Saussure's 'Thought-Sound'
First, here's a link to a great pdf summary of Saussure's thought: Culler Source.
I'll also provide some key quotes from Quotable Source.
I don't think these quotes by themselves are enough for those entirely new to Saussure. I chose them to inspire interest and further reading and indicate some of themes I'm interested in.
I'd like to add the perhaps already implicit notion of the equivalence class to Saussure's thinking. Here's a concrete example. There are trillions (an infinity?) of ways to pronounce the word "bumblebee." First we can consider the billions of different human voices on this planet, and second we can consider all the different ways that each individual could pronounce the word. I think it's absurd to say that there's a right or ideal way to pronounce the word. All that matters is that each sounding of the word is recognized as equivalent to the others. So pronunciations of 'bumblebee' form an equivalence class without a privileged representative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_class
This is why So-sure insisted that the sound image (the signifier) is ideal rather than material. It's not any particular pronunciation but (something like) the class of all of them. Essential to any pronunciation of a word is that it's not confused with other words. Pronunciation can drift but what's constant is a sufficient distance or difference from other (classes of) (also drifting) pronunciations of other words.
*What does 'ideal' mean? As we see later, it gets its meaning from all of the other, different signs. Holism. The whole system hovers, interdependent.
I'll also provide some key quotes from Quotable Source.
Saussure argued that signs only make sense as part of a formal, generalized and abstract system. His conception of meaning was purely structural and relational rather than referential: primacy is given to relationships rather than to things (the meaning of signs was seen as lying in their systematic relation to each other rather than deriving from any inherent features of signifiers or any reference to material things). Saussure did not define signs in terms of some 'essential' or intrinsic nature. For Saussure, signs refer primarily to each other. Within the language system, 'everything depends on relations' (Saussure 1983, 121; Saussure 1974, 122). No sign makes sense on its own but only in relation to other signs. Both signifier and signified are purely relational entities (Saussure 1983, 118; Saussure 1974, 120).
....
Nowadays, whilst the basic 'Saussurean' model is commonly adopted, it tends to be a more materialistic model than that of Saussure himself. The signifier is now commonly interpreted as the material (or physical) form of the sign - it is something which can be seen, heard, touched, smelt or tasted. For Saussure, both the signifier and the signified were purely 'psychological' (Saussure 1983, 12, 14-15, 66; Saussure 1974, 12, 15, 65-66). Both were form rather than substance:
A linguistic sign is not a link between a thing and a name, but between a concept and a sound pattern. The sound pattern is not actually a sound; for a sound is something physical. A sound pattern is the hearer's psychological impression of a sound, as given to him by the evidence of his senses. This sound pattern may be called a 'material' element only in that it is the representation of our sensory impressions. The sound pattern may thus be distinguished from the other element associated with it in a linguistic sign. This other element is generally of a more abstract kind: the concept.
....
Thus, for Saussure the linguistic sign is wholly immaterial - although he disliked referring to it as 'abstract' (Saussure 1983, 15; Saussure 1974, 15). The immateriality of the Saussurean sign is a feature which tends to be neglected in many popular commentaries.
I don't think these quotes by themselves are enough for those entirely new to Saussure. I chose them to inspire interest and further reading and indicate some of themes I'm interested in.
I'd like to add the perhaps already implicit notion of the equivalence class to Saussure's thinking. Here's a concrete example. There are trillions (an infinity?) of ways to pronounce the word "bumblebee." First we can consider the billions of different human voices on this planet, and second we can consider all the different ways that each individual could pronounce the word. I think it's absurd to say that there's a right or ideal way to pronounce the word. All that matters is that each sounding of the word is recognized as equivalent to the others. So pronunciations of 'bumblebee' form an equivalence class without a privileged representative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_class
This is why So-sure insisted that the sound image (the signifier) is ideal rather than material. It's not any particular pronunciation but (something like) the class of all of them. Essential to any pronunciation of a word is that it's not confused with other words. Pronunciation can drift but what's constant is a sufficient distance or difference from other (classes of) (also drifting) pronunciations of other words.
*What does 'ideal' mean? As we see later, it gets its meaning from all of the other, different signs. Holism. The whole system hovers, interdependent.
Comments (11)
I think of something like an implicit metaphysics in every natural-historical language that chops up a (postulated) continuous reality in different ways. Even this 'processing' in terms of signifieds is arbitrary in the sense of contingent.
Some issues come to mind: if words like 'God' or 'reason' have no positive content but rather play their role in terms of their distance and difference from other terms, this suggests a limit on the kind of clarity we can hope to achieve. One traditional idea is that we know exactly what we are talking about, that we have 'direct access' to exact meaning and that it's only language-as-medium that introduces ambiguity. IMV, we think in signs, allowing for certain unimportant-here exceptions perhaps.
Here's a quote from the lecture notes (Saussure never wrote a book on his 'ontology' of language, but his Course (thru these notes) was influential.)
http://faculty.smu.edu/dfoster/cf3324/saussure.htm
https://durkheim.uchicago.edu/Summaries/rules.html
This sounds similar to what Lisa Feldman Barrett referred to as Darwin’s idea of population thinking, which she applies to a constructed theory of emotion:
I’m intrigued by this thread, but I’ll admit that I’m unfamiliar with Saussure (except a vague recollection of referencing him as an undergraduate many years ago), so I will read the links and return...
Bingo!
If you are interested in Saussure, then Culler's book has a great chapter that sums it up in 20 or 30 pages (pdf link in first post.) Glad you dropped in & hope to talk more.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/fr/derrida.htm
By air or ink, the 'same' language, despite entirely different mediums, one for the ear and one for the eye.
A little more on the equivalence classes or (ideal) sound images:
The ideality or structure in the sound image refers to the classification implicit in the 'hearing thru' the particular pronunciation (otherwise a mess of sound, a yawp) to the pronounced word. This is the recognition of the 'same' cultural object in an 'actually' unique vibration of the air. I say 'unique' because I doubt we ever pronounce the same word the same way twice (exactly the same way.) The chaos of sound is as if immediately broken into repeatable 'cultural objects.'
The temptation might be to leap to talk of the 'ego' or 'soul' or 'consciousness,' but these signs are endangered by Saussure's systematic thought. Do we know what we are talking about? What is ideality? IMV, Saussure is one of those thinkers who makes us aware of an inescapable ambiguity in our speaking...but compared to what unclear fantasy of clarity? Math? Chess? Dead formalism apart from our use of it? Our taking it up in our lifeworld, our passions?
http://faculty.smu.edu/dfoster/cf3324/saussure.htm
Constituted by differences. A sign is (only) what it is not. Somewhat analogously, money is not 'really' paper or numbers on a computer but what you can do with it, its role in society.
Compare this with:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/structuralism-mathematics/
Roughly, the part is constituted by the whole and not the other way around, and the whole is a system of relationships between the parts. The parts are not fixed in their 'materiality.' Some kind of 'medium' is necessary but the details are contingent. They only have significance through relationship which requires a recognizable difference from one another.
Here are some passages that are almost metaphysical. I wrote about the 'saxofoam' (my term) of 'thought-sound' (So-sure's) in the Blue Book thread before deciding to start this thread.
http://faculty.smu.edu/dfoster/cf3324/saussure.htm
http://classics.mit.edu/Plotinus/enneads.6.sixth.html
I think the 'form' is a social fact, a living convention. To say it's ideal is not IMV to add someother realm or substance (tho realm is a tempting metaphor here.) It's better perhaps to think of thoughtsound as an original unity that's only 'falsely' analyzed into 'impossibly' separate aspects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(semiotics)
I think what tempts us to think of language is a nomenclature is that a simply noun like 'cat', understood as a free-floating noun, conjures the image of a cat. It's easy to ignore that this is an atypical rather than prototypical situation. For instance, what images came to mind for those reading the last sentence? How did the 'meaning' flow through that experience of reading?
softwhere