What is the purpose of dreaming and what do dreams tell us?
I have always been fascinated by dreams, although I had nightmares as a child, including one about a woman with white eyes. I have also had a few precognitive ones. Often, dreams are seen within the field of psychology, and especially psychoanalysis. I see dreams as raising important questions for both.
I think that it is often believed that we sleep in order to rest our bodies, but I am inclined to think that perhaps we sleep in order to dream. The reason I think this is because dreaming seems to be about assimilating and integrating experience. I think that they also raise interesting questions about the nature of consciousness, and how this connects to the subconscious. As philosophy is concerned with the nature of consciousness, I think that the idea of the subconscious is important and should not just be left to the psychoanalysts.
So, I am raising the question of the purpose of dreams and understanding them. Do they have a purpose and meaning? I am not talking about the way of looking at them as done in books on dream interpretation, but on a deeper level. Jung spoke of such interpretation as being too generalised, because dream symbols have unique meanings for different people. Jung wrote so much about dreams, but I am sure that many others have thought a lot about dreaming too.
Most people can remember some of their dreams and while the ideas of psychologists and psychoanalysts are important I believe that dreams are an interesting area for philosophy, because sleep and dreaming are a central aspect of human experience and existence.
I think that it is often believed that we sleep in order to rest our bodies, but I am inclined to think that perhaps we sleep in order to dream. The reason I think this is because dreaming seems to be about assimilating and integrating experience. I think that they also raise interesting questions about the nature of consciousness, and how this connects to the subconscious. As philosophy is concerned with the nature of consciousness, I think that the idea of the subconscious is important and should not just be left to the psychoanalysts.
So, I am raising the question of the purpose of dreams and understanding them. Do they have a purpose and meaning? I am not talking about the way of looking at them as done in books on dream interpretation, but on a deeper level. Jung spoke of such interpretation as being too generalised, because dream symbols have unique meanings for different people. Jung wrote so much about dreams, but I am sure that many others have thought a lot about dreaming too.
Most people can remember some of their dreams and while the ideas of psychologists and psychoanalysts are important I believe that dreams are an interesting area for philosophy, because sleep and dreaming are a central aspect of human experience and existence.
Comments (133)
There is a problem-solving component interweaved with those conditions that returns us to consciousness sometimes. Some dreams seem like programs where you have to lose the game. But one permits them to continue. Sometimes that works out. Usually I am glad when the sequence comes to an end.
I agree with Jung that trying to get a handle on the symbolism is more like understanding grammar than predicates.
Sometimes, I hold on to a dream as a message. Other times, discard them as scenes that belong where they happened. This is a difficult subject to approach philosophically because it involves whether one is in a relationship with a daemon on or not. If that notion is meaningless, then the topic will not be the same for any who do accept something of that kind.
In my view, they do. Dreams re-connect us with a deeper reality within and around us that we tend to forget about during waking time. And they provide us with information that can be valuable if we learn how to read or interpret them.
I also think they play an important role in our psychological and spiritual development.
People who want to understand dreams are the Holstein in the theater, two seats over, feeding in a trough of popcorn and crinkling the bag; or that teen brother who comes and pulls the kid out of fantasy for some real world teasing.
Yeah, yeah, we've all read the science, the mechanics, the meaning. Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe the purpose of dreaming is to dream?
Like Hamlet?
Indeed.
I figured out how to lucid dream when i was 14 only I didn't know that it was called untill i was around 27 and heard someone talking about it and explained it to me and i was so fascinated that i wasn't the only person to achieve this state . I got to the point where I could lucid dream at will whenever i wanted to
I picked it back up after finding out what it was called and i had some interesting things happen that made me stop
What i mean was my dreams started lasting a really long time so much so that it was really starting to jack with my perspective of reality .
I feel that the dream realm only differs from this realm because of language/belief/repetition /confirmation /agreed upon parameters
And the natural state of the mind is more like the dream realm and that it is hard gor us to "hold" this reality and so we have to sleep and go back to are natural state for a time before doing it all over again . in fact one of the downsides to lucid dreaming is that it makes you tired and you don't wake up refreshed just like what happens if you try to stay up and not sleep.
Food for thought .
As far as lucid dreaming goes, it seems to me the reason one gets tired is that it does not allow for the not lucid part to have a chance.
As a person who works pretty hard, I need that other source.
Yes, but what if it's a multi-purpose function?
That may equally happen with philosophizing and other intellectual or even physical activities.
Everything in moderation (pan metron ariston), as they used to say.
A reasonable concept, as far as it goes.
But it does presume a lot of process of digestion that should not be taken as a given.
I have just thought that it is funny really, because I am going off to sleep, and dream..
Sleep, perchance to dream.
I don't dream anymore. Not that I can remember anyway. :sad:
Nietzsche, Friedrich Wilhelm. Human, All Too Human A Book for Free Spirits .
Edit - I just skimmed it and see it was a quote.
I read somewhere that we can predict what we will be worried about tomorrow, but not what we will dream tonight.
Someone said that anxiety is an antidote to dreams.
These two statements made me think. I came up with the idea that uses the theory that in the brain loops form in which an idea we find important, keeps on repeating, and the looping creates long-term memories. This looping can get troublesome, if you can't get out of it --- like starting the day with carelessly humming a tune, and by mid-day you want to tear your hair out because you can't get rid of the goddamned tune in your head.
I figure dreams are loop-destroyers. If the loops continued without a reprieve between any two consecutive days, then our days would be consumed with the same worries and anxieties as the previous day. That leads to high inefficiency. Therefore we dream, which is process of destroying the loops. Elements of the loops (several in a day's thinking) get disconnected, and reconnected to the element of the other loops we also want to lose. This is the basis why dreams are bizarre. The water barrel becomes your mother, who marries you and crawls away as a centipede, only to help you pass your calculus exam, during which you pee in the corner of the room, until the room became a barge, which becomes Marge from the Simpsons, etc etc.
The destroying of the loops is essential; the dreams are not predictors of the future but randomly scattered remnants of the recent past.
My girlfriend once related a dream to me in which there was a scarcity of collard greens in the area. Now, knowing her well, I immediately perceived the meaning of the greens: they represented dollar bills, and her dream was the expression of her fear of not having enough money to pay the bills.
The poor citizens however of a country whose paper currency is not green would presumably have such a dream in a different color, employing another metaphor. If it is orange, they might dream of a scarcity of pumpkins; if yellow, a scarcity of squash, etc. But I suspect that the color green may indeed convey a universal meaning of affluence to the mind of man, in that it is the general color of healthy vegetation; in the sense that, though water not dissolve everything, it nevertheless became known as “the universal solvent”.
I suspect there is a dream symbolism common to mankind regardless of his ethnicity or citizenship. An example is the representation in dreams of money as excrement, which symbolism I have seen in my own dreams; and I think this symbolism arises from a natural characteristic of money: it is the lowest thing we share that yet gives us a common measure of the value of things; a measure that, however, is also perceived to be woefully inadequate as a representation of their true value.
Do they have a purpose and meaning?
Maybe. I suppose that comes down to us, trying to interpret them and then creating meaning where there may be none. In my experience, some dreams can be quite random.
I think that dreams are so complex as they can be interpreted on many levels. I did spend time in Jungian analysis and my dreams stopped mysteriously, almost like my own subconscious was protesting or resisting analysis. I ended up analysing my real life experiences symbolically for some time. I did keep a dream diary for a few months during another time in my life, and, in that way, I really noticed symbolic themes emerging. What I often find is that my dreams could have one or more possible meanings, and the juggling of them offers one of the best options, even for solving problems, and I don't think that I have ever had one individual dream which stands out with a clear solution, although that would be nice. It sounds in your comment that you do a lot of holding on to the dreams too.
I am hoping that the thread will work as a philosophical discussions, and not just as a psychological one, and certainly not just focusing on Jung. I do think that Freud's approach is also useful too. It appears to me that a lot of people dismiss Freud's approach, viewing it as being just about looking at the sexual meanings of dreams. However, from my own reading, I think that he goes deeper and sees dreams almost like miniature psychoses, taking place within sleep, although I am not sure that I would be able to point to specific passages directly to validate my argument.
However, I think that a wider attempt to look at the philosophy of dreaming does involve looking at the question of what 'reality' is behind the process of dreaming. At the moment, I can't even attempt an answer, but it is definitely a matter which I would like to think about and explore in the thread.
I agree . but to give a better idea of what i mean is that there were times that i was asleep for (the. mind perceived time span ) of a week or 2 and in reality it had just been a 9hr night and I woke up so confused as to what day it was and why i was in my bed at home /Tech.
In fact the last one was 3 months long where in me my wife and daughter had moved to are dream house I remembered the entire 3 months even the going to bed and sleeping and waking up parts too and when i woke up and it was November and not January like it was in my dream i was so split minded it took me 2 days to fully "wake up" for lack of a better term and it wad all so real that it made me question the importance of the "real" world and i didn't like that because i want to value my life as real and important. .. Crazy times..
Correct. That can easily happen if you overdo it. Lucid dreaming normally requires some mental preparation and training and is best done under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing.
However, in metaphysical terms, lucid dreaming is just a stage on the path to higher states of consciousness. It isn't something that you do for fun and even less to "lose yourself" in it.
The problem arises when people mistake it for some kind of pastime.
Inability to dream can be a sign of lack of certain vitamins or minerals in your system or some other medical condition. In Ancient Greece and other cultures certain plants were used as an aid to stimulate dreams. Wreaths of rosemary or oregano were worn on the head or twigs placed under the pillow. Apparently, basil has the same effect. The plants can also be eaten or essential oils from them inhaled.
I do believe that dreams (and sleep) are important in many ways. I know that when I am severely lacking in sleep, I find it hard to function, especially when I was working rotating shift patterns which wrecked my body clock. Part of this is probably connected to the role of Melatonin, which is produced by the mysterious pineal gland.
I am extremely interested in lucid dreaming, and at some stage read some books on the subject. However, when I tried to practice it at will I was not able to. But, since then, I have found myself entering it accidentally, on a number of occasions, sometimes when I am overtired. It is an unusual experience, and I have felt it to be like some kind of enhancing meditation. That is because it involves imagery which seems like a learning curve.
I have read your first post and one you wrote a short while ago today. I probably first experience lucid dreaming, in the sense of experiencing imagery on the borderline of sleep and waking. I was aware that I was awake, but the experiences were so vivid that it felt incredibly real. I first experience them when I was at school, but never read about lucid dreaming until some time after I had read a lot in the field of psychoanalysis.
I am a bit surprised that you had such long times of pronounced dreaming. I presume that you were able to get up do some activities, like eat and drink. I also hope that you have a supportive network, because I don't think that I would ever get enough peace from others and various duties.
I do have an ongoing interest in dreams, but probably also see it in the context of some other perspectives, including ideas such as Aboriginal dreamtime and shamanic journeys. I believe that it is a fascinating area, but I do think that there are some potential dangers, like having difficulty with making a way back to reality.
Anyway, I do hope to engage in discussions with you again during the thread
Yes, sleep deprivation can lead to a number of physical and psychological problems.
Lucid dreaming can happen accidentally and it probably happens more often than is commonly assumed, only that people don't know what it is and just brush it off as a "normal" dream.
It is interesting that people who believe not to have this ability, soon find that it can be done with a bit of practice. In my view, this shows that there is a lot more to our consciousness (and to ourselves in general) that we only become aware of when we start paying attention to it.
As already stated in my reply to @MAYAEL, I take lucid dreaming in the context of attaining higher states of consciousness as part of the general inquiry into the nature of the subject of experience.
In my experience, asking the question "who am I?" or "who is experiencing this?" tends to help in going behind and above the everyday awareness of who we are.
I think, in philosophical terms, as pointed out by Plato, Plotinus, and others the emphasis must always be placed on the subject, not on the object, because this is the only way to find out who we really are, which is why "Know Thyself" (Gnothi Seauton) was central to philosophical inquiry among the original philosophers of Greece and other places.
Focusing on the subject instead of the object of lucid dream experience also helps prevent us from "losing ourselves" in the experience.
I think that you are correct to place an emphasis on the subject who is experiencing a state of consciousness rather than the state itself as the ultimate. From what I have seen a lot of the people have experiences of certain dream states and don't know how to understand them.
However, I am aware that speaking about such matters on the internet is to be done with a certain amount of caution. Nevertheless, I am sure that there is so much information on the internet which is extremely unhelpful, but I just try to approach the topic with certain reservation and safety because I would not wish to add to anyone's potential confusion. It is such a complex area, but I definitely agree that the idea of 'Know Thyself' is at the core of understanding of dreams, especially the lucid ones which may arise spontaneously.
I think that many people do see dreams as being like 'mental bowel movement'. However, I think that is partly connected to the way Western society has developed, with an emphasis on fast life, fast cars and fast everything. I guess that I am just not part of the 'fast' revolution and more into the more contemplative mode. I think that ancient people, and other cultures, paid far more attention to dreams. Yet, I think that there are plenty of individuals all over the globe who do, but it is probably more of a fringe interest, although certain dreams may sometimes strike people unexpectedly.
Thanks for the quote from Nietzsche, and it does seem that he is suggesting that dreams are a way of switching off from the pressures of life, and I think that can definitely be true. Hopefully, the dreams are pleasant, although usually if I have a bad dream I feel so glad to wake up and conclude that it was only a dream.
Some people don't seem to remember their dreams as much as others and I don't think that there are any clear explanations why. I know that there are times when I don't really remember them and other times when I remember so many that I feel tired just from thinking about them.
It is unclear whether it means one has been asleep but not in REM sleep. I don't think that you should really worry if you don't have dreams to recall, and this may change.I know people who don't think that they dream and it changes. The subconscious may have its own logic.
. This is a tremendously interesting question ... that ... has been debacted through decades ...
. What are the nature of dreams ... ? Are dreams connected to reality ... or ... is it just part of imagination and dreaming ... ?
. Dream is as real as any other reality. Dream is part of reality. We always create a dichotomy in our minds of good and bad, the real and unreal, of God and devil. We continuously create a dichotomy, and then of course we are caught in it, and it becomes a dilemma.
. Dream is part of reality as much as reality is part of dream. They are not two separate things. So dont create unnecessary problems… accept. It is good. Dream good dreams, and dream with more alertness, more awareness. Have a little more watchfulness and then you will be able to enjoy both. You can enjoy the whole movie of the mind. So many beautiful pictures move on the screen and you can just watch. No movie can be so dramatic or so intriguing but you have to become a spectator also.
. And this is a great art because in the dream you are everything: the actor, the story writer, the playback singer, the projector, the hall, the audience, the screen, the projected film. You are everything and you are doing all sorts of things alone.
. So just one thing has to be remembered to be a witness to all that is happening to you and enjoy it. A great drama is being enacted within you. Dont try to fight or to be against it; dont condemn it as being a dream.
If you dont condemn, by and by the dream will start disappearing. One day comes when the witness is left alone, all dreaming gone, all actors disappear, the projector and the film and the screen, and the theatre; everything gone. One is simply sitting alone in tremendous silence, in a great nowhereness, in nothingness….
. Dont long for it, otherwise it will not come! Just try to understand the dreams. Watch them, witness; dont fight and then that day will come on its own. If you hope for it, you have already lost your witnessing….
. Then just enjoy whatsoever is happening right now.
. The moment you're totally a witness to your dream ... the moment you're totally alert ... you turn to pure consciousness ... in that moment ... the dream is not ... suddenly ... it disappeared ... and ... for the first time ... you are ... not as a mind ... but as a witness ... which is beyond any mind projection ... therefore ... is beyond any dream ... because dreams are mind projections ... and ... mind projects the world ... hence ... the unreality of the world. The world is a means ... is a ladder ... don't be attached to the ladder. It's merely utilitarian ... but ... it's not an end unto itself.
. That state of pure consciousness ... leads to a marvelous end ... it's a timeless experiencing ... it's indescribable. Nobody can describe it ... and ... in fact ... nobody has ever been able to describe it ... it's beyond any description ...
. Jesus calls it the Kingdom of God ... Buddha calls it Dhamma ... Taoists call it TAO ... Sufists call it AWE ... But it's all the same Truth ... they're talking about the same reality ... from different corners ... from different angles ...
. Why do I say this ... ?
. Because dreams ... psychologically talking ... represent unfulfilled moments of your Life ... repressed desires ... things that you wanted to do but, could not – because of the society, because of the culture, because of the religion ...
. That which you didn't Live ... but you wanted to ... you do it ... through your dreams ...
. For example ... try to experience not eating ... at all ... during 2 days ...
. You'll be surprised ... that ... on the third day ... or even ... at the end of the second day ... most probably ... you'll dream about a big supper ... full of ... delicious food ...
. That's what happens to the so-called hindu yogis ...
. They repress their Libido ... their sexuality ... their sexual energy ... which ... part of it ... is manifested through eating ... and it tends to express from the deepest levels of the unconscious ... in the form of dreams. And ... dreams ... are born in that repressed reservoir ...
I think that your question as to whether dreams are 'connected to reality' or just 'imagination' is a central question underlying the philosophy, as opposed to psychology, of dreaming. I think that there is probably no absolute answer because there are so many different kinds of dreams. Some seem to be so 'ordinary' and a weird arrangement of the familiar, whereas some seem so profound as if they are beyond the dumping ground. These seem to be connected to the deeper levels of the self knowledge, and have a numinous quality and seem worth remembering. I don't really write down my dreams because those which are significant usually stand out and, I remember them, just like important life events and lessons. Of course, I don't know if this is how others feel about dreams.
. The more conscious one is about oneself ... The less ... dreams will happen ... have you ever noticed that ... ? It's an interesting phenomenon ...
. When one is no more repressed ... sexualy repressed ... naturally ... dreams fade away ...
. In Tantra and in Yoga ... we call it ... When your Muladhara, the sexual chakra ... is no more blocked ... by repressive energies ... is no more condemned ... by social conditioning ... then ... everything becomes crystal clear ... then ... dreams will not happen ... Why is it so? ... because you won't need them as a mediator ... between ... that which is ... and ... you ...
. You cannot dream about that ... whose nature ... is totally known for you ...
. You only dream that whose nature ... you don't like ... whose nature ... you try to deviate from ... while in wakefulness ... whose nature ... deep inside you ... is repressed ... you condemn ... or ... is condemned by society ... and ... you accept unconsciously this condemnation ...
. I don't dream ... I don't have the need to ... but ... in the past ... yes ... surely. Mistakes are vital ... in order to learn with them ...
. For example ... If you dismantle all condemnation about sex ... that ... these priests set up ... and this implies ... destroying all the christianity tradition ... which is unlikely ... and so on so forth ... you would be surprised to know ... that ... pornography and ... all ... the fancy sexual dreams ... would not and ... in fact ... could not exist ... by the very nature of existence ...
. These stupid priests ... are the real playboys ... they're the real founders ... of playboy ...
. Naturally ... when something is repressed ... it will appear in your dreams ... and it does appear ... in priests dreams ... in nuns dreams ... as ... a nightmare ... hence ... pedophilia and other sexual perversions ...
. Hence ... those stupid fancy stories of nuns ... reporting ... how wonderful is having sex with Satan ... It happened at the middle Ages ... They ... actually ... describe how persuasive ... Satan ... would have been with them ... How sexual he used to be ...
. All the pornhubs and etc ... would just vanish away ... completely ...
. Then ... nobody would have the need to pay a means ... to satisfy himself or herself ...
. Then ... this perversion ... would not exist ... at all ... because ... there would not be any repressed impulse ...
. Then ... sex ... would be a beautiful and a natural phenomenon ... would be ... truly ... a playfulness ...
. And in fact ... sex ... is a beautiful and a natural phenomenon ...
. Because ... Life comes from sex energy ... Life ... as such ... is sex energy ...
I doubt that pedophilia must be the result of repression. It can equally stem from lack of control and a disturbed mind. And it existed long before Christianity. I don't see any connection with religion.
I thought that is why you came here to the forum.
Something worth considering, and I don't think it necessarily contradicts the other ideas presented here - One aspect of evolution and development is that structures and functions developed for one function or capacity may have side effects. These can be rejiggered for use for another purpose or, as long as they don't gum up the works too much, they can just sit around doing what they do with no particular purpose or meaning. Just because they're there, it doesn't mean dreams mean anything or do anything.
I think that this is a topic for critical discussion and I don't come with any set agenda, or specific arguments to prove. I think that there is a danger of anyone thinking that they know all the answers. We all have such unique experiences, and I am not merely trying to sit on the fence, or if I am, its for lack of a comfortable chair. As it is, I try to read and look at life, and dreams, from the widest possible lens, or binoculars.
Having just said that I come from a situation of viewing in a general way, I am just aware that you have said something which is controversial because it has come to light how there has been sexual abuse behind closed doors. Obviously, that is an area of debate and controversy, with so many facets, but it is an aside from the topic of dreams. I suppose that the way in which the idea of the suppressed or repressed is relevant to dreams is in the way in which the subconscious works.
But, in a way we may have moved beyond the culture of sexual puritanism. I think that in the age of the pandemic we have moved into an emphasis on cleanliness and being germ free, with hand gel as the new 'holy water', but I don't wish to derail the thread I have started. I am simply saying the dynamics of the subconscious in the life of the individual have probably shifted, and this is likely to have implications for the individual, including the contents of dreams. However, I am wary of all generalisations, especially as it would appear likely that our own subconscious lives are affected by our cultural roots and upbringing.
Speaking for myself, drawing from personal experience, dreams tend to be more visual than anything else i.e. the primary sensory modality in dreams is vision; not surprising because we're supposed to sleep at night when sunlight is absent and dreams are somnological phenomena.
Why would our visual system be activated intermittently during episodes of REM (rapid eye movement)?
The contents of our dreams tend to be random in most cases bearing no relationship to immediate and even remote experiences while awake. Yes we do see people we know and objects we're familiar (not necessarily though) with in our dreams but the contexts in which they occur are completely novel and lie outside of our, how shall I put it?, history. I guess what I mean is that despite the fact that we seem people/objects that we're acquainted in our waking states, that they appear to be in completely new contexts suggests that our minds project their thoughts into the visual cortex of our brains. In other words, dreams are a combination of visual cortex activation and thought projection, whichever part of the brain that does that. That's why we see objects we're aware of (visual cortex switched on) but in entirely strange settings (thought projection...prefrontal cortex?).
Mayhaps, the brain is generating possible worlds, different scenarios, contemplating hypotheticals i.e. imagining "what if?" To what end though is a mystery to me. What's the purpose of thinking hypothetically?
Last but not the least, this is going to make you laugh, it's quite possible that dreams are screensavers
I think that dreams definitely contain anxiety based on the past. However, they can also contain signs of the future, as many have experienced. But, it is possible that this is more about being able to see patterns beyond the immediate, and it could be that the subconscious is more able to tune into this aspect of experience.
I think that you are correct to see the way in which we are able to see and construct meanings in dreams. I think that it is so individual and based on life experiences. I have dreams about ideas or discussion of ideas but that says a lot about my own mindset. I think that the extent to which we develop our own dream lives is connected to how important they are to us. It may be that people whose outer lives are more unhappy or empty become more focused on dream experiences.
Thanks for your contribution and the idea of possible worlds'. However, what I do have to say is that I created this thread last night, and went to bed. When I finally managed to get to sleep I was dreaming about reading and writing on the site. I dreamt that you had started a thread about the idea of delusion. When I woke up and looked at the site, I discovered that you had really created a thread about a blue butterfly and about illusion.
I have been thinking was this is a synchronicity? Or, is it an example of how easy it is to read meanings into patterns? I am not sure...But, I also dreamt that someone, and I won't name the person created a thread called, 'The Way Stories Program Us'. I think that it is unlikely that such a thread will appear, but wouldn't it be strange if it did. Probably, my dream is more a sign that I think too much about this site if I am dreaming about threads which don't even exist. But, as my phone is beside my bed and beeps if I get replies, perhaps it is not surprising that I dream that I am reading and writing on the site.
Can you maybe delve into that in more detail and describe it? I would be very interested in that.
I will try, but it will be later because I am out and my battery is going to run out. But, I will try to illustrate my point.
Okay, thanks.
Food for thought: REM sleep (dreams) if not interrupted results in total failure to recollect one's dreams. Why is that? Dreams are about familiar objects like one's lover (wet dreams) or other everyday objects, implying that the brain in REM sleep has access to long-term memory. However the dream itself isn't stored into long-term memory and thus our inability to remember them later, say in the morning when you wake up after a night's sleep. It appears that the brain wants to ensure that sleep and awake states don't communicate with each other. It almost feels like a conspiracy masterminded by the brain; you know, like keeping two criminals (bad analogy but bear with me) in separate cells to prevent them from cooperating and breaking out of prison. That said, dreams seem to be held in short-term memory as we can recall them if woken up in REM sleep. To make the long story short, dreaming accesses long-term memory but the hypotheticals it deals with exist for a very brief moment in short-term memory.
An interesting corollary follows: quite possibly those who complain of poor memory are dreaming (sleep walking).
I am putting in my final comment for today, and I don't wish for it be heavy weather, because I opened the thread for lively interaction.
I am a bit reserved to talk about dream premonitions in detail, because it goes back to a difficult period in my life, when I had 3 friends commit suicide. I had a variety of premonitions but felt powerless to help my friends, as two of them were not even living near to me. My strongest premonitions included a dream of seeing a broken apart body lying on a pavement, a couple of days before hearing of a friend's death.
However, I won't go into further because this is a thread I only started yesterday. I don't wish for it to become negative and depressing, because that is not my outlook on dreams at all. I may share some more positive experiences later, and apart from the risk of disclosing on line, such disclosure only counts as some kind of empirical evidence, which is only of certain limited value within philosophy discussion.
I am already concerned that the territory which I have explored will make it the 'untouchable' thread. I was hoping that it could become a really upbeat thread, because I see dreaming as being far from doom and gloom. I see it as a creative endeavour. I welcome any further contributions, but if not, I will try to write my outstanding replies tomorrow, and frame them in such a way that they may contribute towards positive, upbeat exploration and I don't wish to write the most miserable thread ever. That is not how I see life or dreams at all.
My personal impression is that dreams have more than just one purpose, e.g.:
1. One possibility is that the mind processes and assimilates experiences that it had no opportunity to deal with during waking.
2. Thinking or dreaming hypothetically may be another way of learning, developing ideas, or preparing us for unforeseen situations.
3. Dreams may contain "signs of the future" as suggested by @Jack.
4. Another possibility is that humans leave "thought imprints" on surrounding objects in the same way we leave scent particles and other traces that can be picked up by animals or scientific instruments. We then unconsciously pick them up through contact with those objects, e.g., a chair in a restaurant or coffee shop, and then "read" and process the information via images seen in dreams. This would be the case when we dream of objects and persons with whom we have no known connections.
There are other "metaphysical" possibilities but I don't think we need to go into them here.
Quoting Apollodorus
All I've eaten for the last few years is plants :lol: And even before this I always had a relatively healthy diet, nothing like the "Standard American Diet".
Maybe my Crohn's/Colitis is causing lack of absorption or something.
We can psychoanalyze them or say that when we dream our brains are at the deepest state of rest or something along those lines, but it says virtually nothing of what "purpose" they have, if any.
It's very interesting. But supremely difficult.
Or the subconscious may have its own logic as @Jack says. You can always try telling it to look into it and see what it comes up with.
Thank you for your response despite its somber content. I am very interested in parapsychological phenomena, that is why I asked you about your precognitive dreams. I know that most parapsychologists assume that precognitive dreams do not present an objective, or objectively given future, but that the mind constructs an event that is very likely to occur.
My particular dreams are a bit more mundane. I had several times dreamed the correct outcome of a sporting event that took place while I was asleep, communicated by some dream person. All electronic devices in my bedroom were switched off. And it had not always been a generally expected result. It was once a boxing match. which was even an upset. However, such dreams were always rare.
That's an unpleasant comment. I hope I am better than this TC.
The idea of dreams as a kind of bowel movement is not uncommon and was certainly an idea proposed when I studied counselling in the 1980's.
I see also in The Dream Interpretation Dictionary: Symbols, Signs, and Meanings
By J.M. DeBord, that the bowel movement/dream comparison is suggested. Page 384. 'The bowel movement is... a perfect analogy for the nightly process of discarding unneeded memories.' I don't know about memories as such, but all the material that goes into the mind during the day is processed and, perhaps, is subsequently evacuated.
Thank you for your response, and I am still logged in. I am certainly not wishing to create a somber thread, which is why I put my responses on hold. I definitely would wish to look beyond my own dreams and include so many other people's experiences. I do believe that the mundane, including boxing matches, are all aspects of trying to see our lives within a larger scheme. But, I am out and about, relying on a mobile signal, but tomorrow, I am hoping that I can work through some unanswered replies because I do believe that dreaming and philosophy can be a useful area of discussion.
I am really about to finish writing for tonight as I am not home yet. I certainly didn't see your comment about 'bowel movements' as the end of discussion because I think that you really say so much more. But, I think that is one of the ways in which dreams are seen, and I think that is how many people see philosophy too. But, I really will log out now, because my mum is waiting for my call to know that I am home safely.
Well, the OP seems to be about what purpose people think dreams have and how they understand them.
Quoting Jack Cummins
People can experience and interpret dreams differently. As dreams are a subjective experience, what is "right" or "wrong" may ultimately be a subjective decision. It doesn't mean that people can't exchange views or "speculate" about them.
Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams, a statement that makes complete sense since some have voiced the opinion that reality, our waking experience, isn't really real.
Very true. There is also the possibility that dreams are the real reality and waking experience the dreamed one. Alternatively, we may find that both are just dreams once we've woken up in the morning and realized what the real reality is. It should be interesting to see if Jack - or his thread - is still there.
I'm sorry it bothered you. It does not reflect my opinion of your contributions here. In the past I have expressed my appreciation for what you bring to the forum. It surprises me you thought I might be serious. I'll be more careful in the future.
Quoting Jack Cummins
I'm going to have to do some research. I can only remember the subject of two dreams since childhood - one of which I remember none of the sequence of events, the other I can only remember seconds of. It's a shame, because I think they were nice dreams too.
I prefer symbolic-semiotic structuring (e.g. Cassirer-Langer, Bataille, Levi-Strauss, Eco) for "dream" analysis / interpretation over neurosis-anxiety repressions (e.g. Freud, Jung, Lacan, Žizek) if only because the latter approach is less physiologically grounded (e.g. accounts less empirically for cognitive biases) than the former approach. Others have already touched on some compelling findings from the neurosciences of sleep so I won't bother repeating them except to add that active REM-like dreaming sleep-behaviors are observed in (all?) mammals which convinces me that "dreams" are only by-products of sleep's homeostatic maintenance functions and N O T independent, or transcendent, messages or bearers of "meaning". Yeah, subpersonal "bowel movements" (or defragging memory-buffers) are much more like it. Contra (daily increases of) CNS-entropy, no?
Exactly... though I'm open to an explanation, I've been constantly wondering while reading this thread how certain people opining here would account for the fact that our furry cousins can dream just as well as the naked variety. Is there supposed to be something unique about our dreams, or does a bat's dream have meaning too? (Or is the meaning supposed to be just in the interpretation... dreams as ink blots?)
As far as I am aware animals dream which does also suggest that animals have a subconscious. We could also say that thinking about dreaming involves wondering about the nature of the subconscious itself.
I am wondering if you wish to share a bit about your own precognitive dreams. It doesn't matter if they are mundane, because I am not wishing this thread to become too heavy weather. I believe that my childhood memory of one was when I dreamt that my toy chimpanzee's arm broke and it really did break shortly afterwards. Apart from being upset that Charlie Chimp's arm broke, I can remember saying to my mum, how strange it was that I had the dream beforehand.
I noticed in one of your comments, you say that 'Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams.' and you go on to say that would mean that our waking experience isn't real. If that were the case it could be the basis for the Eastern idea of maya, or the idea of reality as an illusion. Or, alternatively it could even be the basis for the soliptist point of view. Do you have any further thoughts on the matter?
Thanks for asking this question. It just popped into my head why we can't remember our dreams. There's a very good reason for that. First some context. I know a person, an acquaintance only. We engage in the occasional chit-chat and a constant feature in these rare conversations we have is the one where he can't seem to tell whether one of his experiences actually happened or whether it was only a dream. As you might've already guessed, there's nothing about the mental images of dreams and waking states that could aid us in distinguishing whether a particular memory was the real deal or a dream. He seemed confused and troubled by it and I feel he still hasn't figured out the truth.
Anyway, to get right to the point, if one recalls one's dreams perfectly, there's a small chance that you might confuse reality, believed to be the waking state and the unreal, the dreams. Just imagine if a woman had a nightmare in which she's raped by a certain Mr. X, she recalls it and what if she can't tell whether it was when she was dreaming or when she was awake? Frightening! Just thinking of it gives me the chills!
Perhaps, this answers your question!
I think that such confusion over whether certain experiences really happened or not does exist in certain states of delirium, such as those involved in alcohol intoxication, psychosis and dementia. There is also what Freud describes as false memory syndrome, but that can be criticised on the basis that it is about someone, such as a psychiatrist trying to tell someone that a certain experiences is simply their imagination.
But, I know some people who do seem unsure of their own memories, and, it does seem that waking life and dreams almost blur together. We can even ask to what extent are we truly 'awake'. Guirjieff and a number of other thinkers thought that most people were living like robots and that the goal should be to become more awake.
Unfortunately, possible. Nevertheless, the brain, as a precautionary measure, might want to forget dreams so that we don't confuse them with the real. If it didn't do that, I foresee, even with my myopia, a great many problems that can be avoided by simply failing to remember dreams. Why risk it? Are dreams really that important?
I did a Google search of the most common dream people have and it's falling from heights. Of course, there might be a deep meaning to this particular dream theme but we all.get scared of heights to varying extents. If dreams are about our fears then a much easier way to work out the comtents of dreams is to work backwards from what makes us afraid and extrapolate the findings to dreams instead of interviewing people about their dreams. You get the idea, right?
It is unclear whether these particular dreams of mine were precognitive or more clairvoyant. I believe the latter is the case. It's always hard to tell. Of course, I'm also keeping open the possibility that this was all pure coincidence. Only when you experience it yourself, it doesn't seem so coincidental.
In fact, I once had a dream that did not have the usual dream quality, it was different, not so visual, rather everything somehow shadowy outlined, as when you close your eyes in wakefulness and still have a vague idea of your surroundings, which you just saw clearly. The dream was more characterized by a sober feeling of passive witnessing, of being a spectator of a situation, instead of the feeling of being in a fantasy realm where I have to act constantly. What was almost indistinguishable from reality was the acoustics.
Now to the content of the dream or perhaps clairvoyance. A half-sister of mine, who was very pregnant, talked with her partner about the name of her soon-to-be-born son and both had decided on a name.
The next day I could only remember very clearly that an A-sound stood out in the name. Sometime later, perhaps after a few weeks, this had been confirmed. The name was Mat___o.
As I said, it could have been a big coincidence. But the dream was really clearly different in quality from all my previous ones.
The problem with that argument is that people do remember dreams. Perhaps not always and not perfectly, but dream recollection isn't at all unusual. What seems to be the case is that we remember dreams that appear to have a meaning or are otherwise of importance to us personally.
IMO the fact that sometimes people aren't sure whether their experience was a dream or something more real is a separate issue.
Yes, coincidences are possible. However, in my own experience, dreams are sometimes a premonition of events that actually happen soon after, usually within one to three days of an unusually "real" or "lucid" dream that I remember quite clearly for days, and where there is no possibility of "coincidence".
I tend to believe that we all have this ability that is more developed in some than in others and that can be enhanced through training and practice. But, as a rule, when we pay attention to our dreams and our dreaming abilities, the "subconscious" or whatever we choose to call it, tends to respond and become more "communicative" or "cooperative", as if a greater harmony was established between the waking and the dreaming self.
Another ability that some people, including myself, have is to wake up at a certain time without an alarm clock or any other aid. In my case, I usually wake up about ten minutes before the set time. This would seem to suggest that our waking self is in contact with our subconscious at all times. But what normally happens is that people pay little attention to their subconscious or totally ignore it or aren't even aware of its existence except, for example, when they know that they have a part of themselves that dreams or exists in a world of its own.
One idea about dreaming which I am aware of in some philosophies, especially those in the East, is that of the astral body. This is also linked to the idea of there being an astral plane. I am aware of the idea being open to attack within philosophy, but, in some ways, I think that I find the idea makes sense. Of course, the idea does involve the belief that the astral body is there all the time, and is involved in the emotional life and also comes into play when people get sick .It is closely related to the concept of auras, which some people claim that they can see.
The term for "astral body" in the Greek (Platonist) tradition is ????? ochema, literally, “vehicle” a kind of subtle body the soul uses in dreams, out of body states, or on the metaphysical planes of existence in general.
This subtle body is indestructible and eternal and it envelops the soul proper at all times. Basically, a human being consists of (1) spirit (nous or pneuma) or pure intelligence, (2) soul (psyche) or psycho-mental complex along with an invisible subtle body, and (3) visible physical body (soma). As the subtle body (ochema) consists of a form of quasi-material energy, it may be visible in certain circumstances especially to those who seem to have the ability, but occasionally also to others.
As you say, the astral body does have a close connection with the physical body, in fact, the physical body is said to be an extension or "copy" of the subtle one. The latter is therefore involved in the physical and mental health and well-being of the embodied soul.
Edit. The purification and cultivation of the ochema is what enables the soul to elevate itself to higher realms of experience.
[quote=www.healthline.com] If you have trouble remembering dreams, you're in good company. Most of us have 4 to 6 dreams a night, but we forget the vast majority of them.[/quote]
The Brain May Actively Forget In Dream Sleep (NIH)
We all have our own little problems.
I thought that the idea of the astral body probably goes back to Plato. I came across the idea in theosophy. One interesting argument for the existence of an astral body is the existence of images of it within Kirlian photography. I had my aura photographed once, and it was a mixture of red, pink and orange. The interpretation of the person who photographed it was fairly interesting, considering that she had never met me before.
I have heard that dreams of falling, on the verge of sleep, are connected to going into the astral dimension. I have these frequently and they often jolt me awake.
That's an interesting little article. I do think that we do need to forget dreams to some extent, in our waking lives, in order to focus on the tasks of our daily life. Similarly, we do need to forget the tasks of daily life, in dreams, in order to switch off. Dreams can even be seen as a form of diversion or entertainment. I spent a few sessions once, on what was called a dream machine. This involved listening to certain sounds and having images displayed on goggles. It involved the range of the alpha, delta and theta brainwaves, which come into play in states of meditation, and I felt so much more relaxed after the sessions
However, in thinking about waking and dreaming consciousness, it is as if they are two separate, but interrelated lives. They run parallel, and we may even interact with the same people in both. Time within dreams is also interesting, because we can go back. I frequently have dreams in which I am back in sixth form, interacting with friends from that time, and I believe that it was because that was the time when I discovered most of the importance issues and themes which have been central to my life. But, dreams are also interesting in the way we still can regain memories of people from the past, although this is not necessarily something which we can choose by will.
Yes, the Greek philosophers were naturally aware of the existence of a subtle body. Interest in it seems to have become more prominent by the time of Iamblichus and others, but another possibility is that at the time of Plato occult teachings were transmitted orally hence there are fewer written records from that period.
But you are right about dreams of falling at the start of sleep. A related experience is when you are awake but seem to be somewhere outside the physical body which you are trying to move but remains totally immovable despite all efforts, giving rise to the rather unpleasant impression that you have "died" or are "about to die". Fortunately, it tends to only last for a few minutes. Perhaps this illustrates the danger of experimenting with things one has no knowledge or experience of. You would probably have to devote a lot of time and practice to develop and master even a fraction of your paranormal abilities. So, I think it's a personal decision as to how deep one wants to delve into it.
I agree that there is a danger of experimentation. But, as so much can happen spontaneously, it does seem that a certain amount of development of mastery is likely to help.
I definitely have experiences on the borderline of sleep in which I feel unable to move, and I think it is called sleep paralysis. Often, I have seen very strange entities in such sleep states. I do have positive experiences too. A couple of months ago I was awake, but felt intense heat in my spine, and drifted into a state of being partially asleep and for some time, I saw flashes of white light. It felt like some kind of 'kundalini' awakening, and it felt positive really.
I have not read much of the symbolic- semiotic structuring approach, but I would think that it possibly includes a more mythic emphasis. Do you think that this is more important than biological aspects of dreaming? One psychoanalyst who I read briefly, was Walter Bion and he thought that certain structuring or organisation of memories was important in being able to get to sleep. I think that this is probably true, because I often have difficulty getting off to sleep and it is about the way thoughts intrude and dominate consciousness. I often feel envious of people who can just put their head down on a pillow and fall asleep straight away.
I like to take on board all the different approaches really. I definitely think that the mythic dimension of dreams is extremely important because it is as if we enter the realm of story when we sleep. Also, those stories seem much wider than our individual lives, but I may be following the Jungian approach in saying this.
But the question here isn't about whether animals have a subconscious; it's about what this implies regarding dream meanings and dream interpretations. I have an eerie feeling that a lot of the speculation here is anthropocentric. As animals, we nevertheless are quite unique in our richness of language (as far as I'm aware); we can be perplexed by our dreams, pull each other aside, talk about them, ponder about them, and so on. We can visit a specialist to analyze the dream and try to find it's meaning. But sleep and dreams are far more ancient than our lingual mastery; so if the dreams do have a purpose, either something's special about us lingual types dreaming, or the bat's dreams also have them.
It's not surprising that we try to interpret our dreams and find meaning in them. I'm not sure if a bat tries to do the same thing, but she does dream, and she may remember some dreams. A countering hypothesis is that dreams don't "mean" things as such, but rather are interpretable simply because they reflect certain features of mind organization. Another countering hypothesis is that dreams don't really "mean" anything at all; that the entire act of interpreting a dream's meaning is akin to pondering why the gods sent that thunderstorm our way.
My own experience is not "negative" as such. The only "unpleasant" sensation is the complete inability to move the physical body. This tends to happen on waking from sleep. I'm not terribly convinced by the medical description of sleep paralysis though there may be some truth to it. I think what is really happening is that that the astral body (ochema) is out of alignment with the physical body, e.g., during sleep, and then it takes some time to realign itself with the physical body. One of the more interesting phenomena that accompanies this is a sensation of what I can only describe as a form of "electrical discharge" like a mini-lightning passing through the body. This is said to be normal when the soul returns to the physical body after an out of body experience (OBE), whether spontaneous or controlled.
This may be so in some or most cases. But what abut dreams in which the dream events actually occur in real life one or two days later? This seems to have implications that go far beyond the issue of "meaning" or "interpretation".
The astral body or vehicle (ochema) is the soul’s chariot in Plato’s Chariot Allegory in the Phaedrus (246a–254e).
Plato, Phaedrus, section 246b (tufts.edu)
But it is also mentioned in Plotinus, Iamblichus and others.
I don't think it is "New Agery" at all. It is anti-materialism in the venerable tradition of some of the greatest philosophers in history such as Plato, Plotinus and many others.
Quoting 180 Proof
[quote=Bill Hicks (1961 - 1994) American stand-up comedian, social critic, satirist, and musician]I don't know what you all believe in and I don't really care.
As long as we're making shit up, go hog-wild, you know.[/quote]
But then...
[quote=Hamlet]There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.[/quote]
I don't want to ruffle your feathers 180 Proof but I think you should see this, you too Jack Cummins
August Kekulé (1829 - 1896)
Ouroboros
To both Jack Cummins & 180 Proof
Since I've put you both in the right frame of mind, might I suggest a certain approach, a systematic methodology to, dare I say it?, interpret dreams?
I'll only get the ball rolling, where you want to go with it is entirely up to you two of course.
It's my personal opinion that we humans are mainly interested in causality - our brains seem to be wired that way as evidenced by how humanity, taken as a whole, has interacted both within, among ourselves, and without, with the world. From ancient religions to modern science, it's been all about causality, causality, causality, and more causality.
Given this is so, the mind, when dreaming, could be tapping into the causal web [the interconnected complex network of causes and effects] if such can be thought to exist and thus accessed by the mind in certain, as of yet unknown, states, dreaming being one of them.
If you humor my hypothesis then it becomes quite obvious what the next step is in our quest to understand dreams. Causation, as Hume succinctly described it, requires temporal (time) and spatial (space) contiguity. The former, if you'll allow me some wiggle room, is just another name for coincidence and Carl G. Jung's (1875 - 1961) idea of synchronicity may come in handy although Jung was very clear that synchronicity should be viewed as an Acausal Connecting Principle :point: Synchronicity (Book).
As for the latter (space/venue), it seems secondary to coincidences(time) if one takes into consideration Action at a distance. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955), a friend of Jung's was dead against such an idea and famously called it Spooky action at a distance. Anyway, Jung was interested in the paranormal and action at a distance, spooky or not, was part and parcel of paranormal phenomena (ESP/Sixth Sense, Psychokinesis) [Warning 180 Proof: woo-woo.
In short, focus on, investigate, the time aspects of dreams and see if you can somehow discover coincidences in them. If you find one, it might point you in the right direction; mind you, the coincidences don't have to be causal (acausal connecting principle), instead think of them as slice of time and whichever events might've happened "simultaneously" from a certain frame of reference (Relativity Of Simultaneity) will show up together in one's dreams. I won't go into spatial aspects of dreams for the reasons that space seems not as important as time for causality (spooky action at a distance vis-à-vis the paranormal) and maybe, just maybe, the dreaming mind may only be concerned with time, blocking out or ignoring space completely. Timing might possibly be the determining factor for causality.
That's all I could think of. I hope it was helpful Jack Cummins, Jungian buff and I hope it was entertaining 180 Proof if only because you got wind of how woo-woo, woo-woo can get.
Adios Señoras/Señoritas, as the case may be.
P.S. There's a coincidence hidden in this post. Can you spot it? Hint: Jung!
Thanks for your reply. I hadn't really given up on the thread but, spent most of the afternoon unable to get into the site, and it's a hot day. I am interested in your response because I am wishing to think about dreams in a systematic way. It did seem that the thread began going into the a bit of a 'woo woo' direction and I struggle with balancing those sort of philosophies with critical analysis.Perhaps, I will write a thread on that at some point.
I have read Jung's ideas on synchronicity and I do think time comes into the picture. I realise that the idea of synchronicity is not one of causality, and I see it more as being about patterns. I do believe that precognitive experiences in dreams and in waking life involve patterns and being able to tune into patterns. I know that I have experienced premonitions and I had to work out that they were not causally related.
One minor synchronicity, in relation to what we are discussing in this post, is that on Friday, I saw a book on synchronicity, and I am not even sure who the author was. I didn't buy it, but decided to go back and buy it yesterday but it was gone. Earlier this afternoon, I was feeling rather irritable about that because I saw it as important in connection with this thread, and, now, you have come up with the relevance of the idea of synchronicity.
I definitely think that the idea of 'spooky action at a distance' has some bearing. But, it is so hard to come up with answers which don't sound like complete woo woo gobbledegook. Somehow, it brings me back to an idea which I wrote a thread on a couple of months ago, the idea of the holographic model of reality, and I know that theory mentioned precognitive experiences as being due to patterns reflected in different parts.
I do wonder about time though, and whether it really is linear, although it could be that it is collapsed in dream reality and I believe that JB Priestley said something along that line in his book, 'Man and Time'. Rather than ask whether waking reality is an illusion, we could ask if time is an illusion?
Anyway, I will give the matter some further thought, but finish here as my room is boiling hot and I am a bit stuck in thinking clearly at the moment.
Quoting Apollodorus
You mean by encouraging lucid dreaming?
Not necessarily. Just soliciting some kind of answer to the question as to why you have no dreams or if you have, why you can't remember them.
Presumably, the subconscious is a form of consciousness that is part of yourself. If true, then it should understand the question and come up with some kind of answer.
You may not get your answer immediately, or you may get a "coded" one, or again, no answer at all.
But there is no harm trying it as a practical experiment. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain should the experiment be successful. If so, it will be something we all can learn from.
Language is only about 150k yr old and life has been on this planet allot longer then that
And like i said (to me) the only difference between this realm and the dream realm is that this realm is held together by language and group belief and i say that for many reasons thst im not going to go into in this thread because it would take far to long and i would get way to side tracked so i will try to stay on point.
I feel that we have such a hard time understanding dreams because we've grown accustomed to using only one Avenue for understanding things and that is language
you most likely don't know how to use a spear to kill your lunch if you've lived in the city your entire life and that's only because you haven't had the practice where is somebody that does it daily can "catch his lunch" relatively easy
And so apply that mentality to language and a world not held together by language. So in a world that does not have language as its means of fundamental communication that means that it has some other form of fundamental communication and from what I can see the form of communication that predates mankind in his opinions and habits and styles is the communication of experience because why else would it be anything different? Because there's one thing that all animals have in common with us and likewise us with them and that is that we all experience
And so this is why when you dream you have crazy experiences that are obviously not literal that is because experience is like talking is to us it's just that our minds are so atrophied to that aspect of life that we don't understand it much like you can't expect a two month old baby to give a speech on quantum mechanics and not mumble his words.
I do think that language does limit our understanding of dreams, as it does of the waking world. But, I think that this is especially true of dreams because they have a way of going beyond logic. For example, I sometimes find that I am with one person and they change into another person within the dream.
I believe that the paintings of the surrealist capture certain aspects of the dream world. I have one significant dream experience which I would really like to paint or draw. But, it is difficult to draw the contents of the dream because you can't keep it still enough to sketch. But, I do plan still plan to make a piece of art based on the dream.
But, I do think dreams can be likened to forms of art. I don't watch many movies but I am sure that they could be compared to them. I think that they can be inspiration for the arts. But, definitely, they are so different from the literal, even though I do believe that even too much of waking life can be interpreted too literally as well.
You are quite right to say that the difference between a person and an animal having dreams is that the person will try to interpret dreams whereas the animal won't. We don't really know that much about animals' minds, but I wonder if they are able to differentiate between waking reality and dreams at all.
It is true that we look for meanings, and even meanings behind meanings. It may be that we analyse too much, but it does seem that our minds are seeking explanations for almost everything, and if we can't truly find these we almost try to force them.
I think not. Our brains are adapted for making trial & error correlations (i.e. shallow information domains from which to derive heuristics for parochial tasks, crafts & arts) to facilitate survival; subsequently, however, in human cultural development, inferring causal relations (i.e. deep information domains that generate algorithms for theoretical explanations) is exapted for mathematizing (predictive) models, (control) systems & machines.
Human brains do what all other mammalian brains do: coordinating perceptions and behaviors based on trial & error correlations (best guesses) of events, or regularities, which in our local environments improves reproductive fitness and survival chances. Natural selection shows, Fool, that our mammalian brains are, in fact, fundamentally survival engines and not "truth" (causation) engines. Food gathering and sex are species norms; science and engineering, however, are species exceptions even for an exceptional species like h. sapiens.
That works for me.
Quoting 180 Proof
Well put! What's interesting though is to become successful survival engines, living organisms must be truth engines. To assume otherwise would be like thinking it's possible to be a philosopher without giving a damn about truth - philosophizing is about caring about truth just like survival is.
Have you not read any Richard Rorty? :razz:
Nonsense. Propositions are truth-bearers, so explain to me how any species without discursive language produces, assents to or communicates truths. C'mon, Fool. :sweat: Besides, species which survive are naturally selected for their adaptive traits – they "become survival engines" by not dying off.
I think this definition of truth is too narrow, I would even go so far as to say that you're guilty of anthropocentrism by restraining truth to human language. Animals that lack human [s]level[/s] like languages can and surely must handle truth for they can't afford to lose touch with reality, doing so would be nearly always fatal to them.
Quoting 180 Proof
My thoughts exactly - the would have to know the difference between what's edible and what's inedible and to whom they're edible and aren't these truths, truths they would need to know to survive?
I've on a few occasions had dreams where i became 100% lucid as in i was 100% the "me" that i am when awake and to top it off I was having one of the level 4 dreams as i like to call them
They make real life seem like some old Nintendo video game on a broken TV screen LOL everything is so sharp and vibrant and high definition and you can feel every fiber body and you can feel the air as it goes in your lungs it's like your completely integrated into everything Everything You Touch taste smell is a thousand times more than you do in the waking state yet somehow you can comprehend it in the moment and in this state you can experience a ridiculous amount of information within just a few split seconds of actual reality in fact one time I lay down to go to sleep and instantly fell into this state the second my head hit the pillow and i had a long vivid dream then woke up from the dream plane exploding and I jerked so hard that i came off the bed like I had bounced off of it and freaked my wife out because she said i had just closed my eyes 3 to 5 sec before freaking out .
I was surprised to see that the clock hadn't even changed the minute hand yet! . how the mind can take in that much info 8n a few sec is crazy .
I believe that you are correct to point to the way in which dreams affect us. I can certainly say that I have days which are under a cloud on account of a strong dream. While I am sometimes relieved on waking up from a bad dream, to realise it was a dream, I definitely experience ones which do disturb me.
One aspect of this is I am sometimes disturbed not by the actual events in the dream but my own actions in the dream. I do things and have thoughts which I am ashamed of. I wonder if morality is a bit different in dreams. I am conscious of certain thoughts which I have in dreams and often these recur, and I have to realise that these are ones which I try to push out of my waking consciousness.
I think that the experiences within dreams also are learning experiences. As we are not confined to time and space within dream reality we can have all sorts of adventure and misadventures beyond our immediate life circumstances. I do wonder if part of the purpose of dreams is to enable us to gain experience without having to wait until experiences manifest. We can experience so much in a very short period of time. I have sometimes had a a whole series of dreams, and feel that I have been asleep for many hours and discover that I have only been sleeping for about an hour. In giving us these lessons dream consciousness is like a teacher. It is also cumulative and I think that some dreams must be important when we get recurring dreams.
I do agree that there do appear to be different levels, or even dimensions in dream reality. I think that experiences vary as well, because I have heard of people who only dream in black and white, or are unsure if there are any colours in their dreams. I can frequently remember vivid colours in my dreams. However, I am not sure if I ever experience the sensations of smell or taste in my dreams at all. I know that I talk in my sleep because I have been told that I do. I don't think that I have ever sleepwalked, but I have heard of people who do. I know that I throw my duvet all over the place and I think that I have ended up waking up on the floor on a few occasions. But, I am sure that we all vary so much.
Quoting Jack Cummins
Really liked the way you put it there. It might be true indeed. Like soul signals that someone should try to get the general meaning of them. For sure there are much more to be discovered about them. It's like a whole unknown universe yet.
I'm having trouble with the quote feature on this platform so bear with me well I do a copy and paste jerry-rig real quick
>>>am a bit surprised that you had such long times of pronounced dreaming. I presume that you were able to get up do some activities, like eat and drink. <<<<
I think you misunderstood exactly how I experienced those dreams so I will try to rephrase it a little bit
The way I experienced those long dreams is not comprehendible and the reason I confidently say that It's not comprehendible is because me being the one that had them I cannot fully comprehend them like I did when they happened if that makes any sense?
Because over the course of about two or three days they faded into just being a memory and I made it back into reality so to speak and while feeding back into reality I had to lose the majority of those memories because how I experienced it was somehow I experienced every day of waking up going to work getting a job getting promoted moving packing a moving truck dealing with crap at work again taking my kid here and there every single day of life in a linear fashion not just as a memory but as a everyday experience so in my mind 3 months had gone by linearly day after day not in passing memory and so upon waking up and realizing it had only been one actual night in fundamental reality this clearly caused confusion and a lot of emotions because now the process started of me getting my cognition back to normal but to do so I had to lose the linearity of all those memories and I had to turn it into a smaller past memory or reference memory is some call it.
I know it doesn't make any sense how on Earth could somebody dream of day-to-day life not skipping through it for three solid months within only one night it sounds crazy and I can't even really imagine it even though I did it and I don't want it to happen again because it made me question the value of everything and on top of that left me in a very confused state where I did not leave the house for a few days until I came back to normal felt a little unhealthy for the mind LOL
>>>I also hope that you have a supportive network, because I don't think that I would ever get enough peace from others and various duties.<<<
nope I'm a one-man wolf pack lol.
>>>I do have an ongoing interest in dreams, but probably also see it in the context of some other perspectives, including ideas such as Aboriginal dreamtime and shamanic journeys. I believe that it is a fascinating area, but I do think that there are some potential dangers, like having difficulty with making a way back to reality.<<<
I do too that is in fact one the reasons I stopped pursuing it was I had does long dreams and then I also had dreamed that it appeared as if a hitman was trying to dispose of me and almost succeeded I don't want to go into detail on it but it was quite scary.
From what you say, it seems as if you had an extremely difficult time and it was probably a good thing that you took a break from pursuing long dreams. It is important to keep dreaming within balance and I believe that it should be able to help in life, rather than have be as so you describe as 'scary'.
I agree . and yes it was an interesting time in my life I was going through several life and perspective shifts and as they say when it rains it pours..
After thinking about the idea of 'soul signals', I am thinking that the purpose of dreams is probably so much of an individual pursuit or interest. Dreaming, like any aspect of life, such as physical fitness, diet or art, is something which can be paid attention to or ignored. It exists in the background for most people, and it can even be cultivated into the practice of lucid dreaming, although this practice is not an easy endeavour.
As it involves the mind, dreaming has been paid attention to by the psychologists and psychoanalysts. It has also Been a source for artistic creation and imagination. Some have developed it in conjunction with spiritual philosophies. And, I also wonder whether the neuroscientists will find ways to enhance people's dream lives in the future.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57399288
:death: :flower:
Thinking of following the example and retiring to the vita simplex et contemplativa yourself then?
That's an interesting story of a nun. Funnily enough, when I was a teenager I knew a couple of girls who really wished to become nuns. I think it was almost a romance, and they ended up having extramarital affairs and getting pregnant. I often wonder where they are now, as I wonder about the boy I knew, who introduced me to Jung and Freud, but declaring that he wished to die within 5 years when he was 16.
Anyway, I am out reading a book on transpersonal psychology and philosophy, including a few chapters on lucid dreaming. I just logged onto my phone and was glad to see that my thread has not died yet. Anyway, I hope that you and others continue, in any form of discussion which is helpful, because when I write threads I see them as having potential for all kinds of thought and speculation, way beyond my initial ideas.
I sent a reply to Proof, but I am also glad to see that you are still engaged in discussion on the thread too. I do believe that there is more to discuss about dreams. At the moment, I am reading on the transpersonal school of philosophy, and I wonder if you have read much in this direction?
To be quite honest, transpersonal philosophy or psychology to me tends to evoke the image of school leavers going off to India to fill the ashrams, babble about “shakti” and “chakras” and ingest rather too many substances of the kind I would advise even my worst enemies against. In other words, what 180 referred to as “New Agery”. For some reason Jung’s advice against dabbling in Eastern spirituality (I think it was in Yoga and the West) that I read a few years back has never left me.
I have read some stuff by Wilber but it sounds very much like Advaita Vedanta coached in Western jargon and I usually prefer to go to the sources than have them interpreted for me by self-styled “gurus” and “experts”. Other than that, if it has anything to add to Plato and Plotinus, I don’t mind having a quick look at it, time permitting. 180 apparently has a degree in psych so maybe he knows more about it.
I feel that you are probably not aware of a whole tradition of thought which draws upon the past, including writings such as John of the Cross on the dark nights of the soul, and many divergent trends from various disciplines. I do see the whole area as being comprised of many perspective from the past and the present.
I have deep respect for psychology, but in the last five years, I am sure that I have met over a thousand people with psychology degrees. Some are much wiser than others. I engage with @180 Proof on a regular basis, and I do think that his ideas are extremely helpful, especially in enabling me to think critically about the 'woo woo' areas of philosophy.
I also think that you have made an extremely unusual but valid contribution to the consideration of ideas on this site. Indirectly, it was you who drew attention to Plato's 'Phaedro' which is probably ranked as the most important discussion on this site in recent times.
As for myself, I am interested in philosophies ranging from the ancient to the ones arising within the current times. I am interested in most traditions of current thought, but I may be the only person interested in the tradition of transpersonal philosophy. I may give up communicating on this forum at all, because sometimes it feels as though the agenda is just about the question of whether God exists or not. I believe that there is so much more to discuss, in terms of human experiences, and the possibilities of experience. I have an interest in philosophies ranging from the ancient Greeks to the ones of our times, and my main reason for continuing to engage on this site is the dialogue of all these ideas.
However, I am extremely interested in how dreams come into play in all of this, ranging from the personal, to the wider panorama of the human condition. But, I am not sure that the whole discussion can be based on philosophy of the ancients, and dismissing the ideas which have occurred in the last century. Saying that, I am sure that many on this site, probably see dreaming as being of so little significance for philosophy at all.
I'm not saying it isn't interesting. And of course I know of John of the Cross and others. The problem is that this is a field of knowledge that has been largely neglected by science and even by mainstream psychology with the result that when you discuss these issues it tends to sound like "New-Age speak" which puts some people off or gives the impression that it doesn't belong on a philosophy forum, especially one with strong materialist (not to say anti-spiritual) inclinations. This applies particularly when addressing personal experiences.
I am probably interested in what has been neglected, and that is probably why I feel demoralised at times at the forum, even though do get a fair amount of responses. However, I have just started a new thread for better or worse, and I may be my own worst enemy. I sometimes throw myself into the deep end, and ask all sorts of almost impossible questions...
It's always seemed to me that the question What is the real? persists unavoidably because it frames all other questions insofar as they (absolutely) presuppose it. Philosophical discourse reflects on its "ground rules", so to speak, even as philosophers strive to raise probative questions without begging them and thereby gradually unlearn irrational (i.e. self-immiserating) habits. In other words: Is the real "God", "gods" or godless? and the ontological, axiological & epistemological implications of these aporia, respectively. In the end, one decides on which aporia ("ground rules") to commit to, as much on that philosophically comparative basis as on an existential-exigent basis.
Logos confronting, or reflecting on, mythos (but within the hermeneutical context of mythos) was once the grounds for doing philosophy and, I think, still is; otherwise, Jack, why bother? For me, and I suspect you too like most others here, the so-called "alternatives" – pseudo-intellectual "guru self-help" sophistries – amount to nothing more than philosophical suicide (Camus) aka "wankery".
I am glad that I am still getting replies in this thread, but I have just got home so I will reply tomorrow.
I know that at times I may come across like as going in the direction of 'self-help guru', but I hope that is not only what I am about. I am interested in 'logo reflecting on mythos' as a ground but just come from strange angles. But, I don't want to be a 'philosophical suicide', and I guess 'a rock'n'roll suicide' may be better.
I think that I have probably been writing on the site a bit too much, and I think that it is because I used to have a job and, now, I don't really know how to channel my energies. I am looking for work daily, and get rather despondent. Perhaps, I would be better just listening to music, or dreaming...