Problem of pain
So theists say God never has to suffer trials but that he can't create humans who experience happiness without allowing them to suffer first. This seems to me to imply 1) that God would be inferior to us and 2) that God has defects because he can't create us like him. My conclusion is that God doesn't exist. Believing in God doesn't make me happy or a better person. As far as I'm concerned it's just a confused state of mind
Comments (43)
Some people actually need god to be happy and ethical; they need the threat of eternal damnation and have masochistic cravings for vicarious and literal-minded redemption in the eyes of a creator who would see us suffer.
One of the reasons that religion is meaningful is that man needs something above himself to base his morality on. With this foundation, he rationalizes every damn thing and ends up committing great atrocities in the name of his intellectual depravity.
That is assuming god exists; if god does not exist then revelation is merely another morality devised by men, wholly like any other ethical theory people might come up with and perpetrate injustices in the name of - except religion cannot have any competitors.
Btw, you can click on the dots below your comment then the pencil and then you can edit what you have written.
The beauty of it is that it does not matter whether God exists or not. If you believe in a power higher than yourself, this supplies a moral compass (higher than what man is capable of) to follow. Otherwise, man uses his intellect to cook-up all kinds of mischief.
My point is that an ethical accepted on faith is no more valid than an ethic arrived at through reason. In fact, I would say the one arrived at through reason is superior.
Look at human history. It's not the case. When God disappears, all Hell breaks loose.
So you believe that mortal man can derive an ethic that is superior to God, (who happens to be all-everything)? That's reaching a bit, no?
Just because some tremendously evil despots were atheist doesn't mean that atheism, or just a lack of belief in god, is a system of beliefs that motivates people to do evil things. That requires actual, enshrined beliefs, such as ultranationalism.
How so?
Quoting Gregory
That's not what it's about which is why it doesn't make sense to you. You are treating this as it is some kind of contest. God provides a framework. You aspire to live your life the best you can using the Ideal as a mentor (so to speak). If doesn't matter whether God is real or imagined, just that S/He has laid down what is the proper path (which is a bit different from culture to culture, but pretty much the same).
That's what Kant said and I like his philosophy.
Perhaps, but man has demonstrated that he needs guidance. On his own, he comes up with all kinds of ways to rationalize every damn thing. Just look at what the elite and their lackeys in the professional/administrative classes have been doing over the last 50 years or so in the West.
I like people, but get more than two of them together and its no so wonderful. Even if you believe that individuals can get it together, certainly groups cannot. This is why the U.S. Constitution was written to work for a God-fearing people only. The Founders knew it would not work for those who believed they could figure it out on their own...and this has been known for a long, long time.
But our independence is important. To be a sheep can become a disease
Guidance from a god that would have us suffer for no apparent reason? A god that would have us stone a woman to death for being an adulteress? That would have us discriminate against LGBTQ people?
How about no.
Quoting synthesis
Yes, tribalism is an issue, but if anything religion reinforces tribalistic thinking; quite a few Jewish people, for instance, seem to believe that it is okay to steal Palestinian land on the basis that it was given to them by god.
Quoting synthesis
No, the constitution was written precisely for the people who thought that they could figure it out on their own; the point of the constitution was to guarantee equality before the law, freedom of speech/the press, etc. These are all measures to protect the vulnerable and allow for dissent. You seem to be describing a theocracy, not a constitutional republic.
Well God for me is the reason I had for being good as a child. I don't like when people try to prove God
God is not man's creation of God. You have to transcend the stories and get into the heart of the matter. The stories were written for another time. I am sure somebody could write contemporary stories that you would like better, but that's not the point.
God is two things. One, He provides a moral ideal, a place to seek guidance when the weaker parts of us want to dominate. More importantly, all religion implores its followers to go beyond the words and seek those deeper things that vex us all.
Religions fight each other
Yes, I'm sure we could write some contemporary stories about, for instance, supremacists stealing the land of the dehumanized based on a belief in being the chosen people. Or maybe about forcing raped women to carry their babies to term? Or perhaps about all of the LGBTQ people in the more grim corners of the world who chafe under the yoke of Christian oppression?
But then why do people try to prove there is a God instead of keeping it in personalistic terms? When I hear these people it's like they are forcing their father on me and insisting he is looking at me with actual eyeballs all the time. I act morally, I have a sense for the spiritual, and I love my actual dad. But then they go trying to prove that it's a historical fact that Jesus is God and I'm like "I tried Christianity and it's not helping my life anymore" but they say I must be bad. Instead of denying their Jesus they will throw other people under the bus and accuse them. This is the face of most religion
Because the prospect of ruling over the world is so attractive.
I would also add that Christians don't think Jesus died just as an example of love or to give us strength. It's about atonement for them. God becomes man they say so that man can become God, which means taking on God's merits. They take a highly personal thing (sin and goodness) and believe bad people (who they think is everyone) can swap their demerits for God's merits just by having faith. It's an enticing doctrine but is clearly demonic. Christians aren't authentic. I bet even Jesus doesn't truly believe in Jesus. It's all play acting and the opposite of humility because Christianity is not authentic
Believing God literally exists is creepy for a lot of us
Not reaching at all. As men are interpreting their "version" of what God intends (the existence of God is irrelevant since there is no direct intervention or direction provided by God) any ethic is derived from man, not God. Therefore, all ethics are derived from man and are of equal stature. Horrific things have been done in the name of religion, I would put money that more have been done on behalf of "divinity" than simply "because". I can't be wrong if "God will it."
"kill them all. God will know his own."
That is certainly a commonly held view. I am not so sure it works. One of the problems with religion is that it doesn't offer a moral foundation. What it does offer is many conflicting ideas which are interpreted chaotically or cherry picked by religious followers for subjective reasons and often in atrocious ways.
Which is why on issues like abortion, the role of women, capital punishment, euthanasia, homosexuality, drug use - believers contradict each other, all thinking they have God's view on the issues covered. Christianity can lead to the KKK or to Martin Luther King. With religious morality what you have is subjectivity - people making choices about right and wrong, based on personal preferences and interests. God scarcely comes into it.
This probably helps to explain why so many atrocities are committed by believers. Just look at the countless child abuse cases world wide, committed, perpetuated and covered up by every level of religious belief and church groups.
Definition of "atheism" - A philosophical system for explaining to people who don’t believe in God why you don’t either.
Look at it this way. Man had to create God as a giver of that which man ultimately aspires. It doesn't matter if it is man's thoughts and words, only that it comes from a higher source (whether it does or not).
Religious people go back and forth on this all the time and eventually figure out that they cannot figure it out (or it doesn't matter). The point is...there must be somewhere you can go to consider the moral path when the not-so-prudent part of us rears its ugly head.
Humans, being the way we are, desire perfect systems. Religion is anything but. The Ten Commandments is a good example of a moral foundation. What each individual does with it is another matter. It's not like you buy religion from Amazon with free 2-day shipping and free returns.
Quoting Tom Storm
Each religion kind of spells things out. People do all kinds of things with it, though. It's like sports fans. Most are just casual observers while others completely immerse themselves in it. It's actually a great thing that this is way it is because when everybody starts thinking the same way, horrific things start happening.
Quoting Tom Storm
I guess that's why we've never won the "species of the year" award at the planetary awards ceremony.
Why do you think that is?
As an aside, I have been a very serious Zen student for over thirty years and at one point took a couple of years off to dedicate myself to full-time Zen (meditation practice at a Zen Center).
Once in a while, teachers from the local colleges and high schools would bring their students to the Zen center to check it out. The looks on these kids faces were incredible to behold as they were completely freaked out by the whole thing.
I worked a lot in the garden and when the students got near, I would say, "hello," and they wouldn't know what to do. Some would kind of smile and other would just scurry away. What really threw them was everybody dressed in their black meditation robes in the zendo (meditation hall). I am sure most felt wonderful heading out of there!
People are just really unsure of what's going on when it comes to religion/spirituality. It's a good thing. :)
Because it is like saying someone's else's father (maybe Jesus?) is super perfect and is your true father. It's rather intruding
Yes. People want to believe in a God "as they understand it" (NA, AA, ect)
Something that makes you uncomfortable is making you think and grow. It's a good thing!
Quoting Gregory
Religion works on many different levels, and...
...as it is said, "There are no atheists in the foxhole."
Well ye I'm not saying get rid of religion. But we have the right to voice our arguments and feelings
Foxholes? I saw someone set someone else completely on fire once and I didn't think of God once. I called the police but if I get scared I never think of God
You can say whatever you like...and should.
I guess the idea of the saying is that when we are scared enough, we hedge our bets! :)