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The world is the totality of facts.

Shawn February 24, 2017 at 18:13 12025 views 43 comments
I'm not sure if people can look past through the profundity of this statement; but, this is essentially saying another way that the totality of facts is that and only that what an omniscient being can perceive.

For any person with a self, and with it all the limitations that having a self entails in a world of states of affairs representing facts, then this proposition itself is meaningless. The totality of facts are by essence to such a being, unknowable.

Hence, whatever cannot be said must be passed over in silence, and let the will do its job, successfully or unsuccessfully as some might argue, in face of such glaring limitations.

So, get back to work or wallow.

Comments (43)

Buxtebuddha February 24, 2017 at 18:47 #57358
Reply to Question Mmm, I would say that the world is the totality of perception, whether one knows or does not know the factual quality of something.
jkop February 24, 2017 at 20:28 #57374
Quoting Heister Eggcart
the world is the totality of perception


Perception of what?
Buxtebuddha February 24, 2017 at 20:47 #57377
Reply to jkop Potential.
jkop February 24, 2017 at 22:15 #57396
Reply to Heister Eggcart
That would require magic, not omniscience. Potential is an object of thought, not perception.
Banno February 24, 2017 at 22:25 #57401
Quoting Question
this is essentially saying another way that the totality of facts is that and only that what an omniscient being can perceive.


You hd best fill in the gaps if you want to proceed.

There is no mention of perception in "The world is the totality of facts". So it must be introduced by some other assumption. What is your hidden assumption?
Shawn February 24, 2017 at 22:31 #57404
Reply to Banno

This can go about two way's and Wittgenstein choose the rather treacherous/fallacious path of solipsism in the Tractatus and with it private languages if I dare say so. The other path he could have taken is to assert a dichotomy between the self and an object but instead encapsulated both in language by saying that the limits of my language are the limits of my world (as if one could not learn a new word or fact), and the rest of the Tractatus would have fallen apart in my opinion.

I think the Investigations show's that solipsism was the wrong path to take.

There are obviously infinite modalities to states of affairs and the world, after all, is not two dimensional.
Marchesk February 24, 2017 at 22:49 #57407
The world just is. Facts are something we create from our intersection with the world as part of forming knowledge. Facts are a knowledge construct, even though they are about the world. But they are not the world, as if facts could exist independent of any minds.
Banno February 24, 2017 at 22:49 #57408
Reply to Question

I don't follow that.

Where does perception fit? Especially since the term does not appear in the Tractates.
Shawn February 24, 2017 at 23:27 #57415
Reply to Banno

Perception doesn't fit in with solipsism in the Tractatus, is what I'm saying.
Marchesk explained the issue.
Wayfarer February 25, 2017 at 00:35 #57431
Quoting Marchesk
Facts are a knowledge construct, even though they are about the world. But they are not the world, as if facts could exist independent of any minds.


I think I detect a change in your overall take on this from the Marchesky of yore. (Of course, I could be wrong).
Banno February 25, 2017 at 00:36 #57432
This bit? Quoting Marchesk
The world just is. Facts are something we create from our intersection with the world as part of forming knowledge.


That's just the ambiguity in English of "fact". Witti is very clear in setting out facts as distinct from statements of fact. Marchesk is just backtracking on that distinction.
Maw February 25, 2017 at 00:46 #57440
Quoting Heister Eggcart
I would say that the world is the totality of perception


Quoting Marchesk
Facts are a knowledge construct, even though they are about the world. But they are not the world, as if facts could exist independent of any minds.


Nonsense solipsism

Buxtebuddha February 25, 2017 at 02:48 #57467
quine February 25, 2017 at 04:00 #57474
The world is the totality of things.
Marchesk February 25, 2017 at 08:46 #57495
Quoting quine
The world is the totality of things.


The world is a totality of fields?
tom February 25, 2017 at 11:25 #57509
Quoting Question
I'm not sure if people can look past through the profundity of this statement; but, this is essentially saying another way that the totality of facts is that and only that what an omniscient being can perceive.


Inspired by the recent thread on Zeno's paradox, I shall prove that no "totality of facts" can exist:

Let T be the set of all facts T={t1, t2, t3, ...}

Consider, further all subsets of T, which are the elements of the power set of T, P(T) :

{}
{t1} {t2} {t3} ...
{t1, t2} {t1, t3} ...

To each element of the power set there will correspond a fact, which we construct like this:

t1 [math]\notin[/math] {}
t1 [math]\in[/math] {t1}
...
t1 [math]\in[/math] {t1, t2, t3, t4}
t1 [math]\notin[/math] {t2, t3, t4, t5}
...

Of course, there is nothing special about t1, a set of facts can be constructed similarly with any tn.

By constructing our new set of facts, we have a set with as many members as there are in the power set P(T). But, by Cantor's power set theorem, P(T) is always strictly larger than T.

Thus there are more facts than members of T, therefore no "totality of facts" can exist QED.

Pierre-Normand February 25, 2017 at 11:51 #57515
Quoting tom
Thus there are more facts than members of T, therefore no "totality of facts" can exist QED.


You've only shown there to be no infinite and denumerable totality of facts. There could still be a finite, or a non-denumerable, totality of facts. At any rate, that would not be ruled out on the basis of such a proof.
tom February 25, 2017 at 12:01 #57516
Quoting Pierre-Normand
You've only shown there to be no infinite and denumerable totality of facts. There could still be a finite, or a non-denumerable, totality of facts. At any rate, that would not be ruled out on the basis of such a proof.


Does Cantor's theorem not work for finite sets? I thought there was a well known relation between the cardinalities of a set and its power set?

As for uncountable sets, I'm pretty sure that Cantor proved that P(T) is always bigger.
Shawn February 25, 2017 at 13:45 #57527
Quoting quine
The world is the totality of things.


This is clearly not true. A computer is a logical space, which behavior is dictated by logical facts. Ask Turing. And as per the Church-Turing-Deutsch principle, the world is the totality of facts, not things.
tom February 25, 2017 at 13:52 #57530
Quoting Question
This is clearly not true. A computer is a logical space, which behavior is dictated by logical facts. Ask Turing. And as per the Church-Turing-Deutsch principle, the world is the totality of facts, not things.


But I've just proved there is no such thing as the totality of facts, and while doing so I have respected the CDT-Principle.

Shawn February 25, 2017 at 13:56 #57533
Reply to tom

That really depends on the facts of physics. Your proof is a perversion of Zeno's paradox as you state.

If it were true, then no physical law can be said to be absolute in all instances, which I doubt to be true. Every problem would be a super-task, at least any non-localized problem.
tom February 25, 2017 at 14:15 #57535
Quoting Question
That really depends on the facts of physics. Your proof is a perversion of Zeno's paradox as you state.


Nothing to do with Zeno's paradox. It's taking the power set and Cantor's theorem, as I explained.

And, if supertasks exist, then the CTD-principle is false.
Marchesk February 25, 2017 at 14:26 #57537
Quoting Question
This is clearly not true. A computer is a logical space, which behavior is dictated by logical facts. Ask Turing. And as per the Church-Turing-Deutsch principle, the world is the totality of facts, not things.


But a computer is actually a physical device that we invented to do logical things with. You have to have electromagnetism and atoms to make an electronic computer. The whole logical space, boolean algebra, and programming are all abstractions on top of the actual physicality of the machine.
Shawn February 25, 2017 at 14:28 #57539
Reply to Marchesk

But, those 'things' act in concert as logical facts.

It's nonsense to say that a tree doesn't falls in the forest if nobody is there to witness it, it just does.
Marchesk February 25, 2017 at 15:46 #57549
Quoting Question
It's nonsense to say that a tree doesn't falls in the forest if nobody is there to witness it, it just does.


Sure, and a computer moves electricity (or light) around when nobody is around to witness it.
Maw February 25, 2017 at 17:11 #57560
Reply to Heister Eggcart If the world is the totality of perception (i.e. mind-dependent) as opposed to fact (i.e. mind-independent) than the world began, so to speak, at the advent of consciousness, which is absurd.
Buxtebuddha February 25, 2017 at 18:47 #57581
Reply to Maw Mind-dependence doesn't mean that Ancient Egyptians and Velociraptors did not also exist.
Banno February 25, 2017 at 23:32 #57639
Love the argument, Tom; but I have to say I agree with Pierre-Normand that what you have shown is that the totality of facts is uncountable, not that it is impossible.
Shawn February 26, 2017 at 00:48 #57651
Does the fact that the universe have a totality of facts that are intelligible via the PoSR, mean in any way that it is self contained, consistent, and provable?
aletheist February 26, 2017 at 03:36 #57669
Quoting Banno
Love the argument, Tom; but I have to say I agree with Pierre-Normand that what you have shown is that the totality of facts is uncountable, not that it is impossible.


But if something is uncountable, then by definition, counting it is impossible; and if counting it is impossible, then by definition, it is infinite; and if it is infinite, then by definition it is impossible. Just ask Metaphysician Undercover. :-}
tom February 26, 2017 at 18:52 #57966
Quoting Banno
Love the argument, Tom; but I have to say I agree with Pierre-Normand that what you have shown is that the totality of facts is uncountable, not that it is impossible.


You don't understand Cantor's theorem then. The powerset is always strictly bigger than the set, as Cantor proved. This is how the various Aleph numbers are generated. Even if the set of facts was Aleph_3, its powerset would be Aleph_4.
Banno February 26, 2017 at 20:08 #57997
Reply to tom And...?
You've still not shown a contradiction; only that the number of facts is not countable.

tom February 26, 2017 at 20:25 #57998
Quoting Banno
You've still not shown a contradiction; only that the number of facts is not countable.


No. I showed that the ASSUMPTION that there is a totality of facts leads to a CONTRADICTION. The argument works whatever Aleph number you assign to the totality.

quine February 27, 2017 at 09:36 #58102
There are various versions of 'the world is the totality of so-and-so'.

Wittgenstein: The world is the totality of facts.
Carnap: The world is the totality of physical objects and logical structures.
Quine: The world is the totality of physical objects and mathematical objects.
Lewis: The world is the totality of things in possible worlds.
Armstrong: The world is the totality of states of affairs.
.
.
.
mcdoodle February 27, 2017 at 09:53 #58104
Quoting quine
There are various versions of 'the world is the totality of so-and-so'


Presumably any totality is at time t.

I'm not a great one for totalities. If a totality is in its details unknowable - and I presume it is - how can we reasonably claim to know what it consists of? Or perhaps, what constitutes it?

Wittgenstein's 'everything that is the case' was part of a tightly-defined set of propositions about, as we would say now, a closed formal system. I take it the others are.

What of gods, individuals' beliefs that no-one knows about, expectations that might or might not come to fruition, brilliant ideas for novels or the use of graphene that are about to be imagined but haven't been yet, ideas of beauty and morality...?
unenlightened February 27, 2017 at 11:00 #58111
My understanding is that this is definitive. It locates facts as physical, worldly affairs rather than linguistic. Statements of fact are statements about the world, and the facts are the truth makers. Thus the statement, "The world is the totality of facts." is not a fact, but a definition, a linguistic affair, for or against which factual evidence cannot be brought.

As such, it is certainly vulnerable to being shown to be contradictory or incoherent, but since there does seem to be a world, and we do talk about it both as a totality and as fragmentary facts, it is so fundamental to discourse that it might well be easier to dismantle set theory if it proves to be in contradiction with such a statement.
tom February 27, 2017 at 11:39 #58112
Quoting unenlightened
As such, it is certainly vulnerable to being shown to be contradictory or incoherent, but since there does seem to be a world, and we do talk about it both as a totality and as fragmentary facts, it is so fundamental to discourse that it might well be easier to dismantle set theory if it proves to be in contradiction with such a statement.


You will need to dismantle Relativity as well as Set Theory, not to mention reason if you want to maintain a "totality of facts".

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rietdijk%E2%80%93Putnam_argument
unenlightened February 27, 2017 at 11:54 #58114
Quoting tom
You will need to dismantle Relativity as well as Set Theory, not to mention reason if you want to maintain a "totality of facts".


I actually prefer to dismantle reason, over dismantling the world. That talk and theory and reason is in the end inadequate to the world is relatively unproblematic; we can always just shut up about what cannot be said. And that seems preferable to trying to excise it from the world.
Shawn February 27, 2017 at 11:57 #58115
Quoting quine
Wittgenstein: The world is the totality of facts.
Carnap: The world is the totality of physical objects and logical structures.
Quine: The world is the totality of physical objects and mathematical objects.
Lewis: The world is the totality of things in possible worlds.
Armstrong: The world is the totality of states of affairs.


What would Kripke say?

The world is the totality of every realized and unrealized modalities?
tom February 27, 2017 at 12:03 #58116
Quoting unenlightened
I actually prefer to dismantle reason, over dismantling the world. That talk and theory and reason is in the end inadequate to the world is relatively unproblematic; we can always just shut up about what cannot be said. And that seems preferable to trying to excise it from the world.


Sure, when PROVED wrong, just ignore it.
unenlightened February 27, 2017 at 12:10 #58118
Yes. If talk proves talk wrong, stop talking. If talk proves the world wrong, talk differently. Which do you think you've done?
Shawn February 27, 2017 at 12:12 #58119
Quoting unenlightened
Thus the statement, "The world is the totality of facts." is not a fact, but a definition, a linguistic affair, for or against which factual evidence cannot be brought.


Quoting unenlightened
Yes. If talk proves talk wrong, stop talking. If talk proves the world wrong, talk differently.


So, what is it? Metaphysics or no metaphysics?
unenlightened February 27, 2017 at 12:21 #58120
Quoting Question
So, what is it? Metaphysics or no metaphysics?


I think this is metaphysics: the world is under no obligation to conform itself to our talk; therefore we had best conform our talk to the world, to the extent we can.

To expect the world to conform itself to our talk is what is known as magical thinking. As if a cunning arrangement of words can oblige things to be thus and so.