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How do you think we should approach living with mentally lazy/weak people?

Tiberiusmoon June 13, 2021 at 08:26 9100 views 59 comments
As philosophers we study the various philosophies but when when we practice philosophy we take time to understanding faults that can occur to help strengthen our ability to study.

These extra steps in mental training are done so often that we can see the faults of others in daily life with less effort.
As a result you can find yourself living with people who are simple in thought who don't give the extra effort to think from a philosophers perspective.

Comments (59)

TheMadFool June 13, 2021 at 08:31 #549716
Reply to Tiberiusmoon [quote=SYT]Live and let live.[/quote] What say you?
fishfry June 13, 2021 at 08:52 #549718
@TheMadFool :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
god must be atheist June 13, 2021 at 10:04 #549727
Reply to TheMadFool Reply to fishfry
That just about sums it up pretty neatly. This was a nice thread.
Deleted User June 13, 2021 at 10:23 #549730
Perhaps this topic can be very important because phillosophy, especially today, is at risk of being too separated, too far from the mass, from common people. We might also argue that it doesn’t matter if people are wrong or lazy. It is too easy for a teacher to complain about his pupils. The difficult thing, the real challenge, is working to create connections with those who are different, and in this case the different ones are the ones that, for some reasons, are or appear lazy or wrong. So the problem is: how can we do philosophy differently, to make it immersed in its history, rather than isolated in its golden tower? A fantastic solution to this problem was the style adopted by Jesus, who talked in parables, that is, short stories very easy to understand and, at the same time, very concentrated in meaning. We can’t just say “People are stupid and lazy, they don’t understand anything”: even if we are right on this, saying this can’t be a final solution.
Tiberiusmoon June 13, 2021 at 11:23 #549740
Reply to Angelo
Problem is that philosophy is mostly seen in the academic form rather that its literal meaning / practice.
No one teaches philosophy only the philosophy of others and that is what is lacking.
Foghorn June 13, 2021 at 11:41 #549741
There is value in the view from the mountain top, and value in a view not from the mountain top. Society would collapse if everyone was inspecting and challenging everything all the time. Society needs those within the group consensus, and those without.

This is a daily experience for me. I've been happily married for 40 years to someone who is just as intelligent and educated as I am, but thoroughly non-philosophical. Our conversations swing wildly back and forth from the big picture to the detailed view. :-) Two of me in the same house would be one and a half too many. :-)

But some is good. Ideally, someone is attempting to stand back and see the larger picture some of the time. But the practical among us will ask, what do you philosopher people intend to do about the big picture? Um, well, er, you see, I mean, we'll get back to you on that....
Foghorn June 13, 2021 at 11:51 #549744
Quoting Angelo
A fantastic solution to this problem was the style adopted by Jesus, who talked in parables, that is, short stories very easy to understand and, at the same time, very concentrated in meaning.


Yea, I'm not Christian or religious, but I agree with this. The parable method has proven it's value in connecting over thousands of years. You know, the Bible is the best selling book of all time. We don't have to agree with everything in the Bible to appreciate this accomplishment.

Were I religious I might argue that the Bible was deliberately written to address the largest questions in a somewhat vague imprecise inconclusive manner so that we would argue over it's meaning for thousands of years, thus keeping a focus on the largest questions. This might be compared to the skillful philosophy professor who answers every question with another question.

A problem we seem to be having today is that many of us wish to interpret the parables within the scientific paradigm. We often wish for the parables to state clear unambiguous provable fact. But maybe books like the Bible are better compared to art, where one can share deep truths about the human condition within fictional stories.

James Riley June 13, 2021 at 14:22 #549761
In my opinion, the answer takes the work that the academic professes to enjoy, but I'm not so sure he/she really wants to do the work. The work is in formulating questions. It takes a great deal of time, patience and work for people like me to formulate a probing, non-threatening, inciteful question to ask the mentally weak or lazy person. Indeed, I am a mentally lazy person myself, so I'm more inclined to argue (in the lay sense of the term) than to formulate good questions. But like most people, I will entertain a question.

Quoting Angelo
A fantastic solution to this problem was the style adopted by Jesus, who talked in parables, that is, short stories very easy to understand and, at the same time, very concentrated in meaning.


That is good too, but I think it also takes time, patience and work to put together a parable. At least it does for me.

Granted, there are brilliant people who seem capable of working up a good question or parable off the cuff, but that ain't me. Those people, like Socrates, Jesus, et al, should be sought out. If you find an academic, a professor, or anyone else for that matter, who has mastered the art of the question or parable, latch on to them and don't let go until you've exhausted them, or it's otherwise time to move on.

One final point on the question and the questioner: I think a lot can be discerned in the genuine intellectual curiosity of the person asking the question. If they sincerely want to know what it is that a lazy/weak mind is thinking, the question will not be set up to prove something. It will be set up to understand. And people will often be amazed at what the process reveals.

I wish I had patience and the desire to understand. But some people are insufferable. Like me. :razz:



Benj96 June 13, 2021 at 14:40 #549766
There will always be mentally lazy/ weak people. They exist as a point of reference for which to determine those who are mentally strong and diligent. And vice versa of course.
We are a distribution of varying mental capacity with most in the middle and few at the extremes.
But even if you promote the weakest of us to improve by say 5% then still there is a bottom rung it just so happens to be five percent higher than previously.

It’s all relative and importantly, all necessary.
T Clark June 13, 2021 at 17:28 #549810
Quoting Tiberiusmoon
As a result you can find yourself living with people who are simple in thought who don't give the extra effort to think from a philosophers perspective.


There are many people who are not "simple in thought" who are not interested in philosophy. The lack of respect you show for others is either 1) not philosophical or 2) a good reason for people to avoid philosophy.
T Clark June 13, 2021 at 17:38 #549814
Quoting James Riley
I am a mentally lazy person myself


As am I.

Quoting James Riley
the question will not be set up to prove something. It will be set up to understand. And people will often be amazed at what the process reveals.


It has struck me that it is often the clarity with which a question or idea is presented that is most important. More important that the answer. There's a quote that I really like. I can't remember it or who said it, but here's a paraphrase - Clarity is so unfamiliar it is often mistaken for truth.

James Riley June 13, 2021 at 17:53 #549819
Quoting T Clark
Clarity is so unfamiliar it is often mistaken for truth.


HA! Good one. And it explains the appeal of some charlatans. Their followers might call it "brute honesty" and "political incorrectness" or "common sense". It works well with confirmation bias in an echo chamber, and finds it's way into the vernacular of the moron and pseudo-intellectual.

Truth has an awful burden to bear, having to deal with clarity and what not, and it's not always up to the task. Nevertheless, it's out there, somewhere, trudging along.
Tiberiusmoon June 13, 2021 at 17:56 #549822
Reply to T Clark
This is an observation of an assumption, you maybe mistaken when I use philosopher as a context which shows the conclusion of your comment.

I refer to a process of study not philosophy itself, the "lack of respect" as you put it assumes I dont have any without any mention or proof.
As I mentioned before; "simple in thought" refers to their process of study being different, much like how one can lift heavy objects with ease if they train to lift weights.
T Clark June 13, 2021 at 18:36 #549840
Quoting Tiberiusmoon
I refer to a process of study not philosophy itself, the "lack of respect" as you put it assumes I dont have any without any mention or proof.


The title of this discussion - "How do you think we should approach living with mentally lazy/weak people?"

QED.

Tiberiusmoon June 13, 2021 at 18:59 #549855
Reply to T Clark
Yes and I already explained this in the post, dont judge a book by its cover bro.
Judaka June 14, 2021 at 06:53 #550211
Reply to Tiberiusmoon
Another nice proverb is "one man's trash is another man's treasure".

But, what context are you talking about? Living within society? As family and friend? What?
Tiberiusmoon June 14, 2021 at 07:53 #550221
Reply to Judaka
Living within society
Judaka June 14, 2021 at 07:55 #550223
Reply to Tiberiusmoon
And what's the context of this living within society? Talking with people?
Tiberiusmoon June 14, 2021 at 08:11 #550229
Reply to Judaka
That and more, the judgements of others that are so half assed it causes issues for others.
Especially for people who are in higher positions. . .
Tom Storm June 14, 2021 at 08:46 #550238
Reply to T Clark :100: It certainly reads this way.
intpath32 June 14, 2021 at 08:53 #550240
a
Tiberiusmoon June 14, 2021 at 10:09 #550255
Quoting intpath32
How can you assume you know anything about how a person thinks by just talking to them.


Its call sociology or social science, were not psychic.

Quoting intpath32
Also mentally weak people as you call them might really be victims of an abusive power structure that never nurtured their creativity but instead scolded and punished it.


Or a system that fails in education only vaguely grasping bias concepts which leads to "victims of an abusive power structure that never nurtured their creativity but instead scolded and punished it."
Like your doing in your latter comment of:

Quoting intpath32
Get your head out the clouds because philosophy at the point you are at is useless, it is just mental masturbation


You contradict yourself.
Metaphysician Undercover June 14, 2021 at 11:35 #550287
Quoting Tiberiusmoon
As a result you can find yourself living with people who are simple in thought who don't give the extra effort to think from a philosophers perspective.


Each person has one's own place within a society, and many of these places do not require complex philosophical thought, so there is not need to compel these people toward it. What is a problem though, I believe, is bad habits of thought. Bad habits may enter into any field or discipline involved in complex thought, and may in some cases be associated with a form of laziness. For instance, in some cases we are encouraged to accept the principles presented by others whom we apprehend as authorities, without asking for justification. This form of laziness seems to pervade modern academia.
intpath32 June 14, 2021 at 14:58 #550405
a
unenlightened June 14, 2021 at 21:36 #550516
Laziness and weakness are the great civilising characteristics of humanity. They are what motivate every labour saving device ever invented, from the wheel to the faucet. The lazy and weak should therefore be venerated as the leaders of society.
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 17:59 #550823
Most philosophers and scientists are weak and lazy thinkers,stuck in their dogmas and comfort zones.
Trading common sense for conformity.
@Tiberiusmoon
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 18:58 #550862
Reply to Mystic
So maybe a better term is some kind of Nomadic thinker? (Thinking outside the box to put it loosely)
Vs settled thinking.
skyblack June 15, 2021 at 19:02 #550863
Quoting Mystic
Most philosophers and scientists are weak and lazy thinkers,stuck in their dogmas and comfort zones.
Trading common sense for conformity.


I see the word "common sense " has started to come up more in the threads, one wonders why. :-)

+1 with the caveat that in some cases it is less of laziness but more of dogmatic. Perhaps even a lack of intelligence.
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 19:10 #550869
@Tiberiusmoon Yep,that sounds good!
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 19:10 #550871
Reply to skyblack
yeeeaahh, common sense is not rational sense but a culturally biased sense.
Because common sense is in itself a culturally biased assumption of logic.
Which is why the practice of philosophy is so important.
skyblack June 15, 2021 at 19:12 #550873
Quoting Tiberiusmoon
yeeeaahh, common sense is not rational sense but a culturally biased sense.
Because common sense is in itself a culturally biased assumption of logic.
Which is why the practice of philosophy is so important.


Rather, common sense is rooted in intelligence, than philosophical or academic biases. But it may require common sense to see this.
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 19:12 #550876
@skyblack I agree!
Common sense should be more common! I mean there are things that are obvious to non academically-corrupted folk.
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 19:15 #550879
yeeeaahh, common sense is not rational sense but a culturally biased sense.
Because common sense is in itself a culturally biased assumption of logic.
Which is why the practice of philosophy is so important.— Tiberiusmoon


Rather, common sense is rooted in intelligence, rather than philosophical or academic biases. But it may require common sense to see this.

I totally agree with @skyblack here @Tiberiusmoon.
To think common sense is culturally biased is to fall foul of postmodern skepticism.
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 19:17 #550881
Reply to skyblack
Reply to Mystic
I get the dictionary term which supports your view on this, but if you break it down fundamentally of common and sense you have the majority or common group of people who view sense by their own standards of which may not be up to our expectation.
skyblack June 15, 2021 at 19:18 #550882
Quoting Tiberiusmoon
I get the dictionary term which supports your view on this, but if you break it down fundamentally of common and sense you have the majority or common group of people who view sense by their own standards of which may not be up to our expectation.


Quoting Tiberiusmoon
view sense by their own standards


Which may be non-sense.
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 19:21 #550886
Reply to skyblack
Common non-sense?
Could also be that the word sense itself is a observationally biased one.
skyblack June 15, 2021 at 19:22 #550887
Quoting Tiberiusmoon
Common non-sense?
Could also be that the word sense itself is a observationally biased one.


:-)
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 19:24 #550890
@Tiberiusmoon This is where excessive reliance on definitional words can lead to trouble.
Your viewpoint here Is leading to skepticism on even the senses.
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 19:29 #550895
Reply to Mystic
Its not uncommon to consider such things, much like how time dilation is observed differently between an external and internal observer.
I usually consider such things when perspectives are involved. :)
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 19:31 #550896
@Tiberiusmoon Time dilation is common sense. Everyone experiences it.
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 19:36 #550901
Reply to Mystic
Yes, and the topic of observational bias being considered in other subject matters is just as vaild for consideration. -The blind men and the elephant.
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 19:38 #550902
@Tiberiusmoon The blind man and the elephant is a bad parable.
When I look at a tree what is the observational bias?
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 19:49 #550905
Reply to Mystic
Depends on your perspective, if you are 20inches away looking forward you may only see a tree trunk, if you look straight up you only see tree branches, if you are 20 meters away you can see the whole tree.
If a person was only ever 20inches away looking straight at a tree trunk and you who can see the whole tree from your perspective, told that person that the tree is green and brown would disagree because from their perspective it is only a brown tree trunk.

The observational bias being all you see is assuming that its all their is to it.
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 20:00 #550910
@Tiberiusmoon And how many folks spend their life 20 inches from a tree?!
The point is from common sense we would say it's a tree. That's not a bias. Bias and perspective are different.
And who assumes all you see is all there is? When I see a tree from the front I know it also has a back,even though I don't see it.
In real life these pseudo biases on common sense matters are vastly overblown.
skyblack June 15, 2021 at 20:00 #550912
Ha
skyblack June 15, 2021 at 20:02 #550913
You know @Mystic .......

Your response reminds me again of common sense...
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 20:03 #550914
@skyblack Common sense is criminally underrated!
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 20:20 #550929
Reply to Mystic
You clearly don't understand the meaning of "The blind men and the elephant" then.
Or fail to see how it can be used in other subject matter in order to understand my meaning.
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 20:23 #550931
@Tiberiusmoon If you read my post you can see where I'm coming from. The parable is goofy. It's easy to understand but not a good parable.
Why not address what I wrote?
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 20:59 #550970
Reply to Mystic

I get it to but your observation is narrow minded, you are just distorting my comment to suit your argument with a strawman fallacy.

Moral of "the blind men and the elephant":
The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.

Everyone has a subjective experience of common sense, it is this experience that is based on influence which can differ from other peoples perspectives.
It is this that creates bias in what they assume to be common sense.

If you want to assume common knowledge of common sense to be an unbiased judgement then go ahead. :D
Mystic June 15, 2021 at 21:04 #550975
@Tiberiusmoon Look at your use of the word subjective here. Now look at your view from nowhere chimera of truth. How many perspectives do you need before you see an elephant?
Tiberiusmoon June 15, 2021 at 21:26 #551001
-Subjective
1.based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
Or
dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence.

I see no issue, a lot of influences can create cultural biases.

Quoting Mystic
How many perspectives do you need before you see an elephant?


Your still not getting it are you?
The story is about blind men with limited observational ability who assume their observation is all that there is to observe by touch from one perspective.
Such assumption leads to argument between others who observe the same elephant from different perspectives.

In this instance your limited observation is what you observe of common sense to be, but you do not share that same observation with how other people see common sense and assume everyone shares that observation.
Which is why your debating with me now.

Mystic June 16, 2021 at 12:14 #551331
@Tiberiusmoon The definitions of subjective above are both misleading for this discussion.
Everything is subjective. Can you tell me anything that doesn't come from your mind when you speak? Note,I don't mean objects exist only in your mind,I mean your perception of an object is from your mind,always!
If you think truth is some kind of democratic elephant modelling exercise then I will just say do you need six men to tell you you are not an elephant? Is your faith in your own perspective that weak?
Cheshire June 23, 2021 at 19:45 #555689
Done properly, one's awareness of vast ignorance keeps the tendency toward intellectual narcissism at bay.
180 Proof June 23, 2021 at 20:46 #555701
[quote=TSZ, On the Rabble]Life is a well of joy; but where the rabble drinks too, all wells are poisoned. I am fond of all that is clean, but I have no wish to see the grinning snouts and the thirst of the unclean.

[ ... ]

I was almost choked by my question: What? does life require even the rabble? Are poisoned wells required, and stinking fires and soiled dreams and maggots in the bread of life?[/quote]
Quoting Tiberiusmoon
How do you think we should approach living with mentally lazy/weak people?

"Learn to be indifferent to what makes no difference." ~Seneca

Furthermore, be mindful of
[quote=Epictetus]An ignorant person is inclined to blame others for his own misfortune. To blame oneself is proof of progress. But the wise man never has to blame another or himself.[/quote]
:fire:
I like sushi June 24, 2021 at 00:33 #555865
Reply to Tiberiusmoon How would you know if you’re too lazy to read/weak to put in the effort and read books? How would those who only read and interpret written works know if they’re too lazy/weak to think first before studying?

At least scholars of philosophy offer up better mediums through which true thinkers can access and assess what groundwork others have laid down over millennia.

Note: Personally I think getting deep into philosophical study is likely to form early bias for youthful students (ie. practically anyone under 30) because most people that young are hardly likely to know anything much due to lack of experience. The boon of youth is naivety. Raw curiosity and intrigue are better earlier on than filling your head with the thoughts of others and calling them your own.
Hillary May 08, 2022 at 17:42 #692508
Reply to intpath32

This is the most philosophical answer I have seen so far. :clap:
180 Proof May 08, 2022 at 19:16 #692539
Reply to unenlightened :fire: :smirk:
Hillary May 08, 2022 at 20:18 #692552
Quoting intpath32
a


The most lazy and weak answer sofar. Not even an attempt was made to use the capital A. Great! :lol: