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Ethics explained to smooth out all wrinkles in current debates -- Neo-Darwinist approach

god must be atheist April 22, 2021 at 12:21 8500 views 35 comments
I am unable to get this paper published. Therefore I'll put it up here. Too many publishers and editors have seen this already, I don't want it to go to waste.

Ethics: Fundamental Error in the Thinking of Past Philosophers and a Suggested Error Correction

Written and submitted by God Must Be Atheist on 2021 03 02

Abstract:

The author will demonstrate why ethics has been an elusive philosophical concept. The great ethicists, from classical Greek to seventeenth- and nineteenth century European thinkers, to present day philosophers, talk about morality and ethics as if it were a probably very clear and well-defined concept. They talk about it as if it were a given that everyone understands what it is. The author will shine light on why this assumption is false and wrong. Then the author will attempt to show how ethics can be easily defined and understood to be what it is by introducing an evolutionary concept of ethics, which distinguishes between autonomous ethics and socially learned ethics.

3079 words

I'll prove the impossibility of finding an all-encompassing rule for ethical behavior; and I shall prove it by illustrating that morality is not a singular system, but in fact two distinct and separate systems that have many commonalities and many differences as well.

The criterion or criteria for morality has not been found yet. Not to misconstrue that morality does not exist; but we can't actually safely and without any doubt in our minds decide what feature in an act makes it moral, immoral or amoral. We rely on our sentiments to decide that; and sentiments can't be used as benchmarks or measuring tools, even for quality of property, never mind quantitative properties.

I will present a few selected ideas of actions what people think moral actions are, and show you immediately on the spot that they are indistinguishable from selected other acts. With this I aim to show that whatever we choose as a feature of an action to be the action's moral ingredient, the same feature is not moral in other actions, so these features of supposed morality are useless in establishing purely using them whether an act is moral, amoral or immoral.

A moral action supposedly is...

-- one that makes the actor feel good and truly happy. Indistinguishable from eating an ice cream cone (makes us feel good) indistinguishable from achieving a goal we had set out and had had doubts whether we could attain it or not. This makes us feel good and happy. Other things that make us feel good and happy are childbirths, weddings, falling in love. Is falling in love a moral act, in and by itself? It's not even in your power when you do it, or when you happen upon it.
-- one that which most people approve of. Most people approve of holding the fork and knife properly, of driving on the proper side of the road, of not kicking dogs. Is not kicking dogs actually a moral act, in and by itself? Is not raping children a moral act? No, raping children is immoral by consensus and by intuition, but not raping them is not moral per se.
-- a heroic act: sacrificing one's own health, wealth, family, even life, for the good of the community or for loved ones. Is working overtime to make a boss's or capitalist inventors' life better, at the cost of destroying your own health, a moral act? No, it is not, yet your action is indistinguishable from the parameters set out: self-sacrifice to help someone else.
-- a type of act that make most or all people feel better, or their lives better, easier, happier. This is indistinguishable from being good or doing good things.
-- when a decision has to be involved; a moral decision. This is tricky, because we can’t rightfully establish the morality in an action, before we find out what exactly it is that makes an action moral. We can’t call a decision a moral decision before we get to establish the true qualifier of what makes an act moral. So this strips the task to just a decision being involved, not a moral decision. We may decide in a set of circumstances to trade fairly. This is indistinguishable from being persuaded to act in a seemingly innocent way. We decide to take advice, and if the advice is by a serpent to eat the fruit of the tree of wisdom, then it is an immoral act; yet the common element in both was that we made a decision. The act of decision making alone does not make a moral choice.
-- serving god. In the Judeo-Christian-Muslim sense. Well, the general consensus among Bible-believers is that humans have a free will, and the ethical purpose of it is to use the free will to avoid temptation and to serve god. Your service to your god may include crossing the street at a perpendicular to the line of the curb. Is it immoral to cross otherwise? All authority derives from god, and you are promised to burn in hell if you do cross god, (no pun intended) but crossing the street at an angle is not immoral.
-- when you feel you've done what you ought to have done. This feeling is your inner moral guide, and mostly it is planted in you by your educators or else it is innately your own genetically programmed feeling. "You must say your evening prayer every evening." You know you ought to do this, because others tell you, so you internalize the lesson. If you miss your evening prayer, you feel guilty. Yet they also tell you that people are generally greedy, and you ought to be careful around them with money. Yet you don't feel particularly elated at all when you act carefully with your money around other people.

I hope to have illustrated to you, dear audience, that there is no hard-and-fast resolution among people what precisely is the active ingredient in a moral act. We agree on most acts as to their moral nature. But this is an intuitive process; any one ingredient of value or of psychological effect that points at a moral act can point at a different act that satisfies the required particular parameters just as well, and the particular different act is not what any normal human would call moral. Which leaves us bereft of counsel: what is it that makes an act moral? We have this feeling built into our psyche that helps us tell what act is a moral act and what is not; yet we can't put our fingers on the very essence that our decision hinges on.

This is one of the two horns of the dilemma that has created havoc among ethicists.

The other horn is the paradox of what seems to be moral behavior, yet the behavior does not satisfy any of the parameters set out as requirements for acting morally.

You see your child drowning in deep water. You don't think, you don't philosophize, you don't debate what it is you ought to do in this particular instance. You don't act to be fair, you don't obey god, you don't care how you feel, good or bad, or how it affects mankind. Instead, you jump in to swim to your child and rescue her. Failing to do so would make you feel guilty ceaselessly for the rest of your life. Not failing, that is, if you successfully save her life, you will feel solemn, serene, and ecstatically rapturous. If the situation presented itself over again, you'd always perform the same action. And so would every other human who were in the same relative situation as that.

This is an act that no human would say "it is amoral, it is immoral". To all this is a truly moral act.

What can we say about this act that separates it from other acts? The most obvious observation is that it contains none of those features which we normally try to hang on moral acts: consideration, decision, god's will, fairness. This is a moral act that is bereft of moral considerations.

We can say also that is a hugely peculiar trait of this act: acting in this situation, you feel extreme elation when you accomplish the task; or alternatively unending debilitating guilt if you don't attempt to accomplish your task and you incur the loss of your child's life because of it.

This reward-punishment reaction system is the hallmark of the moral act. Depending on your action, you are punished cruelly and mercilessly by your conscience or else you are richly rewarded by an overwhelming feeling of happiness and accomplishment. The feature of this system that one must pay absolutely close attention is that both the punishment and the reward are internally produced; no agent outside your identity or self needs to interfere to ensure that you get your just rewards.

Not one of the components are learned, inasmuch as the reaction to immediately risk the self in a rescue mission is not learned but automatic, and the elation-guilt reward-punishment system is not learned and furthermore can't be circumvented or avoided by the individual. I consider beyond this that all humans alive share this reaction system, and thus I am forced to believe that this reaction system is part of unchangeable human nature, an act that has been genetically preprogrammed in every human (and in every individual of other warm-blooded animal species as well, incidentally). The act has enormous survival value for the propagation of the individual’s bloodline, or DNA, or genetic code, because the person acting it out ensures the survival of the person's offspring.

I call the above system autonomous moral behavior. It is autonomous, because it operates independently of the individual's will, of the individual's decision; it is a compelling course of action; and its subsequent ensuing associated feelings are unavoidable; yet all these are internally produced within the person's own emotional and biological boundary, while the person also is incapable of influencing its operation; the system is autonomous.

There are a few other examples of autonomous moral behavior.

One is the moral obligation to kill your rival if you find him or her in an intimate act with your spouse. This helps ensure that the children you raise are your own offspring. Even the laws in some countries recognize this as an involuntary act, and have slighter punishment for it than for murder or for manslaughter.

There is a moral obligation to kill those who have done you awful wrong... tortured you over an extensive period of time, or killed your loved ones, or illegally left you bereft of all your possessions. This type of revenge is illegal in Western societies, but it is condoned by moral standards throughout the world.

There is a moral obligation to sustain life not just in your offspring, but in others' children as well. It is considered hugely immoral to kill innocent, defenseless children.

This reward-punishment system is not learned. It is innate, and it can't be changed in a human.

Yet though it is innate, interestingly the system is not restricted to the autonomous moral system. It is a mechanism that has the capacity to be copied over to other areas of a person's life.

Other areas are those, which we, humans, also call moral acts, yet they are not compelling acts, they can be trespassed.

Let me explain. The parents tell the child "you must say your prayers and brush your teeth at night." Do they teach a moral code? You bet they do. The tooth brushing may be not moral, as the child can be explained in simple, totally reasonable and understood terms, why he or she needs to brush three times a day. But the prayer thing is a bit trickier. There is no tangible evidence to satisfy reason. Yet, for whatever reason the parents feel important, they impel in the child a moral lesson: missing your evening prayer is an immoral act. It is actually a sinful act in religious terms. But in extension, all sinful acts are immoral; a truly religious person will feel guilty (morally guilty) at every sinful act he or she commits in life.

So the child will experience guilt if she or he does not say the evening prayer, yet he or she will also feel slight satisfaction if she or he does say the prayer, as it is the same mechanism as the one inherited from the autonomous moral system: an internally produced punishment at failure of doing an "ought", and a rapturous or even just slightly pleasant feeling of satisfaction of a job well done, so to speak, when the person does do the "ought."

You, gentle audience, at this point may state: "yes, I see how it works; but not every culture tries to internalize the necessity of the morals of the evening prayer in their children; and even in those cultures, in which it is a well-accepted practice, there are renegades. These renegades fail at the tasks, yet don’t feel guilt, or accomplish the task and feel no elation. How come?"
Excellent question, my dear audience. My theory answers this by saying that the morals that are not innate, are also not absolute. They can be changed; they can be rejected; they are different from culture to culture. Autonomous moral behavior is biological. Evolutionary changes made it so. Non-autonomous morals are always social or societal. Biological evolution made it possible in humans to have the moral effect programmed by societal pressure. Educators in societies shape behavior, or at least attempt to, to make people act according to the rules of their host society. This helps social coexistence and cooperation, which in turn increases the survival chances of society, and in it, of each individual.

The reward-punishment systems in the two: in autonomous morality and in social morality forced on the individual are not identical. Differences exist in intensity and duration. If you contravene an autonomous moral code, you feel guilt-ridden for the rest of your life, you wear the yoke of pain by losing your self-respect, losing your inner self. If you contravene an assumed (that is, acquired and internalized) code of ethics, your guilt will not last forever or as long as you live, whichever comes first.

In their application the reward-punishment systems are also different, without abandoning their original roles in the operation. The autonomous moral code is compelling. The acquired is not compelling, you can trespass its internalized codes. The autonomous is not chosen to internalize; the acquired is for the individual's choosing whether to acquire it or not. The autonomous code can't be abandoned; the social code can. Examples of contravening social moral code may be thieving, cheating on exams, doing unfair trade, trading in slaves. Not everyone can do them, but there are some who are not stopped by their own acquired moral code from doing these things, because they have chosen not to accept them and not to obey them.

Note also please: not every culture has the same set of acquired moral codes. Cultures are different in their needed elements or processes to survive. This is an effect of the varying geophysical and geopolitical nature of survival tactics. Some cultures are abhorred by any one or more of the following things, and they teach morals against them: cannibalism, child- and wife abuse, murder, slavery, incest or inbreeding. Yet all of these features were integral, working, and in some cases, necessarily accepted features of to us known and well-operating cultures. The Roman empire existed on slave labour, and though nobody willingly went into slavery, and all were scared of needing to go, people did not feel guilt over having, operating and disciplining slaves. Cannibalism is still alive and well in areas of the world where animal protein can't be acquired. (I am told that that the practice has stopped when the mad cow disease was linked to species eating their own species' carcasses.) Inbreeding was the call of the day for ruling dynasties in different cultures across most of the entire history of humans: from Egyptian pharaohs, to medieval kings, to modern-day monarchs, panning thousands of years. Murder was a ritualistic necessity in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica. Woman- and child abuse was a practice only until very recently in human history. "Spare the rod and spoil the child."

What does this tell us? The obvious, I think, would be to say that morals and moral systems can be identified by the self-generated punishment and reward systems. Another obvious thing to say would be, I think, that there are two distinct sets of morals, and the only feature that is common to both, are the reward-punishment system. I assert that the reward-punishment moral system is innate only in the autonomous moral system, and it is transferable and is indeed transferred to the acquired moral system of the individual. If an individual existed outside of society, the individual would never develop, because there would be no need and no venue to develop, an acquired moral system. The unavoidable presence of the autonomous, and the possible presence of the acquired, systems of morals are both results of successful genetic mutations that created them, and since their presence is species-wide among humans, I assert it formed in pre-human android species, perhaps even in pre-warm blooded creature formation in the evolutionary past.

Other obvious differences are: species-wide rigidity in the autonomous system, and species-wide malleability or variety of codes in the acquired system. Another is the difference between actual acts that are considered moral or immoral by cultural norms. Still yet one more difference exists: the innate autonomous system can't be changed, yet elements, even the entire set of elements, of an otherwise well-accepted set of acquired moral codes can be rejected by an individual at his or her sole discretion.

There is one more similarity: both sets of moral codes increase the survival chances of the community and the survival chances of the morally acting individual's derivatives of his or her own DNA.

There are also far-reaching effects of the realization of this duality of moral systems, and knowing their nature. The far-reaching effect is our logical ability to reject the theories attempted to be built by all previous moral philosophers to date, up to, but not including, moral system theories by evolutionary theorists. This means, and I say it with both pride and with a feeling of bereavement, that we can now ignore and dispense with the moral teachings of Kant, Spinoza, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Socrates and Aristotle, to name just the most important ones that had tried to create, rather unsuccessfully, an all-encompassing moral map for humankind. Their efforts were fruitless, and were deemed and doomed to be so; they attempted the impossible to create an in and by itself complete and singular ethical system, because they had not realized the dual nature of morality, and more importantly, they were therefore blind to realize the different requirements for the two systems. Since the two systems are now viewed, as per my treatise here, as similar but with also some nonequivalent elements or features of operation, obviously and in a logical way, not one system of philosophy can be found that applies to both equally. Hence, moral questions will never be subjected to a single, all-encompassing evaluation (and repair) system, since the amorphous nature of the acquired moral codes and the rigid system of the autonomous moral codes make that wholly impossible.

Comments (35)

Book273 May 11, 2021 at 07:33 #534305
Quoting god must be atheist
autonomous moral codes


First problem: your autonomous moral code theory is still voluntary. Animals, including people, do not always save their young, neither do we necessarily feel any guilt over not saving them. So there is no actual autonomous moral code, although I can see why the idea has appeal. Without the concept of autonomous morality your premise is bankrupt.

Second problem: The previous ethicists' attempts to determine a moral pathway are generally universally applicable within the specific parameters of whatever culture someone is seeking ethical guidance in. Morality, as you pointed out (rather unclearly), is dependent on cultural perspective, therefore providing specific directions (only eat yellow beans) will not work, as cultures vary. However, providing general guidelines (always try for maximal Good) will be much more productive. The definition of Good may change in each culture, however, as each culture has a definition of Good, then seeking the maximal Good from each action will be recognized as the preferred moral option for each, and every, culture. Therefore seeking maximal Good is a basic and clear code for universal morality.

Third problem: Some of us feel no guilt. We approach life with eyes open and do, or do not, based on our own reasons and never look back again, except to learn from an outcome. Using guilt as an indicator of a poor moral decision excludes us guilt-free types.
god must be atheist May 31, 2021 at 06:16 #544700
Quoting Book273
First problem: your autonomous moral code theory is still voluntary. Animals, including people, do not always save their young, neither do we necessarily feel any guilt over not saving them. So there is no actual autonomous moral code, although I can see why the idea has appeal. Without the concept of autonomous morality your premise is bankrupt.


If the perceived risk is too high, then we do not save our young. Barring that, I can argue (without proof) that the lack of guilt or the lack of trying may be the response in individuals whose moral gene is either mutated or otherwise compromised. This is possible, and probable.

Quoting Book273
However, providing general guidelines (always try for maximal Good) will be much more productive.


Maximal Good is not morality; it is just doing good. This I covered in the preamble of the article.

The imperative "Try for Maximal Good" can be a moral imperative, if you instill it in people that they must feel guilty when they don' try for maximal good. However, "good" itself is undefinable; what's good for one person may be detrimental to another, and what's good for one person NOW may be detrimental to him in the future. Aside from that, "Maximal Good" can't be established unless first you decide what comprises good in a particular culture. This destroys the universality of "maximal good".

Quoting Book273
Third problem: Some of us feel no guilt.
according to my theory, the total lack of ability to feel guilty is a mutation.

-------------

I thank you for being the only person on the boards who took the time and trouble to express criticism on my paper. This I really appreciate, and our differences of opinion does not take away from my gratitude to take me seriously enough to respond meaningfully, and to chew through the entire paper in the first place. Thank you, I really appreciate both of your efforts.
Cheshire July 29, 2021 at 23:04 #573246
Quoting god must be atheist
Since the two systems are now viewed, as per my treatise here, as similar but with also some nonequivalent elements or features of operation, obviously and in a logical way, not one system of philosophy can be found that applies to both equally. Hence, moral questions will never be subjected to a single, all-encompassing evaluation (and repair) system, since the amorphous nature of the acquired moral codes and the rigid system of the autonomous moral codes make that wholly impossible.

We can and have made reasonable approximations. Being imperfect is not the same as without value.

Imagine if I told you that anything can be understood from my point of view. Would that be evidence that I was correct? No, just consistent. I don't think dispensing with several thousand years worth of inquiry is justified because we can sort moral issues into two categories. Besides, Kant already did by identifying the difference in nature versus civilized context for moral decisions and he was tossed a sunder in the conclusion. You by proxy threw out your own idea.
god must be atheist July 30, 2021 at 02:29 #573298
Quoting Cheshire
I don't think dispensing with several thousand years worth of inquiry is justified because we can sort moral issues into two categories.


I don't seek justification ... it's like justifying gravity or the speed of light. I only describe a system in a way that gives a wholly different way of classifying data of phenomena, and yields a much more accurate description. It actually throws out thousands of years of dilemmatic discourse... I don't see that as a sin, or a negative, or a mistake or a fault... in fact, I see it as the strength of my idea/ theory.

You may be nostalgic about Kant and others, and rightfully so... their theories have become in one fell swoop archaic, inaccurate, should I say useless. This is not something that needs to be justified, I don't think. It is something that changes an entire industry of thinking: thinking about morality.

I may have sounded haughty here, or overly confident. I do stand behind my words, and actually yes, I did notice and I think, like I said, that my theory dismisses a lot of others. This needs to be justified? Why? By whom? It's a category mistake to think so, I believe.

In fact, the entire theory I drew up in an effort to create a new framework in which a lot of old undecidable debates can be thrown asunder, as you said.

god must be atheist July 30, 2021 at 02:34 #573299
Quoting Cheshire
We can and have made reasonable approximations. Being imperfect is not the same as without value.


They say there is much to say for a system that is easy to comprehend but is only an approximation of the truth, but is useful as a model. It's better than a complex description of the precise truth, that is hard to implement.

Right. Being imperfect is not the same as being without value.

My system, however is not only a better description of the truth, but is also simpler and easier to implement, than the two-thousand-year-old system that has been debated in its nodal points in the precise same way for 2000 years. The conventional, old system has had systemic problems that can never be solved. It may have had some value, but it could be argued (and has been argued) what that value was.

No such thing in my system.
Cheshire July 30, 2021 at 03:00 #573308
Quoting god must be atheist
You may be nostalgic about Kant and others, and rightfully so... their theories have become in one fell swoop archaic, inaccurate, should I say useless. This is not something that needs to be justified, I don't think. It is something that changes an entire industry of thinking: thinking about morality.


Well, I've got a little philosophy cheat sheet. It says that if you think you've solved the entirety of a philosophical sub-category based on a single unrevised document then you are probably wrong. Ever heard of critical rationalism? It's designed to limit these types of 'misallocations' of perceived solvency.

You missed the information content of this statement.
Quoting Cheshire
Besides, Kant already did by identifying the difference in nature versus civilized context for moral decisions and he was tossed a sunder in the conclusion. You by proxy threw out your own idea.



unenlightened July 30, 2021 at 14:38 #573418
Quoting god must be atheist
I hope to have illustrated to you, dear audience, that there is no hard-and-fast resolution among people what precisely is the active ingredient in a moral act.


Some folks swear by a plumb-line, some by the way water finds its own level, and yet others by the illumination of coherent light produced by a lazar. Have I convinced anyone that there is no hard and fast resolution about what is the active ingredient in a straight line?
god must be atheist July 30, 2021 at 22:06 #573534
Quoting Cheshire
Besides, Kant already did by identifying the difference in nature versus civilized context for moral decisions and he was tossed a sunder in the conclusion. You by proxy threw out your own idea.


Yes, I missed the information content. Mea culpa. I did not understand the post, because... you're welcome to laugh at me, I never read Kant. I know about the categoricus imperativus, but that's all. And that theory is nice, cuddly, but useless... because most people know they could gain unfair advantage if they don't follow it, and some people actually make not following it into a habit.

So I don't bother much with Kant. He is overrated, because, basically, he was the first in a long time who gave morality a serious thought, and he himself knew he failed achieving his own goal with regard to moral theory.
god must be atheist July 30, 2021 at 22:17 #573544
Quoting Cheshire
Well, I've got a little philosophy cheat sheet. It says that if you think you've solved the entirety of a philosophical sub-category based on a single unrevised document then you are probably wrong


You covered yourself. "Probably" in front of "wrong". Either way, you may claim victory of predictive power. If my theory stands the test of peer review, or else if it does not.

There has been at least one other issue in philosophy that has been solved: Zeno's paradox of the hare and the turtle (the hare will never catch the turtle ... like heck it won't.)
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god must be atheist July 30, 2021 at 22:26 #573546
Quoting unenlightened
Some folks swear by a plumb-line, some by the way water finds its own level, and yet others by the illumination of coherent light produced by a lazar. Have I convinced anyone that there is no hard and fast resolution about what is the active ingredient in a straight line?


There is belief based on evidence, and there is proof based on evidence. I tried to say that I did not prove that there is no hard and fast resolution about what the active ingredient is in ethics; but I challenge you to tell me what that is. I can challenge anyone on the globe, and they can't prove by pointing at X and saying "this is the active ingredient in morality". Therefore it is safe to say that there has no active ingredient found yet, yet it allows for its existence. Your analogy I won't challenge, as you wrote it in mockery.

I say you wrote it in mockery because there is no active ingredient in what makes a triangle a triangle, and a straight line a straight line. Moral acts, on the other hand, are complex, manifold, and often self-contradictory (one will call it moral, the other, immoral). No normal person will call a triangle a non-triangle; and call a non-triangle a triangle. Whereas that is the case often with moral actions. There is a huge difference there, and your model in your example throws out this difference... hence your model does not apply.
Harry Hindu July 30, 2021 at 22:31 #573549
Quoting god must be atheist
There has been at least one other issue in philosophy that has been solved: Zeno's paradox of the hare and the turtle (the hare will never catch the turtle ... like heck it won't.)

Another that has been solved is which came first, the chicken or the egg? The egg - evolutionary speaking.

Quoting god must be atheist
but we can't actually safely and without any doubt in our minds decide what feature in an act makes it moral, immoral or amoral.

Sure we do. Goals is the feature. If you didn't have goals what would morality be? Those that help realize your goals are good, those that inhibit them are bad. We even label events not caused by any humans, that either inhibit or help achieve our goals as "good" or "bad" events. People or events that have no impact on your goals are not considered to fall into the territory of ethics.

Understanding that morality is subjective isn't that difficult. We all have our own goals. Some goals we share primarily because we are the same species, or members of the same culture, so it can appear as if there is an objective aspect to morality, until you meet a new civilization or person with different goals that include how to inhibit your goals.


god must be atheist July 30, 2021 at 22:35 #573552
Quoting Harry Hindu
but we can't actually safely and without any doubt in our minds decide what feature in an act makes it moral, immoral or amoral.
— god must be atheist
Sure we do. Goals is the feature. If you didn't have goals what would morality be? Those that help realize your goals are good, those that inhibit them are bad.


What if your goal is to enslave half of mankind, make their lives miserable, painful and their spirits broken, for the benefit of the other half of mankind?

Goals? This is a goal. To enslave half of mankind.

You have to qualify now what those goals should or must be. And ay, there is the rub. That is precisely what the debate has been for thousands of years, with no end in sight.
unenlightened July 31, 2021 at 06:27 #573643
Quoting god must be atheist
What if your goal is to enslave half of mankind, make their lives miserable, painful and their spirits broken, for the benefit of the other half of mankind?


That does not make sense as a goal. Indeed, even as you describe it, the actual goal is the benefit of half of mankind. A noble goal, pursued with vile tactics. Rather like "enhanced interrogation". If someone has the goal of actually making people suffer for no other reason than that it pleases them, neither we nor they would call it moral; rather it is evil or insane.

There is almost no disagreement about goals in the abstract, moral goals are for the benefit of people. All the disagreement is about means rather than ends, and about the details of cost-benefit analysis. Here there tends to be a lot of myopia, such that the costs and benefits to 'people like me' loom large in my calculations, and thus others see things differently. Enslaving the negro was presented as 'the white man's burden', the annihilation of the Jews as the solution of a problem of terrible injustice and criminality. Every horror is sold as a price worth paying (by someone else) for our benefit.

There is even a modern movement to grant certain ecosystems the status of persons in order to extend the moral protection we grant humans to the environment to some extent.

And of course we all understand and agree about these historical examples and from this distance there is no question about the rights and wrongs of them, which is why the seem to work as evidence of the arbitrary nature of morality. But from this distance, we do all agree!
Trey July 31, 2021 at 12:28 #573710
Y’all are struggling with complexity here!

GOOD: That which decreases pain and suffering (which we all inately recognize pain in others from instinct), both in magnitude and numbers (number of individuals).

EVIL: Vice versus.

Ex: Catholic no birth control policy - increases poverty (suffering) and decreases the value of each individual. EVIL

Now that wasn’t so hard was it?
Harry Hindu August 01, 2021 at 15:06 #574042
Quoting god must be atheist
Goals? This is a goal. To enslave half of mankind.

You have to qualify now what those goals should or must be. And ay, there is the rub. That is precisely what the debate has been for thousands of years, with no end in sight.

It's not qualifiying what the goals should be, but whether any goal has a moral property of good or bad (goals are more than just being good or bad) in some sense independent of the person, or group, with the goal in question. Enslaving mankind and freeing mankind are different goals. Whether they are good or bad is something different, and is seems to always depend on the person's, or group's, other goals.

god must be atheist November 04, 2021 at 01:31 #616508
Quoting Harry Hindu
You have to qualify now what those goals should or must be. And ay, there is the rub. That is precisely what the debate has been for thousands of years, with no end in sight.
— god must be atheist
It's not qualifiying what the goals should be, but whether any goal has a moral property of good or bad (goals are more than just being good or bad) in some sense independent of the person, or group, with the goal in question. Enslaving mankind and freeing mankind are different goals. Whether they are good or bad is something different, and is seems to always depend on the person's, or group's, other goals.


What you said is the same as what you have quoted from me. And that is precisely what my theory claissifies so, that it ("it" being the vexing contradictory evaluation of the same act) can be made compatible with a moral theory.
god must be atheist November 04, 2021 at 01:33 #616510
What you, as the readers, I ask to realize, is that my theory is not a guidance or a fail-proof prescription of behaviour; it is instead a failproof prescription how to evaluate moral behaviour. I am not telling people what is moral and how they should behave; I am telling people how morality can be assigned, why, and how that is possible.
god must be atheist November 04, 2021 at 01:43 #616514
Quoting Trey
Y’all are struggling with complexity here!

GOOD: That which decreases pain and suffering (which we all inately recognize pain in others from instinct), both in magnitude and numbers (number of individuals).

EVIL: Vice versus.

Ex: Catholic no birth control policy - increases poverty (suffering) and decreases the value of each individual. EVIL

Now that wasn’t so hard was it?


So good is moral? I contest that, with the argument that 1. if they were equivalent, (and you use straight equivalency to explain the other with substituting the first into its place) there would be no two words for them; and 2. if all good is moral, and all bad is evil or immoral, then ambivalences can't be called moral or immoral, while our innate recognition of the act for us as being moral or the opposite is immediately obvious. Example: Antisemitism by Naziism. Nazis believed that the evil in the world stemmed from the Jewish ambition of world hegemony, and that Jews were innately evil people. This was obvious and innately accepted by them. On the other hand, the rest of the world thought the German Nazis to be innately evil for adopting this and making it policy to exterminate all Jews to make this a better world.

Obviously to a Nazi, killing Jews was innately moral. To a non-Nazi, killing Jews for this belief is innately immoral. The same act. Good and Bad. Moral and Evil. This is the "aye, there is the rub" I referred to, and your simplification of the problem, Trey, does not solve the problem at all.

Whereas my showing a perspective how to view the problem does make the apparent self-contradiction go away.
Tom Storm November 04, 2021 at 02:05 #616523
Quoting god must be atheist
Obviously to a Nazi, killing Jews was innately moral. To a non-Nazi, killing Jews for this belief is innately immoral. The same act. Good and Bad.


Just taking this at random demonstrates to me the innate difficulty of actually making these sorts of statements coherent.

It wasn't just Nazi's who celebrated the Final Solution, it was anti-Semites. Some were not Nazi's.

The Nazi's were not propelled into the Final Solution by notions of Jewish world hegemony. Hitler partly inherited the Christian hatred of Jews as Christ killers. Martin Luther used to preach about burning them all. As a eugenicist, Hitler also held to a racial purity crusade and Jews to him were vermin to be exterminated from the human gene pool. Hence the use of the same gas (Zyklon B) that was a pesticide to fumigate factories and ships against lice and cockroaches.

Now here's the thing. Why get into this messy material as an example for your rather uncomplicated idea?

Why not just go with something less frequently shoehorned like - The World Trade Centre airplane hijackers? Heroes to Wahhabi Islamisists, villains to most people in the West. How does the cliché go - one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter?

god must be atheist November 04, 2021 at 03:52 #616558
Quoting Tom Storm
Why get into this messy material as an example for your rather uncomplicated idea?


Islamist terrorists are another good idea. American aggression abroad is another. Ideas abound. Why pick on the one I picked and blame me for picking it? Is it a worse scenario to explain my point than the Wahhabi Islamisists? Why actually do you do this?

What you are doing is not arguing on a philosophical level. "Do this, don't do that", is what you are saying, while "that" and "this" are equivalent in educational value. So do you have a personal exception against the moral dilemma the Nazi values represent? Why? It is not philosophy you talk.

I have a strong feeling that it is a personal agenda you are speaking from. I mean, I can' t be sure, but why else would you be bugging me to change the example?
god must be atheist November 04, 2021 at 04:00 #616560
Tom, I am not going to rewrite the page because you object to the example. The example is clear and to the point.

If you have an obvious or not-so obvious but still relevant criticism on my paper, I would like to hear about that. But I am not going to be let myself be bugged down on immaterial details on people objecting to the specific examples I use. It is the mechanics of Good and Bad that I wanted to illuminate, and the example served that. It was not messy for the purpose. You called it messy, but it is not.

So please comment on the ideas I have in my paper, not on immaterial peripheral trivia that has no bearing on my argument there.
Tom Storm November 04, 2021 at 06:06 #616601
Reply to god must be atheist You seem unduly sensitive to this. Try not to be defensive and aggressive in return. No need to re-write anything: this is a forum. You made a point, I made a comment. As I wrote, I was taking this at random. It's just that using Nazi's as an example seems lazy and is such a ubiquitous rhetorical device. And you were so emphatic about it too that it seemed opportune to provide feedback. Feel free to ignore it GMBA and carry on.
god must be atheist November 04, 2021 at 06:08 #616602
I like sushi November 04, 2021 at 06:46 #616610
Quoting god must be atheist
The author will demonstrate why ethics has been an elusive philosophical concept. The great ethicists, from classical Greek to seventeenth- and nineteenth century European thinkers, to present day philosophers, talk about morality and ethics as if it were a probably very clear and well-defined concept. They talk about it as if it were a given that everyone understands what it is. The author will shine light on why this assumption is false and wrong. Then the author will attempt to show how ethics can be easily defined and understood to be what it is by introducing an evolutionary concept of ethics, which distinguishes between autonomous ethics and socially learned ethics.


I can see why they didn’t bother to publish it ^^

This is poorly written and one sentence doesn’t even make sense (italics). You should probably get people to proof read before attempting to get something published.
god must be atheist November 04, 2021 at 22:54 #616863
Quoting I like sushi
This is poorly written and one sentence doesn’t even make sense (italics).


You probably object to my having "morality and ethics" as the subject of the clause, while then later I refer to them as "it".

There is a reason for it. In some schools of philosophy, morality and ethics are equivalent to each other. I accept that view. Unless a writer differentiates what meaning he attaches to morality that is different from the meaning he attaches to ethics, the two words are synonyms. Therefore there is a singular idea, paraphrased as "morality" and as "ethics", but it is one and the same thing.

I appreciate that it does hurt the eye to read two words of which one is in plural, to be referred to as a singular subject, but I needed to sacrifice either the concept, or else proper English syntax. You're right, the sentence needs to be re-written.

I noticed how your criticism restricted itself to my writing style and did not expand to criticize the content.
Philosophim November 11, 2021 at 00:56 #619154
I think the biggest issue with this is you need to condense and clarify your points. When you define something such as autonomous morality, you should clearly define it, then use examples to demonstrate that definition.

Quoting god must be atheist
This is an act that no human would say "it is amoral, it is immoral". To all this is a truly moral act.


Quoting god must be atheist
Not one of the components are learned, inasmuch as the reaction to immediately risk the self in a rescue mission is not learned but automatic, and the elation-guilt reward-punishment system is not learned and furthermore can't be circumvented or avoided by the individual.


But then you later say,

Quoting god must be atheist
There are a few other examples of autonomous moral behavior.

One is the moral obligation to kill your rival if you find him or her in an intimate act with your spouse.


But not everyone would react this way. Some would kill their partner. Some might find it arousing. I think you were trying to imply that that autonomous morality was the emotions within the individual that compel you to do actions of a social nature? And these emotions would be innate, not learned from society correct? Every example you give should reinforce your clear definition, and leave room for doubt or error. We all struggle with this, its not just you. But I believe you start taking societal moral norms and applying them to autonomous morality, and it makes it confusing.

Quoting god must be atheist
Non-autonomous morals are always social or societal. Biological evolution made it possible in humans to have the moral effect programmed by societal pressure. Educators in societies shape behavior, or at least attempt to, to make people act according to the rules of their host society.


Here I think you do better. Non-autonomous morals are those placed by 1 or more people on others. This might coincide with one's autonomous morals, but it also may not. A society generally enforces it ethical model on people, and those who have an autonomous mismatch of a certain threshold are punished by society.

Quoting god must be atheist
The far-reaching effect is our logical ability to reject the theories attempted to be built by all previous moral philosophers to date, up to, but not including, moral system theories by evolutionary theorists.


That's a neat claim, but why? I didn't really get that from your paper.





Hello Human November 14, 2021 at 13:40 #620302
I don't know why but I haven't seen this paper seen until now somehow. The fact that we have some reward mechanism when we act morally implies that morality is a habit, formed over time thanks to feedback from that sense of fulfillment, which gives hope for the possibility of moral progress for the individual and society as a whole. Perhaps one day humanity will see a time where people stop wasting time on hating each other for petty reasons.

The problem now is in finding how to make people act morally. The approach of giving rewards to good action is not efficient in my opinion, because it externalizes that sense of fulfillment when we do something good and replaces it with mere pleasure, giving the false impression that good people have some significant amount of "success", which ends up discouraging people when they realize that being good does not necessarily imply success.
god must be atheist November 18, 2021 at 22:21 #621932
Reply to Philosophim

Dear Philosophim, thanks, thanks, thanks, for doing a more in-depth analysis of my paper.

I took note of your needing more rigid definitions for my newfound ideas, and more examples to support the definitions. thanks.

I also thank you for pointing out that marital fidelity does not always draw the same reaction.

Where I can play a safe defense of my treatise is on this of your points:

Quoting god must be atheist
The far-reaching effect is our logical ability to reject the theories attempted to be built by all previous moral philosophers to date, up to, but not including, moral system theories by evolutionary theorists.


Quoting Philosophim
That's a neat claim, but why? I didn't really get that from your paper.


A little farther reading into the paragraph from where you and I quoted would have satisfied your request, I believe. Please consider the following as to "why" on the neat claim.

Quoting god must be atheist
attempted the impossible to create an in and by itself complete and singular ethical system, because they had not realized the dual nature of morality, and more importantly, they were therefore blind to realize the different requirements for the two systems. Since the two systems are now viewed, as per my treatise here, as similar but with also some nonequivalent elements or features of operation, obviously and in a logical way, not one system of philosophy can be found that applies to both equally. Hence, moral questions will never be subjected to a single, all-encompassing evaluation (and repair) system, since the amorphous nature of the acquired moral codes and the rigid system of the autonomous moral codes make that wholly impossible.


Again, and I can't emphasize this strong enough, I am grateful for your meaningful and valuable contribution in criticizing my treatise. Thank you.


god must be atheist November 18, 2021 at 22:27 #621934
Quoting Hello Human
The approach of giving rewards to good action is not efficient in my opinion, because it externalizes that sense of fulfillment when we do something good and replaces it with mere pleasure, giving the false impression that good people have some significant amount of "success", which ends up discouraging people when they realize that being good does not necessarily imply success.


Totally agree. The moral conduct of a person is rewarded and punished from within the person's own self. If the reward or punishment comes from the outside, it is not a moral evaluation of the person's deed. It may be a reinforcing factor, and it may be even a building step of the person's morality, but the true reward and the true punishment of a moral (or immoral) act is given from the inside of the person.
gloaming November 19, 2021 at 21:07 #622197
Reply to god must be atheist

A moral action...

"..supposedly makes the actor feel good and happy."

Not necessarily, so I am unprepared to accept this initial premise. The trolley dilemma should make that clear.

"...one that most people approve of." Again, not demonstrably correct. They may claim to approve of an act when polled, but as we both know, what one says and what one does when nobody is looking isn't necessarily moral....or ethical.

"...is a heroic act." People are automatically heroes for acting within a defined set of moral principles? Then we're all heroes.

Generally, you appear to be stuck in the teleological paradigm where you adhere to the mostest, the happiest, and other 'est' endings with which we are so familiar.

I could go on, but I stopped reading. Maybe that's what happened with all those publishers.
god must be atheist November 20, 2021 at 01:28 #622253
Reply to gloaming Thank you for your in-depth criticism.

"..supposedly makes the actor feel good and happy.", "one that most people approve of", "is a heroic act" etc. etc. are all examples which later I, myself, debunked, much resembling your claims. I put to you that you missed the point of my paper because you did not finish following the logical buildup of the claim I made.

You rejected my thesis on examples that were mistaken by you as examples of my beliefs and supporting reasons for my later points, but in fact their support was merely that they were false and unsupportable claims of what makes an act moral.

Strangely and in a funny way, you agreed with me, inasmuch as the examples you rejected were rejected by me too. Your mistake was to not see that.

If you had only read and reflected on the paragraph that preceded the list you quoted from, the above would have been clear to you. Instead, I believe and it appears that you superficially neglected to do an in-depth reading, you skimmed my paper, skipped integrally important parts of it, important in the sense that they served to show a point, and then you made judgments on the merits of my paper based on completely irrelevant reasons.
Altered December 22, 2021 at 21:55 #634019
Quoting god must be atheist
This is an act that no human would say "it is amoral, it is immoral". To all this is a truly moral act.


If the action was done purely on instinct would it not be amoral? At least some conscious thought is required to make it a moral action. Although to others it may seem that the action of saving a child was heroic and was made based off that consideration. In reality it was amoral as it was done purely through instinct. However, if there was any conscious thought at all in the seconds that it took to save that child; then would it not fall in your first category as it was a decision affected by that person’s sense of morality? True the range of moral options are limited based on the persons biology. In this case not saving your own child is not an option, biological instinct will compel you. Instead the effort exerted or the method in doing so might be changed. Unfortunately this is the case for every action a human might take as they are limited by biology. These biological instincts can be over come and given time completely ignored, otherwise morality amongst humans would be universal:Quoting god must be atheist
Some cultures are abhorred by any one or more of the following things, and they teach morals against them: cannibalism, child- and wife abuse, murder, slavery, incest or inbreeding. Yet all of these features were integral, working, and in some cases, necessarily accepted features of to us known and well-operating cultures

Although this all takes place on a spectrum and is not: Quoting god must be atheist
two horns of the dilemma that has created havoc among ethicists.
Humans are limited by biology in the conscious and unconscious decisions or actions they can preform.
In summary actions made by a conscious individual may be assigned morality and actions made without conscious thought are amoral. Biology limits the scope of what humans define to be moral. Morality is sometimes mistakenly placed on amoral unconscious action because it is mistaken for a conscious action and this can be done even potentially by the individual in question due to faulty memory or other factors.

I apologize if I appear to be rambling I would be happy to clarify any misconceptions or answer any questions.

god must be atheist December 23, 2021 at 03:19 #634102
Reply to Altered
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Altered.

The difference in our opinion may stem from the difference in our approach to morality. You say morality is limited by biology; well, I don't know what it is that is not limited by the biology of a person. I mean, you'r right, but being limited by our own biology is not something that fosters further thought, since our entire biological existence is limited by biological constraints.

Quoting Altered
Although this all takes place on a spectrum and is not:
two horns of the dilemma that has created havoc among ethicists.
— god must be atheist


I would be curious to read more on this negation of my observation. Unfortunately after you say "this is not true" you don't offer any evidence to support your opinion; instead, you again go onto explaining how we are biologically limited. Well, then I don't understand why you said "and is not", if you are not willing to illuminate the truth in your proposition.

Notwithstanding the differences, I am glad you found my treatise worthy to respond to. Very few people give it the time of day.
Altered December 23, 2021 at 09:19 #634141

Reply to god must be atheist I am glad you enjoyed my response I felt this was the most interesting topic on this forum to which I could formulate a response, so I decided to post my take. I will attempt to clarify the position that your dilemma exists on a spectrum and is therefore not a mere dilemma. To do so I will continue to use the following example:

Quoting god must be atheist
You see your child drowning in deep water. You don't think, you don't philosophize, you don't debate what it is you ought to do in this particular instance. You don't act to be fair, you don't obey god, you don't care how you feel, good or bad, or how it affects mankind. Instead, you jump in to swim to your child and rescue her.


This case was used as an example of your autonomous moral system. In the most extreme case it would be you and your child alone. Here the only choice is to dive in a save her. However, if only a few variables are changed; for example if you had a friend who was a better swimmer than you, instead of diving in you might have them do it. In this case the acquired moral system will have an effect on the action taken. The degree of the effect will be changed by a variety of similar factors. In this sense your dilemma is not black and white there are many shades of grey. Therefore it exists on a spectrum where most moral decisions have aspects of both the individual acquired moral system and the autonomous moral system. This makes it much more complicated than a mere dilemma as each degree in which both systems have been combined must be taken into account.
To directly address:Quoting god must be atheist
the paradox of what seems to be moral behavior, yet the behavior does not satisfy any of the parameters set out as requirements for acting morally.

It must be noted that in these grey cases the qualifying word completely would be added so that it becomes: the behaviour does not completely satisfy any of the parameters set out as requirements for acting morally.

To overturn the philosophers who proposed an all-encompassing moral map for humanity you would have to demonstrate that a significant amount of actions were sufficiently tainted by the autonomous moral system.
god must be atheist December 23, 2021 at 10:00 #634153
Quoting Altered
the behaviour does not completely satisfy any of the parameters set out as requirements for acting morally.


Quoting god must be atheist
the paradox of what seems to be moral behavior, yet the behavior does not satisfy any of the parameters set out as requirements for acting morally.


Thank you for raising these points. I actually disagree, and I can explain why.

There are no parameters for specifically the acquired moral code but not for the autonomous one. In the second quote, taken from your text as suggestion, you mention an alleged existence of parameters set out as requirements for acting morally. Again, I am at a loss what you mean, but I'll try to cover it.

By parameters you may mean that the reward-punishment emotional reaction system coming from within the self is in action and working. This is the most important parameter or defining factor of a moral act according to my paper. Actually, it is the only one. How can an inner guilt feeling be not complete, or an inner happiness be not complete? It either satisfies the parameter, or it does not. You can't have 10% guilt; you can't have 40% elation.

By parameters you may mean the qualities in the list of moral behaviour, or rather, what we call moral behaviour which I povided. Many readers mistake that list as a declaration by me as "these are moral actions". My style could be improved on that. This is actually a list of what people consider moral, but they are not absolute in their moral value. In fact, they are independent of morality in and by themselves as actions. I alleged (and shown satisfactorily, but not conclusively) that these behaviours, though we call them moral, can each be satisfactorily and competely described with an attribute that is independent from moral. The attachment of "moral" to these behaviours is arbitrary, and that is proven by their non-pervasive nature. In fact, the opposite of the value of "approval for this behaviour" can be found in other cultures with their separate and to them equally valid set of acquired moral codes. They become moral only when the individual incorporates them in his values to generate inner punishment or reward according to how he or she satisfies the requirements of these behaviours.

I am still not sure if I addressed your concern satisfactorily. I find it a bit difficult seeing our points, as the connection between your claims and your explanation of claims are not very solid. Sorry, this is not a criticism of your thought, but rather a description of the logistics... you may be right, but your explanations are not only ambiguous, but rather lacking in solid reason. At least I don't see the reasoned connection. Whether that stems from my ineptitude of understanding you, or the other way around, is for the philosophers to decide.
-----------------

Regarding the spectrum: I also challenge your stance, that there is a spectrum of hybrid morality, where both innate, or autonomous, and acquired codes are in action at the same time and in the same respect.

You brought up the examples of a parent not saving the child from drowning because they can rely on a different method of saving the child which does not include the parent getting physically involved. I don't see how this can be mixture, albeit it is a variation of behaviour, on the parent's side. Or did you mean the person who is the good swimmer, and dependably can do a better job than the parent to save the child, has a moral dilemma which has components of both autonomous and acquired moral codes? You said that that there are instances of mixed codes at present, but I fail to see that. Please provide the examples, and please point at the mixture in action. The example you provided may be sufficient, but I don't see what you see in it, that is, a spectrum's presence, so please enlighten me. Please analyze for me the event and show which precisely in this scenario is a spectral moral action, a mix of both kinds. Thanks.


In further response to hybrid morality, which makes a spectrum: even if these instances exist, we can identify the two kinds of morality in the hybrid. It's like, allow me to present an anology: it's like a chemical compound, which has two components, which two components can be identified to be present even when they combine to form a unity.

----------------

I thank you again for your spirited and deeply meaningful criticism.