On Dreaming and Qualia

Quoting Shawn

Namely, the mind can encapsulate the sum total of what space 'feels' like, what sound, 'sounds' like (ever hear music in a dream as if played on a device; but, in a dream), and what food 'tastes' like.

Yet, these, feelings, sounds, and tastes are not entirely qualia. They are actual experiences, reified through the brain's hardware into a phenomenological experience that can be what is called 'dreaming'.

It is intriguing that when one experiences these amalgamates of past experiences that is what one would call a 'qualia'.

When you say "these amalgamates of past experiences", are you referring to dreams? If so, then you have already told us that these "are not entirely qualia".

Quoting Shawn

How does one express this in terms of knowledge and language?

We could just call them dreams, as you have done in your OP.

Quoting Luke

When you say "these amalgamates of past experiences", are you referring to dreams? If so, then you have already told us that these "are not entirely qualia".

I am not entirely certain. It seems to me that when one experiences something on top of what is or has been experienced, then the denotation of 'qualia' applies to the phenomenon of experiencing, doesn't it?

Quoting Shawn

It seems to me that when one experiences something on top of what is or has been experienced

How does one experience something on top of what one experiences?

Quoting Luke

How does one experience something on top of what one experiences?

In a dream this happens all the time. Everything in a dream is qualitative in manner to be more clear, with the observer or subject further experiences these qualia...

Reply to Shawn I don't understand what having one experience on top of another means.

Quoting Luke

I don't understand what having one experience on top of another means.

Let me provide an example:

Listening to Mozart whilst in a dream is what can be called a qualia?

Quoting Shawn

Let me provide an example:

Listening to Mozart whilst in a dream is what can be called a qualia?

Is Mozart on in the background (in reality) while you are asleep, or are you dreaming of hearing Mozart?

Quoting Luke

or are you dreaming of hearing Mozart?

Yes

Quoting Shawn

Yes

I wouldn't consider that an experience on top of another experience; it's just part of the dream experience. There is something it is like to have a dream, just as there is something it is like to listen to Mozart in reality. This is the distinction I would draw between the two qualia or qualitative experiences.

Quoting Luke

I wouldn't consider that an experience on top of another experience; it's just part of the dream experience. There is something it is like to have a dream, just as there is something it is like to listen to Mozart in reality. This is the distinction I would draw between the two qualia or qualitative experiences.

But, it's still a qualia to experience whilst dreaming, no?

Reply to Shawn Yes, dreams have a phenomenological, qualitative aspect (in my experience).

Quoting Shawn

The mind has the extraordinary capacity to encapsulate the totality of the world in a realistic manner.

Namely, the mind can encapsulate the sum total of what space 'feels' like, what sound, 'sounds' like (ever hear music in a dream as if played on a device; but, in a dream), and what food 'tastes' like.

The mind certainly has extraordinary capacity. However, how certain are you that it encapsulates the totality of the world in a realistic manner ?
What or whose world ? How do you if the mind is sound enough to capture anything, never mind everything, in a realistic manner ? What do you mean by 'realistic' ?

I don't think that it is possible. What does 'space' feel like to you ?

Quoting Shawn

Yet, these, feelings, sounds, and tastes are not entirely qualia. They are actual experiences, reified through the brain's hardware into a phenomenological experience

What do you understand by 'qualia' ?
Which mental states possess qualia:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/#Which

I am not sure I understand the process of how experiences are 'reified through the brain's hardware'.
Help me out here ?

Quoting Shawn

It is intriguing that when one experiences these amalgamates of past experiences that is what one would call a 'qualia'.

What an intriguing way to describe 'dreaming'.
Is it the case that dreams show only past experiences ?

Quoting Shawn

Everything in a dream is qualitative in manner to be more clear, with the observer or subject further experiences these qualia...

I think we need to know more about what 'dreaming' is.
What does it mean when we dream:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/284378

Quoting Luke

I wouldn't consider that an experience on top of another experience; it's just part of the dream experience. There is something it is like to have a dream, just as there is something it is like to listen to Mozart in reality. This is the distinction I would draw between the two qualia or qualitative experiences.

I agree that there is something it is like to have a dream - it seems to be a subjective mental state.
What fascinates is perhaps the level or nature of the consciousness involved.
There is perhaps more of a mystery to the experience of dreaming than a straightforward 'feeling'.

It is quite unique and complex.
I think dreaming includes not just the brain processing e.g. a replay of past actual events in a quite surreal manner but can pick up on things we missed or ignored.
It gives space to analyse in a weird way e.g. our feelings or relationships about someone.
This can be quite unsettling; they can feel so real that it can make a difference to how we view other people in our lives.
And yet, how reliable are they ?

Quoting Luke

Yes, dreams have a phenomenological, qualitative aspect (in my experience).

Yes. And that is only the start of how we think about the experience of whatever dreams we have.
Some people deny having any - or they simply can't remember.

Thanks @Shawn for discussion... :sparkle:

Quoting Amity

I am not sure I understand the process of how experiences are 'reified through the brain's hardware'.
Help me out here ?

Perhaps something along these lines....?
( having been introduced to Solms by @Daemon here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10867/what-does-consciousness-mean/p6 )

Why did empirical dream researchers reject Freud? A critique of historical claims by Mark SolmsG. William Domhoff

https://dreams.ucsc.edu/Articles/domhoff_2004c.html

'Neuropsychologist and psychoanalyst Mark Solms (1997) made a major contribution to dream research through his clinico-anatomical studies, which reveal the outlines of the neural network that underlies dreaming. However, in more recent work he misunderstands the history of the rapid eye movement (REM)/non-REM (NREM) controversy in a Freudian-serving way and ignores the considerable systematic empirical evidence that contradicts the key claims of the Freudian dream theory he is trying to revive. After summarizing Solms's claims about the history of laboratory dream research, this article suggests a different version of that history and summarizes the empirical findings that explain why Freudian theory is not considered viable by most dream researchers.'

Reply to Amity

Dreaming entails producing sensations or what I call 'qualia' from past experiences in an amalgamate manner. Manny of the experiences are qualitative in how they can reproduce sounds in a coherent manner from music you may have heard or to perceiving the nature of light in a dream.

It's fascinating to me to witness other people as if with a separate mind in a dream. What do you think?

Quoting Shawn

It's fascinating to me to witness other people as if with a separate mind in a dream. What do you think?

You mean observing people in your dream as if you are separate or outside the dream itself - or the people in the dream as having separate minds from you, or what ?

I just love it when I am aware that I am dreaming yet I am still having a conversation within the dream with a dream figure...sometimes I have to tell myself to wake up !!

The figures and settings are recognisable from the past but not necessarily so. And always changing - like a kaleidoscope :cool:

Quoting Amity

You mean observing people in your dream as if you are separate or outside the dream itself - or the people in the dream as having separate minds from you, or what ?

The people in the dream. Those mysterious homunculi that populate your dreams. Who the fuck are those people? =]

Quoting Shawn

Who the fuck are those people? =]

I wish I knew. Some are quite attractive and active. It's like a parallel universe :scream: