think so.
What I am afraid about is the effect that my death will have on other people's lives, like my children, and of course what I would be missing out if I died now. All the happy events, the memorable situations, the exiting moments that life has to offer.
My mother died when I was a teen. It sucked. I wouldn't want my children to lose their father at a young age, it really creates a void. At least now they will surely remember me. I would have liked to have had my mother for longer. She would have surely loved her grandchildren. And I've seen how much sorrow and sadness there is when parents lose their child. It really is the case that children should bury their parents, not the other way around. If you have parents that love you, think about how they would feel if you die.
At older age some are ready to die. They have seen their friends or their loved ones died and have not much to do, especially if they are sick. For many people it's actually a relief.
If you have nobody, absolutely nobody in this World that cares about you or for whom you are important, then perhaps the only thing that you might be afraid of death is the pain or the way you go. The World will hardly notice your departure.
Death is preferable to many living conditions, without a doubt. Sickness especially, I once had such painful larengitis that I constantly thought about how death would be a relief. In fact, I will go so far as to say: suicide is absolutely unjustifiable, but I imagine that the best excuse for it would be physical pain.
To digress, I find the contrast between modern euthanasia and ancient/classic euthanasia to be interesting. Modern euthanasia is concerned with averting pain and discomfort, eg. being put to sleep while suffering from terminal cancer. In contrast, the traditional form is concerned with dying in an honorable way, eg. falling in battle for the flag.
I shook hands with a man who shook hands with a man who knew Oscar Wilde. It doesn't take long for eras and folk to come and go. The only people I've known who fear death are Christians who did nasty things when younger. Fear of judgement after death is still a thing.
Quoting Merkwurdichliebe
Not sure what rule book you've pulled that notion from but for me suicide is a right and a lovely idea in the right set of circumstances.
Awww. :hearts:
Sounds like a reasonable assumption to me.
If, as Plato and other philosophers claim, we really are a non-physical entity called "soul" and, in particular, if we accept the theory of reincarnation, also referred to by Plato and others, then it stands to reason to believe that a part of us, at least, looks forward to dying, i.e., to separating itself from the mortal body and the physical world, and return to a brighter and happier existence on a different, higher plane.
At the same time, another part of us, that is more closely connected with the physical body and the imaginative-emotional aspect of our being, is ignorant or forgetful of our true origin and destiny, and produces in us a fear of death, i.e., a fear of the unknown and associated potentiality for suffering.
On reflection, of course, if there is no life after death we have nothing to fear. And, if there is, we have everything to gain. Unless we have engaged in actions that lead us to believe that we may be subject to judgement and punishment in the other world. In which case it would boil down to a secret fear of punishment.
How do you imagine this "nothing"?
Is it like floating in a dark and silent room? Seeing and hearing nothing forever?
A very terrible idea.
Good question. It is hard to imagine, I think.
In some traditions, it is common practice to imagine oneself as a dead and decomposing body eaten by worms, etc. The problem with this is that a dead body, of course, is unlikely to experience itself in quite the same way we visualize it whilst living.
Maybe we find it so hard to imagine because it is outside normal experience. Or because something within us not only believes but actually knows that death is not the end ....
I often like to think that I am not afraid of death, and the worst form of death I can imagine is suicide. That is because it would be a life ended in despair and I have known several people who have committed suicide. As far as fear of death is concerned, any of us could die suddenly, such as getting knocked over by a car, but, for most of us, death is not imminent.
So, I do wonder how different it is when one knows that one is likely to die very soon. Even though I may say, with some bravado, that I am not afraid of death, if I was told that I was terminally ill, I wonder if my attitude would change, and I wonder if I would become extremely afraid. I am not sure whether the fear would entail existential anxiety about unresolved questioning about life after death, fear of ceasing to exist, or any others. What I am trying to say is that we may not know really whether we fear death until it looms before us in an immediate way.
What we should be really doing is try and discover what death fears. That sounds like a great idea, right?
I know what death fears!
Math, geometric progression or the number 2 as relates to cell division.
Once there was 1 cell. Death said, "no problem. just one small accident and life's done for." Then the 1 cell divides and now there are 2 cells. Death (slightly dismayed), "WTF? There are two of them! No problemo! I can handle 2". A few moments later, each of the two cells divide and now 4 cells. Death (distressed), "4! Let me see...I'll take care of that one first, then that one..." After some time, each of the 4 cells divide and now 8 cells. Death, "What's going on here? I thought there were only 4." Before Death can come up with a plan to off the 8 cells, 8 becomes 16, 16 becomes 32, so and so forth until there are billions and billions, trillions, quintillions, sextillions of cells, dividing non-stop. Death, :fear: :fear: :fear:
[quote=Sherlock Holmes]It's elementary my dear Watson. Death fears geometric progressions.[/quote]
[quote=Dr. Watson]What about cancer, Sherlock?[/quote]
[quote=Sherlock Holmes]Double-edged sword, Watson! Double-edged sword![/quote]
You don't fear death? Why? Perhaps you mean there's somebody you know who doesn't fear death. Again, why?
It won't notice even if you are lucky enough to have a few people care about you.
Don't talk about pain. Pain is the true prophet, not sleep like @180 Proof thinks, of death! Pain exists to keep death at bay - a stitch in time saves nine kinda deal.
Also, not to denigrate the suffering of those who suicide, I feel the idea of, "there are some things (pain/suffering) worse things than death" is more nuanced than appears at first glance. We might need to make the fine distinction between "no fear (of death)" and "lesser (fear of death)". The former is absolute (rare/nonexistent) and the latter is relative (quite common/suicide).
So? You say it as if that's wrong.
Quoting tim wood
Those are waypoints we've already crossed. I'm disinclined to return to ground already covered. Sorry.
Quoting tim wood
I'm employing conventional terms, part of the vernacular. I don't understand your objections. I haven't resorted to coining new words in which case I'd be obliged to clarify them.
A "prophet" heralds the coming of his god(dess) and does not "keep her at bay". Sleep, not "pain", is a glimpse, a reheasal or reminder, a nightly practiced welcoming of Death; "pain" merely signals proximity to one's demise which almost always one involuntarily retreats from – in other words, "pain" is the demon tormenting one to temptations of painlessness like a prophet of the devil Life (à la gnosis).
I think this is a very good point. It seems as though, while people may fear death, it is usually remote enough for them to ignore it, and even pretend that it does not exist. Death may be something people fear, but it is not the only thing they fear either.
Quoting Merkwurdichliebe
:up: Indeed, I find that to be one of the most memorable sayings of Socrates.
Quoting Apollodorus
Partly agree. If there is torment to be found after your death, that does not necessarily mean you are being punished. For all you know, the life you are living is a temporary lessening of the torment that may have preceded and will succeed it. As if you are drowning eternally, and life represents a brief gasp of air before you go back under. A frightening prospective, in my opinion.
Quoting tim wood
Yes, I do the same thing as well, it is a good memento mori.
I think death is oftentimes frightening if you are attached to things in the world. Viewing old films and realizing that everyone in it is dead shows that attachments are in vain.
I am reminded of Zapffe's analysis, that humans find themselves in a universe that is incapable of satisfying their spiritual needs. Humans naturally have attachments, but these attachments are temporary and will eventually vanish with death. While humans can modify the way they think about attachments (e.g. Buddhism, etc), this is ultimately not a natural state. Just as an example, I will vacillate between accepting (and even looking forward to) death, and clinging to my attachments. The ideal scenario would be to undergo something like death (so I no longer experience various burdens of life), but somehow keep in my possession the things that I care about. Which is just impossible.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I think you correct in this, similar to what @Pfhorrest said earlier. Unless death is at your doorstep, it can seem almost unreal.
One thing I think sometimes gets confused with death is aging. Even if someone like Valerie Solanas, or David Sinclaire (author of Lifespan: Why We Age – and Why We Don’t Have To), is correct that we can eliminate aging, we will never eliminate death. Everyone will eventually die.
Although aging certainly has many drawbacks, I think that one of the silver linings is that it gives a certain structure and predictability to life. People plan their lives out in accordance to how much time they roughly estimate they have. When people die "from old age", it's not really surprising, because it was expected all along. And while people do sometimes die early, it's not the norm.
If aging is eliminated, then the only way that people will die is if they suffer some traumatic accident, or they kill themselves. And unless graceful suicide services are made available to people, death will become the sudden vanishing of a person. Here one day, gone the next, with no foreshadowing. Everyone who does not commit suicide will die in a sudden traumatic accident.
I do not fear death. There are two ways this can go: A) there is nothing after death, in which case, I have nothing to fear, as that which is me will cease to exist. Or B) there is something after death, making death another transition, and therefore, outside of being unknown, has no reason to be feared. Either way, not worth being afraid of.
My official stand, should anyone be interested, is option two. Another transition.
It is one of the mysterious events in life. No one seems wanting to face or talk about it. Only Philosophy can deal with it logically and intellectually. The upshot seems, ignore it, accept it or deny or try to avoid it. It is a personal choice.
Do we really fear death? Yes, we do. But they soon realise that fear will not deal with the problem, hence they take the philosophical stance or turn to religion.
But most of them seem just taken away into the dark abyss of death, when it strikes, without even the perceptual and emotional embattling with the fear or knowledge.
Challenge accepted.
Then, you do fear death! By the way, this really isn't what I want to discuss. Thanks though!
:ok: Are you eager to die?
Also, how am I to tell the difference between someone who suicides (no fear of death) and you (no fear of death)? Why aren't you dead?
:rofl:
I wasn't clear enough. My bad! Pain has dual functionality - it signals injury and death (heralds death) and for that reason serves as an early warning system that can help us take preventive measures (death defense).
Ergo, I stand committed to the fact that Algea (pain) is Thanatos' prophet and not Hypnos (sleep)!
Not in the traditional sense of eager. More like anticipating with curiosity. I have a number of good reasons to continue living so while those remain, why rush the ending? I am rather happy with life and see a great deal of wonder in it. Unlike most suicides that end their life as a means to end physical or emotional pain, I really have none of that to speak of. Suicides are often afraid of death, but are more afraid of continuing on as they are currently living.
Now remove my current reasons to continue living and increase my boredom....suicide becomes a more likely option as things that keep me inclined to remain here decrease.
So, you want to live!
1. If you're not afraid to die then it doesn't matter whether you live or die.
2. If you want to live it matters whether you live or die
:chin:
There is a flaw in your assumption. Not fearing death does not mean I have no preference at this time.
I am not afraid of wearing boots either, but currently shoes make more sense, so shoes it is.
I am not afraid of death and am currently enjoying life, therefore I have preference to continue living. THAT does not equate to a fear of death, merely that I am still more inclined to living than dying at this point. The question, if you recall, was do we fear death, not do we currently prefer being alive. If I preferred death to life, I would be dead already, that I am responding means I elect to live awhile longer.
1. If you're not afraid to die then it doesn't matter whether you live or die
If 1 is flawed then, the following seems more suited to your tastes.
[b]2. If you're not afraid to die then it doesn't matter if you die.
3. If you want to live then it matters if you die.[/b]
:chin:
Persist in error as you wish. The intuition of the ancient Greeks who paired Thanatos & Hypnos as siblings speaks to me and informs my translating them as 'god-prophet' relationship in parody of the Islamic Shahada. "Pain", my friend, corresponds to life and painlessness – approximated in sleep, or coma – corresponds to death. This is the human condition, our facticity; deny it as much as you like. Remember, "pain" comes with happenstance but, ceteris paribus, sleep like death is inherently – physiologically – inevitable. :death: :flower:
Accidents are what backups are for. Frequent, widely distributed offsite backups.
Well put :clap:
:heart: Let's agree to disagree. I'd just like to share this with you without the intention to argue. Illness leads/might lead to death. The most common complaint people have when they fall is pain. Pain :point: Sick :point: Death
But since we are living death often induces fear.
Rule no. 1: The boss is always right!
You're the boss!
[quote=Thus Spoke Zarathustra]One pays a teacher badly if one always remains nothing but a pupil. And why do you not want to pluck at my wreath? You revere me; but what if your reverence tumbles one day? Beware lest a statue slay you.[/quote]
:wink:
I was reminded of a quote from one of my favorite novels, Journey to the End of the Night:
Basically, it seems to me that while people may profess that they do not wish to die, what they really mean is that they do not wish to die yet. But ultimately, everyone wants to die, everyone hopes for a pleasurable death, everyone looks forward to finally letting-go. The trouble is that dying right is tricky.
I don't mean to say that people only ever wish to die, just that in everyone resides a desire (among others) to die. This conflict of desires, of living and dying, may help explain why people simultaneously claim they do not wish to die, but yet seem to do the minimal to prevent it.
The idea that religion was invented to manage our fear of death has become a cliché, probably since Bertrand Russell wrote this about it almost 100 years ago.
“Religion is based primarily upon fear.... Fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death."
Why I am Not A Christian
I've found it interesting how many people drop their faith when dying. Having worked with people in palliative care over the years, it's also common to find people loosing interest in religious answers and theism when dying. This includes clergymen.
I think it can be the case that we fear the death of other people more than our own - children, parents, friends. In the experience of humans over millennia, death has often been sudden, premature, inexplicable and tragic. Loosing your young children was a very common experience until recent times in the West. This also leaves a cultural and psychological legacy.
My point is: you raised Ayer - that when dying some people turn to God. I was simply saying the opposite is also the case.
In death we learn nothing much.
Quoting Corvus
You make it sound like a screenplay being contrived for an umpteenth Spielberg/Hanks movie collaboration.
Just to make a point that those who are dying imminently wouldn't go out and start inventing religions. It would be those who were the livings had invented them thousands of ancient years ago, and kept passing the tradition to the generations and generations in the same field. :D
I think Ayer has converted to Christianity near his death, but when he was still in good mental state being aware of his upcoming death. He was NOT in the hospice or in death bed when that happened.
Not sure how much time you've spent in palliative care. In most cases people are mentally robust and are still quite strong. Their death might be weeks or months away and sometimes they go home for a bit and return. Most of them are well able to make decisions. Some are in denial because the decline hasn't started. Some give up in depression. Some turn to God. Some drop God.
I was caring for my dying father in the hospice for 3 months, and witnessed the dying process.
He seemed to be going through a lot of illusions, fantasies and dreams and past memories coming back to him. He was a very faithful Christian before being ill, and very active in the Church too. But a few months before his death, he was not talking about anything religious at all. He kept talking about a lot of nonsensical things, as if he was seeing some ghostly figures in front of him. His mind was gyrating between conscious to unconscious constantly. Sometimes he could not even recognise people, but sometimes he talked as if he was all OK just like he used to when he was healthy. But his mind, for sure, was slowly fading away. It was as if the whole of his bodily health condition which was failing his mind. Dying is the worst tragedy in human being. It is the saddest thing. I had been in deep mental shock and trauma for at least a year or even more after the experience of losing my father.
I suppose some people can then turn to religion for help in the situation. I, having been an agnostic most of my life, didn't get any help from anything. Then I turned to the Metaphysical topics readings, which helped to some degree, and brought me here and some other Philosophical forums (not too active).
I am still an agnostic, but thinking of taking a position of flexibilism. = taking all the sides when convenient. :D
It's just part of life but we seem it take it badly for the most part. I had a similar experience with my mother who had bone cancer. It's a cruel way to go. She stopped believing in God in the year before she died. Modern Westerners are pretty sheltered from the experience of death and give it a status it doesn't really deserve, I think.
we are all hedonists who love pleasure and fear pain
birth and death are just the beginning and end of this process
so the beginning and end of pain and pleasure
or perhaps pain and pleasure will continue after death, nobody knows forsure