How do we understand light and darkness? Is this a question for physics or impossible metaphysics?

I am aware that the question which I raised about light and darkness is probably extremely complex, but I am also asking about how we understand the visible and invisible aspects of life. How do we understand these interconnected aspects of our experience? Of course, I realise that the invisible and visible, light and darkness, are probably a spectrum, rather than a binary split, although we may perceive these as being opposites.

As with almost any concept we have, we can try to analyze them in many different ways. If you are interested in light from a theoretical perspective, that is, how light works mind-independently, then physics tells you something about it. You can learn about colours or the speed of light, for example.

If you are interested in other aspects of light and darkness, you can read literature, poetry, etc. But any concept we use is extremely rich, complex and multifaceted.

I suppose that one thing that could be said about light is that we're very much visual creatures. We learn most by looking at the world, so in this sense we associate light with many profound qualities.

I think that in the end, you're stuck with finding something about these concepts that fulfill your own questions about them.

I'm try to be simple minded about things, so the one quote that I can share about this topic, would be this:

"It's always night or we wouldn't need light." - Thelonious Monk

What he means by this, is up to you. But he seems to me to be right. :)

“Only in the darkness can you see the stars.” ~MLK, Jr

Both physical and metaphorical (mystical) it seems to me.

Reply to Jack Cummins
There is some light. There is a lot of darkness.

Quoting Jack Cummins

Of course, I realise that the invisible and visible, light and darkness, are probably a spectrum, rather than a binary split, although we may perceive these as being opposites.

Quoting Jack Cummins

I am trying to connect the physical with the symbolic and metaphysical,

Quoting Manuel

If you are interested in other aspects of light and darkness, you can read literature, poetry, etc. But any concept we use is extremely rich, complex and multifaceted.

@Manuel Exactly.

Addressing the physical first:
[ Goethe, as a poet philosopher, has more to say and play with in the symbolic and metaphysical sense]

Goethe developed a Theory Of Colours.
All quotes from wiki.

Goethe was initially induced to occupy himself with the study of colour by the questions of hue in painting. "During his first journey to Italy (1786–88), he noticed that artists were able to enunciate rules for virtually all the elements of painting and drawing except color and coloring. In the years 1786–88, Goethe began investigating whether one could ascertain rules to govern the artistic use of color."[33]

In the preface to the Theory of Colours, Goethe explained that he tried to apply the principle of polarity, in the work—a proposition that belonged to his earliest convictions and was constitutive of his entire study of nature.[13]

Goethe outlines his method in the essay, The experiment as mediator between subject and object (1772).[19] It underscores his experiential standpoint. "The human being himself, to the extent that he makes sound use of his senses, is the most exact physical apparatus that can exist." (Goethe, Scientific Studies[14])

I believe that what Goethe was really seeking was not a physiological but a psychological theory of colours. —?Ludwig Wittgenstein, Culture and Value, MS 112 255:26.11.1931

Unlike his contemporaries, Goethe didn't see darkness as an absence of light, but rather as polar to and interacting with light; colour resulted from this interaction of light and shadow. For Goethe, light is "the simplest most undivided most homogeneous being that we know. Confronting it is the darkness" (Letter to Jacobi).

Based on his experiments with turbid media, Goethe characterized colour as arising from the dynamic interplay of darkness and light. Rudolf Steiner, the science editor for the Kurschner edition of Goethe's works, gave the following analogy:

Modern natural science sees darkness as a complete nothingness. According to this view, the light which streams into a dark space has no resistance from the darkness to overcome. Goethe pictures to himself that light and darkness relate to each other like the north and south pole of a magnet. The darkness can weaken the light in its working power. Conversely, the light can limit the energy of the darkness. In both cases color arises.
—?Rudolf Steiner, 1897[20]

Goethe expresses this more succinctly:[21]

[..] white that becomes darkened or dimmed inclines to yellow; black, as it becomes lighter, inclines to blue.
In other words: Yellow is a light which has been dampened by darkness; Blue is a darkness weakened by light...

Since the colour phenomenon relies on the adjacency of light and dark, there are two ways to produce a spectrum: with a light beam in a dark room, and with a dark beam (i.e., a shadow) in a light room.

Goethe recorded the sequence of colours projected at various distances from a prism for both cases (see Plate IV, Theory of Colours). In both cases, he found that the yellow and blue edges remain closest to the side which is light, and red and violet edges remain closest to the side which is dark. At a certain distance, these edges overlap—and we obtain Newton's spectrum.

Goethe on light and darkness.

Quoting wiki article: Goethe

In 1832, Goethe died in Weimar of apparent heart failure. His last words, according to his doctor Carl Vogel, were, Mehr Licht! (More light!)...

Throughout his life, Goethe had a deep fascination for the physical and metaphorical effects of light on humans. Whilst being best remembered now for his literary works, he himself believed the scientific treatise The Theory of Colours, which he published in 1810, to be his most important work.

Although a confirmed non-believer for almost all of his life, a year before dying Goethe sided with the eclectic Hypsistarian sect, writing in a letter to a friend that:

"A joyous light thus beamed at me suddenly out of a dark age, for I had the feeling that all my life I had been aspiring to qualify as a Hypsistarian."

He spent the evening before his death discussing optical phenomena with his daughter-in-law.

All of the above might lead us to believe that his celebrated deathbed cry of Mehr Licht! (More light!) was a plea for increased enlightenment before dying. The truth appears to be more prosaic. What he actually said (in German) was:

"Do open the shutter of the bedroom so that more light may enter".

-------------


I downloaded this thesis because it sounds interesting. Haven't read it yet...

Analysis of light metaphors in Goethe's 'Faust'

http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/islandora/object/fsu%3A253211#:~:text=This%20paper%20examines%20a%20series%20of%20light%20metaphors,to%20a%20blind%20man%20shortly%20before%20his%20death.

This paper examines a series of light metaphors in Goethe's Faust. The purpose is to display a connection between each light metaphor and major developments in Faust's character, namely his development from a restless scholar imprisoned in his study to a blind man shortly before his death. The order in which the light metaphors are introduced is not chronological; rather they follow a thematic sequence from night to day to night. The purpose of this particular progression is to show more clearly Faust's movement from one mindset to the next. The order, moonlight to rising sun to rainbow to setting sun to inner light, reinforces much of what is claimed in this paper's main argument. I assert that a series of light metaphors are connected to Faust as the subjective extensions and expressions of his thoughts about the nature of knowledge and man's place in relation to the Absolute in the wake of series of trials and tribulations. Furthermore, I argue that these light metaphors, when connected thematically as opposed to chronologically, trace the cyclical nature of Faust's, and possibly man's, intellectual enterprise. This thesis combines my own interpretation of the main text with those of other major scholars in the field in order to best argue my points. In the end it will be shown that the various light metaphors are connected to Faust's personal development and display the perennial disposition of human activity as he searches for truth and knowledge in a world of uncertainty.

And then there is the light and dark in Goethe's 'Kennst du das Land':
Parallel translations, here:
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/kennst-du-das-land-mignon-do-you-know-land.html

Do you know the land where the lemon-trees grow,
In darkened leaves the gold-oranges glow,
A soft wind blows from the pure blue sky,
The myrtle stands mute, and the bay tree high?
Do you know it well?
It’s there I’d be gone,
To be there with you, O, my beloved one!

Do you know the house? It has columns and beams,
There are glittering rooms, the hallway gleams,
Are those figures of marble looking at me?
What have they done, child of misery?
Do you know it well?
It’s there I’d be gone,
To be there, with you, O my true guardian!

Do you know the clouded mountain mass?
The mule picks its way through the misted pass,
And dragons in caves raise their ancient brood,
And the cliffs are polished, smooth, by the flood;
Do you know it well?
It’s there I would be gone!
It’s there our way leads!
Father, we must go on!

https://lyricstranslate.com

Reply to Jack Cummins I think your question is too difficult not only in its formulation, but also in the interpretation of such definitions as light or darkness and everything connected with it, I am also sure that this question is purely philosophical, because physics, for example, within its episteme is trying to answer the question as? and philosophy when asked why? and here we are faced with the problem that the concept of matter and, both darkness and light in physics does not in any way explain the very essence of this concept, therefore, in different disciplines, a different description of this concept can be traced, whether light or darkness can be physical objects or opposites is the eternal question of religion, poetry, philosophy and the general understanding of a person of good and evil who rests only on various formulations of these concepts, if in Chinese philosophy one can consider light and darkness as a struggle of opposites, then for example, Hegel interprets this as some kind of cognitive processes of the absolute spirit, because in absolute light there is nothing not visible as in absolute darkness

Quoting evtifron

in absolute light there is nothing not visible as in absolute darkness

Absolute light can blind, so that nothing is visible.

Quoting Absolute Light

"There are two kinds of light — the glow that illumines, and the glare that obscures."
? James Thurber
The power to create a blanket of absolute light. Sub-power of Light Manipulation. Opposite to Absolute Darkness.

The user can create a field of absolute light that blinds the targets either temporarily or permanently and may also dull or even completely negate the other senses. They are potentially able to generate light so intense it can completely obliterate objects in its path without heat.

Quoting Manuel

I'm try to be simple minded about things, so the one quote that I can share about this topic, would be this:
"It's always night or we wouldn't need light." - Thelonious Monk
What he means by this, is up to you. But he seems to me to be right

Quoting 180 Proof

Only in the darkness can you see the stars.” ~MLK, Jr
Both physical and metaphorical (mystical) it seems to me.

K.I.S.S. :sparkle: :kiss:

Plenty of quotes on light and darkness:
Quoting Famous quotes

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” — Martin Luther King, Jr.

“Hope is being able to see that there is light despite all of the darkness.” — Desmond Tutu

Reply to Manuel
Reply to 180 Proof
Thanks for replying to my question. After I had written the thread, I was rather worried that people would think that I had lost the plot entirely.I am interested in the matter on a physical and metaphysics level, and how these may be possibly interrelated.

The reason why I began thinking of it yesterday was because I was reading a book on states of consciousness by Anthony Peake. He was discussion the role of symbolism of light in peak experiences. He was also speaking about how melatonin in the brain generates our body rhythms, in accordance with light. In particular, this is connected with the patterns of night and day, including sleep. I know some people who take melatonin supplements to help them sleep, especially when this has been disturbed after working night shifts.

I was reflecting on this and the way in which light is essential to life. What would it be like to live in complete darkness? The closest people get to this is in blindness, and from discussion I have had with a few blind people, they do see some light and darkness, in the form of shadows.

It is interesting how there is so much symbolism of light in songs. Also, this features so much in music arising from altered consciousness, including the music of the Beatles and Velvet Underground, eg 'White Light, White Heat.'

Reply to Valentinus
Your statement, 'There is some light. There is a lot of darkness' may well be true, and that it may be that darkness is the background from which light appears, like the Gnostic demiurge, or void.

I was also thinking how Jung's idea of the shadow draws upon the symbolism of light.

Reply to Amity

:cheer:

Quoting Jack Cummins

I was reflecting on this and the way in which light is essential to life. What would it be like to live in complete darkness?

I suppose if one reflects back to before birth and one tries to imagine that state, that might be "closest to dark" out of everything.

There are some creatures which can survive with no light: marine life deep down on the bottom of the ocean.

Beyond that, light (and dark) can be used figuratively: his inner light is gone, it was a dark period of my life, it was as if a light turned on and I could see the answer to the problem. Light as knowledge, dark as ignorance. Light as in virtue, dark as in evil or bad, etc.

Heck my own profile pic is related to themes of dark and light. So it is very powerful imagery.

But it's hard to make sense of all its possible meanings and uses.

Reply to Amity

Thanks for your lengthy, detailed replies, especially about Goethe. I believe that he was familiar with esoteric thought, and the question which I have written probably falls more into esoteric traditions. I understand that Jung, who drew upon light and darkness symbolism, was familiar with Goethe's ideas. I am pleased to see you bringing in Rudolf Steiner's view, because I have read some of his writings and you are the first person who I have seen mention him on this site.

I think that religious imagery draws on symbolism of light and dark in a major way. One aspect of this is in the mythological accounts of the fall within the Christian tradition. Lucifer was an angel of light, who misused the light and incurred his own fall, and the this led to the fall of the angels and the consequent fall of mankind.

Light symbolism is central to church architecture, including the gothic depiction of darkness. In contrast, stained glass windows are designed in such a way as to draw and reflect light.

I do have another aspect which I wish to say, but I am going to incorporate it in joint reply to Manuel, because it is also relevant to a post he wrote a short while ago.

Reply to Manuel
Your profile pic is the album cover to Pink Floyd's 'The Dark Side of the Moon, a fantastic album, with immense light and dark symbolism.

Reply to Amity Reply to Manuel
Light is so powerful physically and symbolically. I know that I find light so glaring that it hurts my eyes, especially when opticians shine a torch in my eyes, and on a bright sunny day.

What I am thinking about in response to what you are both saying is how light seems to be part of many spiritual experiences. We even have the term enlightenment. But, one aspect of this is how people who have near death experiences usually speak of seeing an intense light. Also, the way my religious studies teacher explained Paul's conversion to Christ's teachings, was that he was struck down by a vision of the light, and I do believe that many mystical or cosmic consciousness experiences refer to light. Even the idea of the dark night of the soul, within mysticism, are framed within reference to a journey towards the light.

Quoting Jack Cummins

Your profile pic is the album cover to Pink Floyd's 'The Dark Side of the Moon, a fantastic album, with immense light and dark symbolism.

You have excellent taste in music. :wink:

Quoting Jack Cummins

Even the idea of the dark night of the soul, within mysticism, are framed within reference to a journey towards the light.

I remember a teacher of mine once saying that one of the most striking images of rationalists in general is that they describe there own ideas as being like a light suddenly turning on, getting some illumination when prior to that everything was obscure.

I've heard some people sometimes describe the first experience they ever had, or at least remember having, as the time when "the lights when on".

One of Carl Sagan's last books, was The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. We get some rays of light in amid near total darkness, meaning some insight in sea of ignorance or confusion. That's roughly right, I think.

Of course, there is much more to life than science, as we can get "light" from many sources, in different domains of our existence.

Reply to Jack Cummins :fire:

[quote=Anthem][i]Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in[/i][/quote]

[quote=End of the Night][i]Realms of bliss, realms of light
Some are born to sweet delight
Some are born to sweet delight
Some are born to the endless night[/i][/quote]

[quote=Eclipse][i]... and everything under the sun
is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed
by the moon.[/i]

"There is no dark side
of the moon really.
Matter of fact
it's all dark."[/quote]

[quote=Darkness][i]I could make a mark
if it weren't so dark
I could be replaced by
any bright spark
But darkness makes me fumble
For a key
to a door
that's wide
open[/i][/quote]

[quote=In God's Country][i]Set me alight
We'll punch a hole right through the night
Everyday the dreamers die
See what's on the other side[/i][/quote]

Eclipse:... and everything under the sun
is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed
by the moon.

"There is no dark side
of the moon really.
Matter of fact
it's all dark.

:clap:

Gets me every time. Fantastic quote.

Quoting Jack Cummins

I think that religious imagery draws on symbolism of light and dark in a major way. One aspect of this is in the mythological accounts of the fall within the Christian tradition. Lucifer was an angel of light, who misused the light and incurred his own fall, and the this led to the fall of the angels and the consequent fall of mankind.

Yes. That much is clear.
I haven't sung in church since my parents' funerals, about 4yrs ago.
But given that we have been looking at song lyrics, I looked up modern hymns - out of curiosity.

About the power of Jesus:
'Let Your Light Shine In The Darkness' - (with lyrics) New Scottish Hymns (4:43)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHgl-RMvfY

Quoting Jack Cummins

how light seems to be part of many spiritual experiences.

Yes. Seeing the light, even if only for a moment - I guess the scene can be set up by and for ourselves.
Chanting Incantations - Enchantment for the Disenchanted...

We might find a light sense of peace, gratitude and acceptance when we seek some kind of a meaningful connection with others. To take ourselves out of our own dark miserygutsiness.
[edit to add: a better expression = self-immiseration found here: @180 Proof :fire:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/530555 ]

However not 'everything under the sun is in tune' and it isn't a 'Matter of fact it's all dark'.

The one thing that gave me an 'Aha!' moment in a philo forum was early on.
I had been looking, I think, at Dennett v Chalmers - thinking I had to have a right answer to the question of consciousness or qualia. It had to be one or the other. But I kept finding bits I agreed with in both. *

Later. I read and struggled with Kierkegaard's 'Either/Or'.

Quoting Wiki - Either/Or

It outlines a theory of human existence, marked by the distinction between an essentially hedonistic, aesthetic mode of life and the ethical life, which is predicated upon commitment.
The aesthetic is the personal, subjective realm of existence, where an individual lives and extracts pleasure from life only for their own sake. In this realm, one has the possibility of the highest as well as the lowest. The ethical, on the other hand, is the civic realm of existence, where one's value and identity are judged and at times superseded by the objective world.

In simple terms, one can choose either to remain oblivious to all that goes on in the world, or to become involved. More specifically, the ethic realm starts with a conscious effort to choose one's life, with a choice to choose. Either way, however, an individual can go too far in these realms and lose sight of his or her true self. Only faith can rescue the individual from these two opposing realms. Either/Or concludes with a brief sermon hinting at the nature of the religious sphere of existence, which Kierkegaard spent most of his publishing career expounding upon. Ultimately, Kierkegaard's challenge is for the reader to "discover a second face hidden behind the one you see"[4] in him/herself first, and then in others.

* Someone suggested that it might be the case that both Chalmers and Dennett were right, in certain aspects.
I realised, then, that I didn't need a definitive and absolutely certain answer to any philosophical question. What a relief. I can deal with uncertainty... not knowing...but exploring...
It is not about either/or.
Black and white thinking is not for me.
There are so many colourful and imaginative ways of thinking, being or doing - why limit yourself ?

Reply to Manuel
Reply to 180 Proof
After discussing it, I am about to play 'The Dark Side of the Moon' because I haven't listened to it for such a long while.

Reply to Jack Cummins

Enjoy. :cool:

Quoting Jack Cummins

Are light and darkness purely physical?

Light intensity can be measured by a simple instrument, for example a digital sensor in a camera. But the subjective experience of light or darkness is a quale, "a quality or property as perceived or experienced by a person." We have no idea if qualia are purely physical or not; and if physical, by what means; and if not physical, what on earth can that even mean?

We certainly have detailed understanding of the physical mechanism. A bunch of photons hits our eye and gets focussed on the retina. Or in my case the photons my eyeglasses and get properly focused on the retina, since my eyeball is the wrong shape to correctly focus light by itself.

My retina sends an electrochemical signal to the visual cortex in my brain, and then (this is the part we don't understand) I have a subjective experience of seeing. I not only have an experience of seeing, I then have an emotional and/or cognitive response to what I see. If I see a nice meal in front of me I feel happy and hungry and desirous of eating. If I see an equation on a blackboard I try to understand it, or (avoiding that) ask if it will be on the test.

We understand everything there is to know (mostly I guess) about the physical aspect of how the photon signal gets to the cortex; but we understand nothing of the experience of perception and the association of that experience with other emotional and cognitive states. It's a real mystery.

But life would be pretty boring we had all the same physical responses to the outside world but no subjective experiences or awareness. Then we'd be a philosophical zombie. But boredom is a subjective experience too, p-zombies don't experience that. They don't experience anything at all. Being a p-zombie is not even boring!

Reply to fishfry
You have written a very good detailed reply. I have to admit that I struggle with the whole question of qualia. I know that it involves the subjective experience of properties, but it must connect to reality beyond us. Of course, light and darkness are based on the retinal reception, but it is connected to so much more. It makes me think that Bergson was probably right in speaking of the brain as filtering down process.

Quoting Jack Cummins

You have written a very good detailed reply. I have to admit that I struggle with the whole question of qualia. I know that it involves the subjective experience of properties, but it must connect to reality beyond us. Of course, light and darkness are based on the retinal reception, but it is connected to so much more. It makes me think that Bergson was probably right in speaking of the brain as filtering down process.

Thanks. Filtering down process. Reminds me Like Huxley's The Doors of Perception. "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern."

Regarding qualia, I myself find subjective experience to be evidence that we are not machines, and that physicalism is not sufficient to explain the mind. That makes me some kind of mysterian, someone who believes that there are some mysteries we will never get to the bottom of. I'm a "turtles all the way down" type.

A lot of really smart people hold the opposite viewpoint, though. I could be wrong.

Reply to fishfry
I think that the mind and consiousness is probably more complex than many believe. I do think it is mysterious but I haven't given up and continue to explore many various perspectives, including phenomenology and nondualistic ways of seeing life. In another thread, I have been looking at Plato's cave. On one hand, it is a useful metaphor for thinking about seeing reality beyond us. However, in some ways it can be a restrictive metaphor because it can be about seeing reality as out there as an external reality, missing the basis in subjectivity. I think that the interface between the subjective and objective is an important point of focus in thinking about consciousness.

Quoting Jack Cummins

I think that the interface between the subjective and objective is an important point of focus in thinking about consciousness.

I do too.

As has been noted, there are various ways of opening the doors of perception that, once experienced, render philosophy inconsequential. My initial exposure occurred nearly a half century ago, and my first thought was Now I understand the ancient origins of religion. Experience triumphs over reason.

Reply to Jack Cummins

. A little enlightened zen story to meditate upon ...

. God sent for the sun and questioned him: "Why do you erase darkness? What has she done?"

. "Darkness?" asked the sun. "Who is darkness? I have never met her. Where does she live? I have never set eyes on her, so how can I harass her? At least I should be acquainted with my foe. Please call her so that I may beg her forgiveness and clear the misunderstanding."

. God could not persuade darkness to come before the sun. This happened billions of years ago, they say. The problem remains still unsolved, for darkness is not the opposite of light but it's absence.

. Understand well the difference between "opposite" and "absence". If darkness is the opposite of light, we could though a handful on a lamp and the light would go out. We cannot do that for the simple reason that, darkness is the absence ... the nonpresence ... the nonbeing of light. It has no existance of its own. Light has its own existence ... because ... Light is existencial. When Light is not, what remains is darkness. Darkness cannot be removed. It cannot be dealt with, directly. If you want to bring in darkness, you will have to do something to light.

. In the exact same manner ... friend ... all that is considered evil in Life I look upon as darkness, be it greed, sex, anger. All that is bad in Life if full of darkness. Generally, we look upon one who fights this darkness as an ascetic, a man of temperance. I do not call him so. I consider the methods of such people as devices for insanity and hypocrisy; and neither a hypocrite nor a lunatic is in a desirable state of being.

. Darkness is not to be fought with. How can you fight something wich is not? ... You shall just deal with that which is ... right ? A lamp has to be lighted. In the presence of light, there is no darkness. Whatever is excellent in Life, that alone is Truth. Its absence is neither the opposite nor the inverse of its presence. Its absence is its pure nonpresence alone. Therefore a man of violence can cultivate nonviolence, but the violence remains within. A man may cultivate celibacy, but sex will rage just as much within. Such self-control is deception and I am against it. I am in favor of that self-control in which we do not subdue the evil, but awaken the good whithin. We do not remove darkness, but kindle a light whithin.

. Such awakening truth transforms the man and takes him to the temple of truth. He who is awaken to the truth, reaches this temple ... The temple of God ... and this temple ... is not controlled by time ... it is timeless ... Ad infinitum ...

Reply to jgill :smirk:

Reply to Anand-Haqq
You write well, and add interesting little pieces of inspiration to many threads. Thanks for your contribution.

Reply to jgill
Yes, I do think that psychedelic experiences open up interesting perspectives of perception. I experimented briefly with a few substances. One of the best was a packet of morning glory seeds. The reason why I thought it was about the best was because I was able to function to the point where I was able to sketch the images I was seeing on the door. I could be tempted to try them again, but I got stomach ache for the night after taking them because they are coated in poison to deter people using them. I think that our culture has forced the tradition of vision questing underground, while this was probably revered in some other cultures.