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Boycotting China - sharing resources and advice

Benkei June 18, 2021 at 16:50 12250 views 97 comments
So, I want to boycott China because of Hong Kong and the Uighurs, and I've been working towards that for quite some time now. Some things I've noticed.

One, boycotting China is expensive, expect to spend at least 10% more on most things. Second, it's difficult because most companies don't fully disclose their supply chains, so you're likely to still buy Chinese goods. Third, maybe I haven't searched well, but I can't find a place where people share their leg work.

So, I'll share some things. If you're considering solar panels, Solar Watt is one of the few German manufacturers that really manufacturers in Europe.

I found an alternative water cooker at heatle.de which will be produced in Germany. Some components unfortunately are still sourced in China but it's the best I've found. Possibly some designer water cookers are produced elsewhere but I don't like paying more for a brand name.

Falmec cooker hoods are produced in Italy.

Sony phones are "made in Japan" which means that at least most of the value added activity was performed there but I think it's likely components are sourced from China. Also : fairphone.

Watch out for the CE and C E mark. The latter, with a space, stands for Conformité Européene, the former stands for China Export. Avoid the former.

See: https://support.ce-check.eu/hc/en-us/articles/360008642600-How-To-Distinguish-A-Real-CE-Mark-From-A-Fake-Chinese-Export-Mark

I'd really appreciate people adding to this, for instance, about cars or other stuff you're knowledgeable about.

@The Opposite maybe you have some practical things to add?

Comments (97)

Outlander June 18, 2021 at 16:52 #552698
As long as you don't be a Nazi not letting Asian-(whatever the hell your country is) have a right to life and liberty thus committing a global atrocity and if sanctioned by your "government" a war crime and international crisis.
Benkei June 18, 2021 at 16:53 #552699
Reply to Outlander Yeah, I'm a total Nazi. You got me.
Outlander June 18, 2021 at 16:56 #552702
Reply to Benkei

Oh it's not about me. It never was. Not really. I do like to reach out though. The government is not the same as the people however and I share your suspicions or at least concerns.
Apollodorus June 18, 2021 at 17:03 #552707
Quoting Benkei
You got me.


Me too.

But I think China has behaved despicably and should be held to account. Organizations like the China Tribunal are doing a good job exposing the Communist regime's atrocities.

But much more needs to be done. People could demonstrate outside Chinese embassies, banks, companies, phone or email them to inquire about crimes committed by the Communist Party, etc.

By the way, any ideas where we can buy stuff with "Boycott China" and similar logos?

Benkei June 18, 2021 at 17:41 #552730
Reply to Outlander I find it a bit weird though that the first association with an argument for divestment and boycott of a certain country because of human rights abuses is that with racism.

Anyhoo, in a capitalist world and in a capitalist society like the Netherlands, money is power, which is precisely why China isn't boycotted. It's become too powerful. So the only way to influence politics is diminishing China's power by diminishing its income. Our governments might be too chicken to do something about it, or shouldn't stop us from voting with cash.

The nice thing is also that countries like Germany, South Korea, Japan, etc. often have much higher quality standards for production, resulting in those extra expenses probably paying off in the long run.
Benkei June 18, 2021 at 17:41 #552731
Quoting Apollodorus
By the way, any ideas where we can buy stuff with "Boycott China" and similar logos?


No idea.
NOS4A2 June 18, 2021 at 18:01 #552757
Reply to Benkei

I’m on the same kick. I didn’t know about the C E/ CE thing. Good advice.

In Canada, we’re so wedded to the CCP that they are building a massive trade center near where I live. These efforts are a part of China’s Belt and Road initiative, which, if successful, would make CCP goods and services part of the very fabric of the global economy. I suspect it will get worse before it gets any better.
Benkei June 18, 2021 at 18:04 #552760
Reply to NOS4A2 excellent. Glad to know there's something we agree on! :up:
DingoJones June 18, 2021 at 18:30 #552784
Reply to NOS4A2

Sadly I suspect Canada is already lost. States too. We are only now seeing some more drastic changes but China has seeded the world economy for thier eventual ascension for many decades. I think we’ve already lost to whatever endgame agenda they have and just din’t know it yet.
Governments are controlled by corporations, corporations are controlled by the markets, china has a massive chunk of the market they complexly control (their people) and therefor a massive control over corporations which give them massive control over governments.
China has been playing at an advantage for many years, their hands not tied by pesky distractions like their peoples freedom or humanitarian rights or the rights of corporations to autonomy and/or intellectual property the way most of their competitors do and so have been able to expand their influence without people much noticing at all. They are far enough ahead and so successful that I think its safe to say the war is over and we’ve lost. Now we are just going through the motions of whatever new structures they decide to put in place.
Manuel June 18, 2021 at 18:46 #552794
Reply to Benkei

I'm not pro or anti China. Here it's a bit tricky to get good info, that is info that is not extremely laden with very strong ideological lenses.

So I wanted to ask, how bad is the Uigher situation? Is it actually genocidal?

And lastly, where do you get reliable info on this topic? I sometimes struggle finding info that I think is solid on this specific topic.

Sorry for the barrage of questions, it's just that I'm curious.
Benkei June 18, 2021 at 18:56 #552798
Reply to Manuel No, that's fair to ask. For me the Hong Kong situation is already enough, where they have reneged on clear promises.

Here's about intimidation of Uighurs abroad. I can confirm this is indeed happening in the Netherlands. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2020/02/china-uyghurs-abroad-living-in-fear/

Here's PBS including satellite imagery https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/

Uighur fugitive reports across various countries are the same. So we pretty much know what's going on.
Jack Cummins June 18, 2021 at 18:56 #552799
Reply to Benkei
I am concerned that at some point there will be a war between China and one of the large superpowers. But, I have thought this for a long time, and believe that it would potentially be the war which may end almost everything.

When Covid_19 broke out, and China was blamed I thought that potential war with China was a possible underlying rhetoric. So, I am rather concerned that the boycott China idea is part of this. But, I am not really sure, because I don't always know where to get reliable news, as I am sure that there is so much going on behind the scenes of news headlines and stories.
Deletedmemberph June 18, 2021 at 19:00 #552805
Reply to Benkei Why? 90% of export is from China. If you buy ecological products at least you have tastier food. Unless you have too much credit on your card of course.
Benkei June 18, 2021 at 19:10 #552813
Reply to Pretty Herds Don't pollute my thread with bullshit.
Manuel June 18, 2021 at 19:17 #552814
Reply to Benkei

Ah, fantastic political speak "vocational training schools". :roll:

The situation in Hong Kong is sad, I would've liked to have visited while it still had the social freedoms they have now lost, to a large extent.

What is most worrying to me is Taiwan. There it's very, very dangerous. And the US has to to stop being provocative, as well as China. Nuclear war is no joke.

Thanks for the sources. :up:

The Uigher situation is worse than I initially thought.
Apollodorus June 18, 2021 at 19:50 #552833
I was wandering if anyone has thought of Tibet?

Millions of Tibetans have been murdered by the Chinese regime ever since the Maoists invaded their country in 1950-51.

Should we not campaign for Tibetan independence and for China to be punished for its crimes?
Deletedmemberph June 18, 2021 at 23:16 #552957
Reply to Benkei There are 1,4 billion Chinese in China. Do you really think the Chinese government cares about you buying their products or not? Go ahead and boycot if it makes you feel better. But if you wanted to help the people of Hong Kong you should've started 2 years ago.

Look up the statistics: this whole pandemic was a phantom menace. In the meantime we've given up all our rights. We're being ruled by big corporations now, who can do whatever they want. For whoever controls the internet controls the people.

I can't pollute this thread because the whole internet is already corrupt :rage:
ChatteringMonkey June 19, 2021 at 00:02 #553035
Reply to Benkei

A Boycott only is effective if enough people join in.

People are not likely to join left to their own devices, usually they'll just buy with their wallets.

The usual ways of organising collective action runs via national political parties, which seem difficult to move at this point.

Purchase power taken as a whole however, has enormous political potential. The question is how to get enough of it on board.

Start a site and call it the 'Peoples Purchase Power Party (PPPP)' or something, with the goal of using purchase power all over the world for good causes. Keep it simple, state your goals clearly, list the obvious good causes, list the products that are being targeted etc... do the work and the research for them.

Campaign the internet for people to join purchase boycotts and finance the project. I'd say there's enough people who would would be willing to join ideologically, but still, chances seem rather slim that it works. There just isn't any organised direction at this moment, to much splintering and disinformation, and no faith in the success of such actions....

Until it maybe gets some traction, somehow, at which point people could start to join in droves. Once you have that, the sky is the limit really, you could even leverage the potential purchase power to negotiate directly with governments or companies.

Oh yeah, be sure to find ways to keep the monster under control, should you get there.
Changeling June 19, 2021 at 04:40 #553162
Quoting Benkei
The Opposite maybe you have some practical things to add?


I didn't get a notification for this for some reason...

I live quite a nomadic/frugal life not buying many products in general - so I naturally boycott Chinese goods. This may be the best method...

Quoting Benkei
Sony phones are "made in Japan" which means that at least most of the value added activity was performed there but I think it's likely components are sourced from China. Also : fairphone


I think Samsung phones are primarily made in Vietnam, although cheaper models are made in China.
Benkei June 19, 2021 at 05:47 #553175
Quoting Pretty Herds
But if you wanted to help the people of Hong Kong you should've started 2 years ago.


I did. I've donated and wrote Dutch members of Parliament.

Quoting Pretty Herds
Look up the statistics:


I did, which is why I asked you not to share bullshit.
Benkei June 19, 2021 at 05:49 #553179
Reply to ChatteringMonkey Yeah, if only I had the time and financial comfort to work full time on this. But in principle it's good advice.
Deletedmemberph June 19, 2021 at 07:06 #553203
Reply to Benkei I apologize. Most people aren't that sincere. I'm sorry.

Did the Dutch government respond or take action?
Hanover June 19, 2021 at 12:20 #553276
Quoting Benkei
So the only way to influence politics is diminishing China's power by diminishing its income


This sounds naive. The justification for your boycott is rightly a moral one, not a practical one. Not a single Chinese business will suffer from your efforts., but that's really not why you should or shouldn't boycott.
Foghorn June 19, 2021 at 12:26 #553279
Quoting Benkei
So, I want to boycott China because of Hong Kong and the Uighurs, and I've been working towards that for quite some time now.


Uh huh.... Sure, I believe you.
Foghorn June 19, 2021 at 12:31 #553281
Quoting DingoJones
I think we’ve already lost to whatever endgame agenda they have and just din’t know it yet.


Well, they are the biggest country in the world. As example, after WWII America and Russia replaced Europeans powers at the top of the geo-political heap largely because they are larger countries. So, the same process is probably still underway. Example: I've heard there are more middle class Chinese than all Americans total.

One guy on NPR suggested America should have the goal of having a population of a billion people by century's end, just for this reason. That story made me very glad that I'll be dead soon and not around to see that happen.

Foghorn June 19, 2021 at 12:36 #553282
Quoting Benkei
For me the Hong Kong situation is already enough, where they have reneged on clear promises.


Agreed, but isn't Hong Kong a lost cause, and hasn't it always been so? Why do people think that a single city is going to be able to resist or reform the largest dictatorship in the history of the planet? Hong Kong is over, if we're going to do anything it should be to help Kongers find new homes elsewhere. Vote with their feet, that's all they have left.

Foghorn June 19, 2021 at 12:39 #553284
Quoting Jack Cummins
I am concerned that at some point there will be a war between China and one of the large superpowers. But, I have thought this for a long time, and believe that it would potentially be the war which may end almost everything.


Yes, that could easily happen, agreed. Not on purpose probably, but there are plenty of opportunities for stumbling in to it.
Foghorn June 19, 2021 at 12:40 #553285
Quoting Manuel
What is most worrying to me is Taiwan. There it's very, very dangerous. And the US has to to stop being provocative, as well as China. Nuclear war is no joke.


Wise words, thank you.
Foghorn June 19, 2021 at 12:42 #553286
Quoting Benkei
Don't pollute my thread with bullshit


Said the fire to the frying pan....
Count Timothy von Icarus June 19, 2021 at 12:54 #553291
One of the biggest ironies of the China issue is that a carbon tax would do wonders to help move manufacturing back to the US.

Chinese goods are cheap because Chinese labor is cheaper, sure, but it's also because the externalities and carbon impact of shipping goods back and forth across the ocean, and producing goods in a place with fewer regulations, are not factored into the price.

Instead of arbitrary, reversible tarrifs, Trump could have had a lasting system that boosted domestic production in carbon taxation.
Manuel June 19, 2021 at 14:20 #553320
Reply to Foghorn

Thanks.

It really is scary...
Benkei June 19, 2021 at 14:41 #553334
Reply to Hanover It's getting more traction because it's more in the news nowadays and I think if we could make it easier for others they will more easily be persuaded to follow suit. So maybe not that practical, but every little bit helps. Meanwhile, the less of my money goes into building "re-education centres" the better.
Changeling June 19, 2021 at 16:21 #553388
This guy is pretty clued up about Chinese matters:



Cuthbert June 19, 2021 at 17:37 #553421
Reply to Manuel User image

Well, they are alive. Therefore (compare the false holocaust-denial arguments) there is no genocide.
Benkei June 19, 2021 at 18:09 #553437
Reply to Cuthbert uhmm... The re-education camps are intended to destroy a culture. You don't need to kill to effectively cause genocide.
Manuel June 19, 2021 at 18:30 #553448
Reply to Cuthbert

I try to avoid using the term too frequently, it can confuse more than clear up a situation.

Being treated that way is disgusting and inhumane and should not be tolerated. But to call that a "genocide" is not something I'm comfortable saying, unless China begins killing them en masse.

Disturbing, regardless.
Benkei June 20, 2021 at 08:10 #553851
The upcoming Polestar 3 will be manufactured in the USA. The earlier two versions are Chinese productions. Should you consider an electric car...
bert1 June 20, 2021 at 09:13 #553867
Quoting Benkei
The re-education camps are intended to destroy a culture. You don't need to kill to effectively cause genocide.


I read Cuthbert's post as ironic, but I could be wrong.
baker June 20, 2021 at 09:33 #553876
Quoting Benkei
So, I want to boycott China because of Hong Kong and the Uighurs, and I've been working towards that for quite some time now. Some things I've noticed.

One, boycotting China is expensive, expect to spend at least 10% more on most things.

The problem isn't just China. It's all those poor countries who at a terrible toll on their people and natural environment produce things that Westerners buy cheaply and treat poorly.
Instead, cast your boycotting net more widely, like I said elsewhere:

Quoting baker
What we should campaign against is the desire to get more for less. Against greed. Against the desire to keep up the appearance of a rich or at least middle class person while not actually being one.

Countries that produce low or lower quality goods and export them cheaply to first world countries are feeding precisely these Western desires. If Westerners wouldn't be so damn greedy, those poor countries wouldn't ruin their own people and their own land, as there'd be no demand for those cheap low(er) quality goods and unethical means of production.

You can point out how dirty the industry in those mostly poor countries is, how unethical their means of production, how totalitarian their governments. But are you willing, and more importantly, are you able to live your current lifestyle without buying their products?


Benkei June 20, 2021 at 10:16 #553888
Quoting baker
The problem isn't just China. It's all those poor countries who at a terrible toll on their people and natural environment produce things that Westerners buy cheaply and treat poorly.


Agreed. However, it's difficult to avoid Chinese products which is why I focus on it here. Brazilian is easy to avoid and Iran is already boycotted where I live by the government.
Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 11:21 #553918
This is a very interesting website that apparently sells "Boycott China" t-shirts, face masks, and other stuff.

boycottchinanow.com

Does anyone know anything about them or others?

They have some at cafepress as well.

And Amazon.
Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 11:57 #553935
Quoting Foghorn
One guy on NPR suggested America should have the goal of having a population of a billion people by century's end, just for this reason.


If you put North America and South America together, you get pretty close. It may not be a nice thought but what else do you suggest?

With the rise of China and other great powers, the old international order is falling apart and the world is reverting to the law of the jungle. Big fish eat small fish. You can avoid being eaten only by being bigger than the other guy.

Foghorn June 20, 2021 at 12:19 #553941
Quoting Apollodorus
If you put North America and South America together, you get pretty close. It may not be a nice thought but what else do you suggest?


Dying before that happens. :-)

I have a bit of a warped view on this, as I live in Florida, where the population has grown 7X during my lifetime. The population of the United States has doubled in my lifetime. More people = more problems. I'm a woods hermit, it just ain't for me.

We've been watching old reruns of NYPD Blue on TV recently. Takes place in New York City of course. I'm continually amazed that some people choose to spend their entire lives there. Definitely a "to each their own situation".

Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 12:49 #553956
Quoting Foghorn
I have a bit of a warped view on this, as I live in Florida, where the population has grown 7X during my lifetime. The population of the United States has doubled in my lifetime. More people = more problems. I'm a woods hermit, it just ain't for me.


I can see your point. Overpopulation in urban areas is going to be a big problem everywhere as everyone wants to live in megacities where the jobs and the nightlife are. There is a big shift from countryside to city, from south to north and from east to west across the globe.

Turkey is spreading in Europe, North Africa, and the Mid East, and teaming up with Iran, Pakistan, China, and North Korea. There is a new power bloc emerging that is changing the world order beyond recognition. I think next few decades is going to be interesting.

Foghorn June 20, 2021 at 13:01 #553963
Quoting Apollodorus
Overpopulation in urban areas is going to be a big problem everywhere as everyone wants to live in megacities where the jobs and the nightlife are.


Yes, imho, the biggest under reported story of the 20th century is the urbanization of humanity. More and more people are being born in to life almost completely cut off from nature.

And, increasingly all most people know about obtaining food is how to swipe a credit card, which makes us extremely vulnerable to supply disruptions. Sweeping social chaos begins at the moment that a critical mass of people conclude they're not going to be able to replenish their food supply by legal means. And so many people in urban areas have almost no food on hand in their dwelling.

Here in Florida along the coasts they've widened the roads as much as they can. To widen further would require demolishing trillions of dollars worth of real estate. And they just keep on coming, about 1,000 people per day move to Florida, every day of the year, for decades.

Anyway, I'll soon be breaking out of here in my casket escape pod. :-)
Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 13:18 #553975
Quoting Foghorn
Yes, imho, the biggest under reported story of the 20th century is the urbanization of humanity. More and more people are being born in to life almost completely cut off from nature.


Correct. Reminds me of Marx and Engels who in their Communist Manifesto wrote that:

"The bourgeoisie has subjected the country to the rule of the towns. It has created enormous cities, has greatly increased the urban population as compared with the rural, and has thus rescued
a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life."

Of course, for Marx and Engels that was exactly what they wanted, the total transformation of the countryside into cities because that was where the revolutionary working class, organized in "workers' battalions", and employed in immense state-owned industrial complexes, would be housed.

Foghorn June 20, 2021 at 13:31 #553982
Quoting Apollodorus
and has thus rescued
a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life."


Well, it has to be admitted that, the Chinese communists have rescued many millions from an ancient rural life which so many willingly abandoned.

My own perspective on such things is quite rich in illusions and delusions. I live on the edge of a major university city, with ready access to the surrounding countryside. I visit nature essentially as a tourist, coming home each night to my cozy city based suburban comforts.

When I was young I built a humble hippy house way out in the woods, and some friends and I tried to make it by being peanut farmers. That didn't last very long. Jimmy Carter we ain't. :-)



Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 13:52 #553989
Quoting Foghorn
Well, it has to be admitted that, the Chinese communists have rescued many millions from an ancient rural life which so many willingly abandoned.


Unfortunately, millions were "rescued" by being starved to death when Mao insisted on putting Marxist intellectuals with no experience or knowledge of agriculture in charge of the countryside. Same happened under Stalin and others.

But, yes, I think we should enjoy suburbia while it lasts. Unless something drastic happens, there isn't much we can do to stop urbanization anyway.



Foghorn June 20, 2021 at 14:47 #554010
Quoting Apollodorus
Unfortunately, millions were "rescued" by being starved to death when Mao insisted on putting Marxist intellectuals with no experience or knowledge of agriculture in charge of the countryside. Same happened under Stalin and others.


Agreed, it's a mixed record, on a very large scale.
jorndoe June 20, 2021 at 15:22 #554025
@Benkei, I'm wondering if lessons from other campaigns could be re-used.
Maybe, say, child labor, or something? Don't really know enough about it though. (NCLC, UNICEF, UN, AI)
Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 17:26 #554069
Quoting Jack Cummins
But, I am not really sure, because I don't always know where to get reliable news, as I am sure that there is so much going on behind the scenes of news headlines and stories.


True. But in a free society you should be able to get reliable news, like you do from the US or Europe. The fact that you can't get reliable news from China may already be a sign that there is something wrong.

"Officially, China is a unitary Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist republic under the leadership of the CCP" - Wikipedia

So, I suppose we could start with the fact that China is a dictatorship where no political parties are allowed except the ruling Communist Party and where ethnic and religious minorities are often suppressed:

Chinese Christians Held in Secretive Brainwashing Camps – Radio Free Asia

China’s persecution of Christians intensified in 2020 – Christian Reporter

The Vatican Remains Silent On The Persecution Of Christians In China – CRISIS Magazine

Tibet: Behind the façade – Free Tibet

It may be that not all of it is true, but it may equally be that it's actually worse. A dictatorship knows how to divide and suppress opposition and it has the means to do it. How else do you reckon the same party has been in power since 1949?

As they say, there is no smoke without fire. If thousands of people in Hong Kong are risking their lives demonstrating against Chinese interference, then it seems safe to assume that it is even worse on the mainland.



Jack Cummins June 20, 2021 at 18:13 #554098
Reply to Apollodorus
I know people who were born in China, and it is on that basis that I wonder about the slant of the media. Of course, I am not wishing to overlook any injustices of China or any nation. But, I do think that we have to consider the way in which America, and England, has tried to gain domination.

The war on terrorism involved America having control of the Middle East, and I believe that we are now moving into the possibility of power over China. Of course, it is easy to see oppression in other nations, but I think that an underlying aspect behind the scenes of politics, and manufactured news, is the fight for oil, which is running out rapidly.

Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 19:03 #554123
Quoting Jack Cummins
The war on terrorism involved America having control of the Middle East, and I believe that we are now moving into the possibility of power over China. Of course, it is easy to see oppression in other nations, but I think that an underlying aspect behind the scenes of politics, and manufactured news, is the fight for oil, which is running out rapidly.


I agree that resources like oil are important. But imagine the ramifications of oil fields falling into the hands of religious fanatics or madmen like Islamic State. The results would be as catastrophic as world war. The same would happen if China acquired control of Middle Eastern oil production as well as infiltrating and taking over western economies, etc. I think in any conflict it would seem wiser to side with your own people than with the enemy.

I also know people born in China and some of them can be pretty defensive when you raise any problems with the regime. All people have a sense of national pride and criticism of the regime isn't something people are used to in China, quite apart from the fact that they probably have relatives back home, so they need to be careful what they say. Or criticism of the government may be mistaken for racism, etc. I think the issue tends to be a bit more complex than is generally realized. This makes it all the more difficult to form a clear picture.

Jack Cummins June 20, 2021 at 19:10 #554131
Reply to Apollodorus
I believe that the issues we are discussing are so complex. Beyond the issues of seeing what is going on in the news critically, I believe in opposing injustice and oppression. The oppression and injustice does require people to make a stand but dangers of political conflict, and nuclear threats make the conflicts even more ominous. It all feels like such a dangerous juggling act.
Apollodorus June 20, 2021 at 22:42 #554301
Quoting Jack Cummins
The oppression and injustice does require people to make a stand but dangers of political conflict, and nuclear threats make the conflicts even more ominous. It all feels like such a dangerous juggling act.


The thing is that China's leadership is flexing its military and economic muscles whilst also pursuing an unusually aggressive foreign policy. Although the leaders call themselves communists, the system is really communist-controlled state capitalism and under the current leader it has become a form of national socialism with militaristic and expansionist ambitions.

What is encouraging the regime at the moment is that it has identified a low point in the Western world's economies that it seeks to exploit as much as possible. The West's frictions with Putin have also driven Russia closer to China which places China in an unprecedented position of power internationally.

The West could take action, for example, by limiting China's access to international credit and investment but the political will for that isn't there yet. China realizes the danger and aims to further strengthen its position economically and militarily while it can. It seems difficult in the current climate to see how conflict can be avoided. But a policy of appeasement that allows China to become even stronger is not a realistic solution IMO.

Foghorn June 20, 2021 at 22:48 #554305
Reply to Apollodorus Nice analysis, seems insightful, thanks.

It seems to me that the reality is that the world's largest nation is going to be a dominant player on the world stage. That said, there are threats to the stability of China which may reduce it's influence.

The Chinese Communists have accomplished a miracle in bringing historic numbers of people out of poverty. This has to be acknowledged. However, what this means is that they have dramatically raised the expectations of a dramatic number of people, and now those expectations need to be met for the regime to survive.
Cuthbert June 21, 2021 at 07:04 #554441
Reply to Benkei True, that's why I described the argument as 'false'. Just to make my opinion perfectly clear, there is genocide occurring in China against the Uyghurs.
Benkei June 21, 2021 at 07:49 #554447
Reply to Cuthbert Reply to bert1 Apologies. Thanks for the clarification. Sometimes I still miss things with English not being my native language.
Cuthbert June 21, 2021 at 09:14 #554463
Benkei, no, no, at least mostly my fault - online discussion does not signal irony well...!
Apollodorus June 21, 2021 at 11:03 #554480
Quoting Foghorn
It seems to me that the reality is that the world's largest nation is going to be a dominant player on the world stage. That said, there are threats to the stability of China which may reduce it's influence.


There may be some internal tensions within China that the West may be able to exploit to its own advantage - depending on the political will to do so. But a dictatorship like China can deal with domestic tension as long as it can keep some of the population on its side and chances are the Communist Party can do this for the foreseeable future.

The way I see it, the West, especially the European Union, has been constantly expanding from a Western European Union to the south and east of the Continent. Further economic and political expansion is planned (a) southward into North Africa and the Middle East (see the Union for the Mediterranean) and (b) eastward into Ukraine, the Caucasus, Central Asia, and (ultimately) Russia.

This is driving Russia into the arms of China, which puts China in a very strong position on the geostrategic chessboard. It was of course the West that brought China to its current position of regional power by building up its economy, in the first place. The West's pressure on Russia is good for China but bad for Russia and bad for the West. If things carry on like this, it's a win-win situation for China and lose-lose for the West. Somehow, I don't see Biden or Angela Merkel cracking this nut.

Benkei June 22, 2021 at 22:58 #555201
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jun/22/china-canada-relations-xinjiang-human-rights
Changeling June 22, 2021 at 23:12 #555209
Reply to Benkei I'll be on the maple syrup tonight.
Benkei July 09, 2021 at 04:58 #563692
So I've just written to an electronics review site to start including information about sourcing of materials and start taking human rights abuses into account when awarding rewards. Especially in the cheaper segments it's all Chinese products.
javi2541997 July 09, 2021 at 07:19 #563778
Reply to Benkei

Quoting Benkei
So I've just written to an electronics review site to start including information about sourcing of materials and start taking human rights abuses into account when awarding rewards.


Interesting and good one! China is powerful (and probably unstoppable in some countries of Africa and America...) due to this development of "cheap" electronic devices where all the rich entrepreneurs go just to build with zero costs. I see you are interested if we can block or at least penalized China, I guess the European Union has to do something better and be brave against Xi Jinping threats.
Here in Spain, a political party called "Podemos" put a warrant against Zara and Inditex for having their industries in China, Bangladesh, India, etc... Trying to make them put it on Spain or an European country. I don't know how is going but at least Zara paid a huge amount of money by the penalty of having those companies in these countries.
Also, interesting fact, "Real Institute El Cano" which is responsible for the Spanish image and language along the world, is trying to make "again" good relationships between Spain and Hispanoamerica because they see how silently China is getting more deeply in the economies of countries like Mexico, Paraguay, Ecuador, Honduras, etc...
While the new prime of Minister of Ecuador wants to work with Spain and Europe, Daniel Ortega as Prime Minister of Nicaragua, wants to be with China. I guess Nicaragua will have a bad future in the coming years...
Benkei July 09, 2021 at 07:35 #563786
Reply to javi2541997 Do you have links in English to those cases against inditex and zara? Could be a blueprint for more.

In an ideal world, we would be raising tariffs. Not a democracy? Bam, 25% Mark up. Human rights abuses? Here's another 25%.

I'm all for global economic integration because ultimately that's the way to peace but the playing field needs to be level and workers protected.
javi2541997 July 09, 2021 at 08:00 #563801
Quoting Benkei
Do you have links in English to those cases against inditex and zara? Could be a blueprint for more.


I want to share with you three important links.

http://www.izquierdadiario.es/De-explotar-costureras-gallegas-a-ninos-en-Bangladesh-el-secreto-de-Inditex-y-Amancio-Ortega

Sorry the one above is in Spanish but trust me is so worthy to have it because it explains so good how Inditex is guilty of slavery. Try to translate the page with Google translator.

https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/zara-hit-by-slave-labour-allegations-argentina/
This one is in English but it comes from Argentina.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/english.elpais.com/elpais/2019/05/21/inenglish/1558430833_506530.html%3foutputType=amp

This one also in English where political party "Podemos" is against Inditex.
Benkei July 09, 2021 at 08:05 #563805
Reply to javi2541997 thanks. Google translate resulted in fomenting legible and understandable. :up:
Benkei July 09, 2021 at 13:46 #563922
https://chinanever.com/categories/phones-not-made-in-china they have some other categories as well.
Changeling July 09, 2021 at 22:57 #564152
Reply to Benkei thanks for the link; Samsung is a great option.
Wayfarer July 10, 2021 at 00:31 #564171
Quoting NOS4A2
These efforts are a part of China’s Belt and Road initiative, which, if successful, would make CCP goods and services part of the very fabric of the global economy.


One of the Australian states signed up to Belt and Road, but later, the Federal Government passed, or intends to pass, a law giving them oversight of such agreements and the ability to void it. This is one of the reasons China is boycotting Australian wine, barley and other products - they're really trying to make an example of Australia.

By the way, this story is interesting:

[quote=NY Times; https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/04/technology/tech-cold-war-chips.html]a massive machine sold by a Dutch company has emerged as a key lever [against China] for policymakers — and illustrates how any country’s hopes of building a completely self-sufficient supply chain in semiconductor technology are unrealistic.

The machine is made by ASML Holding, based in Veldhoven [Holland]. Its system uses a different kind of light to define ultrasmall circuitry on chips, packing more performance into the small slices of silicon. The tool, which took decades to develop and was introduced for high-volume manufacturing in 2017, costs more than $150 million. Shipping it to customers requires 40 shipping containers, 20 trucks and three Boeing 747s.

The complex machine is widely acknowledged as necessary for making the most advanced chips, an ability with geopolitical implications. The Trump administration successfully lobbied the Dutch government to block shipments of such a machine to China in 2019, and the Biden administration has shown no signs of reversing that stance.[/quote]
baker July 10, 2021 at 14:32 #564393
But why boycott a particular country?
Why not focus on self-sufficiency?

Boycotting a particular country is like running away from danger, but not necessarily running to safety.
What we want is safety, so we should run toward safety, not merely away from danger. Self-sufficiency seems like the best practice for attaining (as much) safety (as possible).
Apollodorus July 10, 2021 at 14:48 #564403
Quoting Wayfarer
This is one of the reasons China is boycotting Australian wine, barley and other products - they're really trying to make an example of Australia.


I think this highlights the dangers of being too close to an increasingly assertive and aggressive China. People are taken in by cheap Chinese products and other benefits of economic cooperation but they forget that China is a dictatorship with many similarities to the National Socialist Germany of the 1930's

ssu July 10, 2021 at 18:34 #564496
Quoting baker
Boycotting a particular country is like running away from danger, but not necessarily running to safety.


A boycott is a hostile action which leads typically to even more tense diplomatic relations between two countries when the boycotts are made on the national level. It should be noted that it's two separate things if some pressure group wants to boycott an entity or nation create legal trade barriers. Next level up is a blockade, which is basically an act of war.
baker July 10, 2021 at 18:42 #564500
Quoting Apollodorus
People are taken in by cheap Chinese products and other benefits of economic cooperation


"Taken in"?
So China is a magician or something?

People are "taken in" by their own greed. If they wouldn't be so greedy, they wouldn't settle for buying cheap low quality export stuff (from China or anywhere else).
Apollodorus July 11, 2021 at 15:09 #564989
Quoting baker
People are "taken in" by their own greed. If they wouldn't be so greedy, they wouldn't settle for buying cheap low quality export stuff (from China or anywhere else).


That's what I meant. You get taken in by something only if and to extent that you give it the power to do so.

But that still doesn't make China a benign entity.

Benkei July 12, 2021 at 07:54 #565582
When Trump hit China with tariffs, Netgear moved its production to other Asian countries. But for how long? Probably a safer bet is Asus for any networking equipment.

Another interesting site, especially for Americans :

https://www.americanmanufacturing.org/made-in-america/

baker July 13, 2021 at 10:34 #566197
Quoting Apollodorus
But that still doesn't make China a benign entity.


Why should any entity be benign??
Apollodorus July 13, 2021 at 11:04 #566207
Reply to baker

I'm not saying it should be benign in this case.

On the contrary, as every political entity, including nation-states, are motivated by self-interest, we should assume that China is not benign toward the West.
baker July 13, 2021 at 11:10 #566213
Reply to Apollodorus So this is the real issue then? Namely, that we got taken in by our own greed, and since China has been feeding it so cheaply and so abundantly, we've come to conclude, besotted by our greed, that China means well to us -- and then we had a rude awakening upon seeing that China is not so benign, so now we feel betrayed by China and in an effort to protect our own greedy egos, we blame China instead of ourselves? Yes, this makes sense.
Apollodorus July 13, 2021 at 12:35 #566254
Reply to baker

:grin: Well, life and human psychology can be complex at times. There isn't much we can do about it.

We exported Marxism to Russia and the Russians exported it to China.

Russian Marxism failed and the Russians had to revert to capitalism.

China learned the lesson from Russia and introduced state capitalism controlled by the Marxist leadership and built on Western cash and technology.

Now China is rising and the West declining.

What lessons will the West learn and when? This is the question!
Hanover July 14, 2021 at 03:19 #566697
Quoting Benkei
, I want to boycott China because of Hong Kong and the Uighurs, and I've been working towards that for quite some time now. Some things I've noticed.


So you of course know China hasn't felt any sting from your embargo.

I see your tact as reverse charity, where instead of giving to the victims of society you withhold from the perpetrators upon society. That's moral behavior in theory, but I'm troubled with an ethic that is of good intent but no good consequence unless you accept a view that good thoughts and peaceful acts actually change the world in some indirect mystical way. I don't think that's where you're at though, but maybe, although I'm likely projecting.

With charity, I don't live under the illusion my small token will cure hunger, but I do need to know it will alleviate some amount of hunger somewhere for me to give.

I ask this because what you're doing is meaningless goodness, and you know it at a rational level, but you do it anyway. I suspect you feel good for doing it and feel some obligation to do it. Is this how atheists pray?
Benkei July 14, 2021 at 20:24 #567076
Quoting Hanover
So you of course know China hasn't felt any sting from your embargo.

I see your tact as reverse charity, where instead of giving to the victims of society you withhold from the perpetrators upon society. That's moral behavior in theory, but I'm troubled with an ethic that is of good intent but no good consequence unless you accept a view that good thoughts and peaceful acts actually change the world in some indirect mystical way. I don't think that's where you're at though, but maybe, although I'm likely projecting.

With charity, I don't live under the illusion my small token will cure hunger, but I do need to know it will alleviate some amount of hunger somewhere for me to give.

I ask this because what you're doing is meaningless goodness, and you know it at a rational level, but you do it anyway. I suspect you feel good for doing it and feel some obligation to do it. Is this how atheists pray?


It's called leading by example, raising awareness and having consistent morals. Spending money on Chinese goods is inconsistent with taking human rights to heart. This thread raises awareness and my actions may convince others to do likewise. I do more outside of this site.
Apollodorus July 14, 2021 at 21:11 #567106
Quoting Benkei
It's called leading by example, raising awareness and having consistent morals.


Sounds like a good enough example to me. And, who knows, maybe with a bit of luck it will someday snowball into a proper movement, put pressure on governments, etc., and then we can see some action.

How about a "China Resistance Day" to mark the birth of the movement?

BTW, I think we shouldn't forget Tibetans. They have as much human rights as the Uighurs and it might motivate more people to join.

Isaac July 15, 2021 at 07:27 #567334
Quoting Hanover
I ask this because what you're doing is meaningless goodness, and you know it at a rational level, but you do it anyway.


I don't think this is true. Not allowing oneself to be complicit in causing harm is a habit worth cultivating regardless of the (potentially limited) consequences of any individual action resulting from that cultivation.

It's not necessarily about avoiding the harm caused by the actions themselves. It's about avoiding the harm caused by developing a psychological means of allowing oneself to be complicit in causing harm. Once you have those defenses so firmly in place that you can see the suffering you're complicit in yet feel no compulsion to act, you have a means by which any complicity can be accepted without dissonance, and I think that's a dangerous tool to encourage a population to develop.
baker July 15, 2021 at 10:33 #567385
Quoting Isaac
It's not necessarily about avoiding the harm caused by the actions themselves. It's about avoiding the harm caused by developing a psychological means of allowing oneself to be complicit in causing harm. Once you have those defenses so firmly in place that you can see the suffering you're complicit in yet feel no compulsion to act, you have a means by which any complicity can be accepted without dissonance, and I think that's a dangerous tool to encourage a population to develop.

I agree. I've seen this phenomenon in, for example, meat eating Buddhists. Now, these peple vow not to take life, so they wouldn't kill or order the animals to be killed. Some of them wouldn't even kill a mosquito, but they have no problem with eating cows, pigs, chicken, etc. They believe they can buy meat at the supermarket, and that this way, they are in no way participating in the industry of killing animals and meat production. That since they themselves did not kill the animals, did not intend to kill the animals (or didn't intend to order them being killed), they can eat them guilt free and without fearing any kammic consequences.
Apollodorus July 15, 2021 at 12:30 #567424
Quoting baker
Some of them wouldn't even kill a mosquito, but they have no problem with eating cows, pigs, chicken, etc. They believe they can buy meat at the supermarket, and that this way, they are in no way participating in the industry of killing animals and meat production.


That's an interesting point. Apparently, according to the Dalai Lama,

Some Buddhist texts say that it is not permissible to eat any meat, but others, including the Abhidharma-Kosa, say it is permissible to eat meat on the condition that the animal was not slaughtered specifically for the person who eats it.


Is It Permissible For Buddhists To Eat Meat?

Obviously, when eating meat is unavoidable, there isn't much one can do. But I think that when your behavior affects human lives, the issue acquires a different perspective. If people and governments boycott say, Germany or South Africa for their state policies, I can see no reason why this shouldn't apply to China. It may well be the case that it isn't going to work, but from an ethical point of view, at least we try to do something to redress an unacceptable situation.



baker July 15, 2021 at 13:10 #567455
Quoting Apollodorus
If people and governments boycott say, Germany or South Africa for their state policies, I can see no reason why this shouldn't apply to China. It may well be the case that it isn't going to work, but from an ethical point of view, at least we try to do something to redress an unacceptable situation.

Following what Reply to Isaac said earlier:

By Buddhist logic, if you buy products that you know were produced in an unethical way, you are innocent of any wrongdoing so long as you didn't have any intention to cause those unethical ways or didn't directly have anything to do with those unethical ways.*

It seems that some (many?) people think this way, this is why they have no problem buying goods that they know were stolen or goods where it is clear that they are sold far under price (which means that someone isn't getting payed for their work in the process). It also explains why they don't feel responsible for pollution (because they don't drive their car or heat their house with the intention to pollute).

So if the intention mechanism is like this: "I didn't do X with the intention to get Y; thus, I am innocent of Y and needn't do anything about it", how then can people be made to take responsibility for the unintended consequences of their actions?



(*Granted, in Buddhism, there are lists of things that are specifically and directly prohibited, such as buying or accepting something for which you know was stolen.)
Apollodorus July 15, 2021 at 13:43 #567486
Reply to baker

Correct. I think humans are very ingenious creatures that are extremely good at setting rules and then constructing mechanisms that enable them to circumvent those rules with no feeling of guilt or wrongdoing whatsoever.

To be consistent, exceptions may be allowed when we have no choice, but when we do, we have a moral (and/or religious) duty to act responsibly and make the right choices.
TheArchitectOfTheGods July 24, 2021 at 11:26 #571115
Reply to Benkei
Be consequent and boycott Russia and Saudi-Arabia too. But then it would be cold in your house in winter (if you leave in Europe) and you wouldn`t have a car to pull your motor home for the holidays (if your dutch). Is that why people think it is easier to have opinions on Chinese affairs?
Benkei July 24, 2021 at 17:22 #571213
Reply to TheArchitectOfTheGods Whataboutism. The subject of the thread is clear, you can either contribute or waste everybody's time with comments like that.
Changeling December 01, 2021 at 01:13 #626195
@Benkei https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59473071

"Multi-billion EU bid to challenge Chinese influence

The EU is to reveal details of a global investment plan that's widely seen as a rival to China's Belt and Road initiative."
Benkei December 01, 2021 at 11:58 #626313
Reply to The Opposite Hmmm... Not sure yet how I feel about that but definitely interesting news. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
unenlightened December 01, 2021 at 15:02 #626341
Reply to The Opposite Reply to Benkei

I've little wish to defend China's record on human rights, and it is clear that the whole culture takes a very different attitude to individuality from the western tradition. But if you compare China's strategy abroad with either the US or God help us, the British Empire, then it looks highly benign, superficially. I'm not seeing many bombs, drones, troops, tanks, gunboats, at least. I'm not noticing many governments being subverted, peoples being enslaved and transported, revolutions being fomented, coups being subsidised. You know - the routine of government diplomacy.
Benkei December 01, 2021 at 15:54 #626354
Reply to unenlightened If you already have 1.4 billion people to exploit, you don't really have to look beyond your borders I guess.
Changeling December 01, 2021 at 19:19 #626434
Reply to unenlightened

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2019/09/hong-kong-arbitrary-arrests-brutal-beatings-and-torture-in-police-detention-revealed/

The CCP invaded Hong Kong discreetly. They'd be just as violent and malicious on a grander scale given the chance; proven bogeymen.
unenlightened December 01, 2021 at 21:24 #626464
Quoting The Opposite
The CCP invaded Hong Kong discreetly. They'd be just as violent and malicious on a grander scale given the chance; proven bogeymen.


You know Hong Kong was invaded and occupied by the British during the opium war, right? And held under a forced "lease" for 100 years. The Chinese had the temerity not to want us to flood China with opium in exchange for their tea and porcelain. Like I said, I'm not defending their record, but comparing it with the Western powers record. But I agree, they'd probably be just as violent and malicious as we are, given the chance.
Changeling December 02, 2021 at 03:39 #626626