Anti-vaccination: Is it right?

Quoting Tzeentch

You won't find an expert that will tell you an unvaccinated person is more contagious than a vaccinated one, nor will you find one that tells you a vaccine is more effective than natural immunity.

Here, you stand corrected on both counts (30 seconds of google):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

But science is not the issue with me. For me it is political. You see, I embrace "guilt by association." I look around and see the people who agree with you, Tzeentch. I see white nationalists, racists, fascists, Republican, Q types and anti-intellectuals who undermine science. Now, granted, maybe Tzeentch is different. Maybe he really is a Doctor who knows something I don't know. But he fails to put any distance between himself and the fascists. He fails to disavow these people. So I make it political and toss him in with his comrades.

Am I painting with too broad a brush? Maybe, but I see you holding it, not me. So, when Michelle Obama says "When they go low, we go high" I disagree. When they go low, I go down there with them and give them a taste of their own medicine. They, like you, don't like that. :rofl: They don't like when science goes by the wayside and politics is the order of the day.

So some are not the independent, free thinkers, standing up to government authority. They are surrounded by, embraced by, and themselves embrace a large swath of people, outlined above. Loners they are not. They are summarized by the word "fascist." If they were to try and put some distance between themselves and those that agree with them, then I'd have to rethink. And individual members may say it is not their job to police their ranks. But you will be known by the company you keep, whether you like it or not. Science be damned, I'll stand with Dr. Fauci while you stand with Tucker Carlson.

So remember, when you try to refute the above trashing of your statement that I would never find a scientist blah blah blah, remember, it's not about the science. It's about cowardice. And you can see what I wrote about that, above.

Quoting James Riley

Here, you stand corrected on both counts (30 seconds of google):

Imagine thinking a Google search is going to produce unbiased results.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v1

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Here. Actual research papers, which you can interpret and glean conclusions from yourself. Will likely take you more than 30 seconds, though.

I could link a hundred more, but I am not interested in a science debate either.

Quoting James Riley

You see, I embrace "guilt by association."

Generalizations are by definition inaccurate, thus you're embracing ignorance.

But it's none of my business what your opinions of me are or who you associate me with. I'm interested in your ideas and argumentations only.

Quoting James Riley

When they go low, I go down there with them and give them a taste of their own medicine. They, like you, don't like that.

I am enjoying our conversation, heated as it may be. Why else would I be here still talking with you?

Quoting James Riley

So some are not the independent, free thinkers, standing up to government authority. They are surrounded by, embraced by, and themselves embrace a large swath of people, outlined above. Loners they are not. They are summarized by the word "fascist." If they were to try and put some distance between themselves and those that agree with them, then I'd have to rethink. And individual members may say it is not their job to police their ranks. But you will be known by the company you keep, whether you like it or not. Science be damned, I'll stand with Dr. Fauci while you stand with Tucker Carlson.

I'm not even going to defend myself against the intellectual concession of defeat that is calling someone else a fascist. Believe what you will about me, as I said, it's of no concern to me. Convincing you is of no concern to me. But if you're interested in fascism, you should know they love violence and authority, Travis.

Quoting Tzeentch

Imagine thinking a Google search is going to produce unbiased results.

Doesn't matter if they are biased or not. You said I couldn't and I did. You are are wrong and I am right. But did you admit that I did when you said I could not? No. You just pivot like a good little political tool.

You lost credibility a long time ago, but this is just another example of how wrong you are. So, lacking credibility, there is no need for me to follow up on your failures which could, and have been so easily proven wrong. Hell, Xtrix has already spanked you on the science, repeatedly. Your side is just biased. You aren't Doctor Tzeentch.

Quoting Tzeentch

I'm not even going to defend myself against the intellectual concession of defeat that is calling someone else a fascist.

It's not a concession of defeat if it is true.

Quoting James Riley

Doesn't matter if they are biased or not. You said I couldn't and I did.

If by expert you thought I meant "a random person in a news article", then.. Oh well. Link an actual scientific study if you want me to take it serious.

But go you.

Quoting James Riley

It's not a concession of defeat if it is true.

So it is a concession of defeat. But it's one that was in the making for a long time.

Quoting Tzeentch

If by expert you thought I meant "a random person in a news article", then.. Oh well. Link an actual scientific study if you want me to take you serious.

You lack the intellectual, analytic, and critical thinking skills to comprehend actual scientific studies. That is proven by the fact that you called those authors "random person" without even looking at who they are. Besides, like me, you aren't a doctor and even if I cited actual scientific studies, you would have done the same thing. You would have alleged bias and tried other futile pivots. (The truth is biased toward truth. DOH!) Just like those who supported big tobacco and big oil. As I said, others on this very thread have cited the actual scientific studies that take you over their collective knees and spank your bottom until it is an angry red.

Quoting Tzeentch

So it is a concession of defeat. But it's one that was in the making for a long time.

No, I'm correct: You will be judged by the company you keep. This was not long in making. You made it yourself when you aligned more solidly with your leaders than I do with the U.S., the CDC, the FDA, and the world experts.

Quoting James Riley

That is proven by the fact that you called those authors "random person" without even looking at who they are.

I did take a look at who they were, and the fact that there's "medical" in their job title does not make them an expert in whatever it is they're making claims about.

Quoting James Riley

Besides, like me, you aren't a doctor and even if I cited actual scientific studies, you would have done the same thing.

Likely I would've had to point out that whatever you believe that hypothetical study proves, does not correspond to the actual conclusion of the study. Which is what I would've had to do if you referred to the studies your articles referred to, which I did take a look at.

Quoting James Riley

... others on this very thread have cited the actual scientific studies, ...

So have I.

Quoting James Riley

You made it yourself when you aligned more solidly with your leaders

Now it gets interesting.

My leaders? And who might those be?

Quoting Tzeentch

I did take a look at who they were, and the fact that there's "medical" in their job title does not make them in expert in whatever it is they're making claims about.

Pivot. Pivot. Pivot. :rofl: That "medical" in their job title is something you don't have and are not smart enough to have. Compared to you, they are experts. Besides, here you are pivoting when you already stipulated that science was not the issue for you either. So, you are just running from the fact that you said I couldn't and I did. You are a loser.

Quoting Tzeentch

Likely I would've had to point out that whatever you believe that hypothetical study proves, does not correspond to the actual conclusion of the study. Which is what I would've had to do if you referred to the studies your articles referred to, which I did take a look at.

The fact you call it a hypothetical study without follow up shows your ignorance. I'm not going to do your research for you, son. You are the one who pretends to be a researcher, a doctor, and expert, on par with people who are demonstrably smarter than you.

Quoting Tzeentch

So have I.

No you haven't. They were "biased" and blah blah blah. Pivot, pivot, pivot! :wink:

Quoting Tzeentch

My leaders? And who might those be?

Those people I referenced that you fail to distance yourself from. You know, the same people who make the same arguments you are now making. They are your government. The govern your thinking. Because you damn sure didn't get it from experts in the field. And you damn sure aren't smart enough to do your own independent thinking.

Quoting Tzeentch

which I did take a look at.

A lot of unintentional hilarity here:
https://thefederalist.com/2021/11/04/how-covid-vaccine-coercion-drove-me-out-of-west-point/

Quoting James Riley

That "medical" in their job title is something you don't have and are not smart enough to have.

Fair enough. I am also not smart enough to have "Dr" infront of my name, so I guess the following article must be true.

New research deflates current understanding of the shape of our world

The article even calls them "cutting edge". Seems legit if you ask me.

Quoting James Riley

Those people I referenced that you fail to distance yourself from. You know, the same people who make the same arguments you are now making.

Oh, who are they, and what arguments do they make?

Quoting Tzeentch

Fair enough. I am also not smart enough to have "Dr" infront of my name

Should have stopped there.

Quoting Tzeentch

Oh, who are they, and what arguments do they make?

They are who I already told you they are. Didn't you read? Didn't you pay attention? Do I have to repeat myself? Look, I don't want to have to do your thinking for you, so I'll give you a hint: Remember when I said the science was no longer the issue for me? Remember when, right after that, I explained how it was all about the politics? Remember why I said that? Remember who I said your position was aligned with? Who I said you agreed with? Remember all that? No? Okay.

Reply to James Riley It's amusing how personal you get when you run out of ideas. It's a common theme in our conversations.

Quoting Tzeentch

It's amusing how personal you get when you run out of ideas. It's a common theme in our conversations.

It's a common theme in history. And I'm in good company.

Quoting Tzeentch

It's amusing how personal you get when you run out of ideas.

P.S. I think it all started when you mistakenly intimated that those who got vaxxed were somehow government dupes who supported a violation of the stipulated individual right to bodily autonomy.

Reply to James Riley I never said that or even implied it.

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect.

Quoting Tzeentch

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect.

You are, as usual, wrong. Allow you to correct yourself (and this is only part of it):

Quoting Tzeentch

That's not a basis of trust, that's called being naive and gullible.

Quoting Tzeentch

You believe "to grow up" is to accept a subjugation of the mind to the demands of the state - and that is what states want: subjugated minds that march to the beat of its (war)drums at their beck and call.

Quoting Tzeentch

Or will you follow authority without question, and expect everyone else to do the same?

Quoting Tzeentch

You do as you're told and expect others to do the same, but not everyone has this slavish disposition and unwavering faith in government.

Quoting Tzeentch

Or is not asking questions about that also a part of being a "real American"?

You were right about one thing though: You didn't imply it. You outright said it. So again, when you start to get a little bit of your own medicine, you start to cry about me getting personal. Typical of those who pretend to individuality while hiding behind the anti-intellectual skirts of their leaders.

Reply to James Riley That had nothing to do with vaccination or anyone's right to bodily autonomy. That had to do with your seeming love of authority, and I meant every word of it.

Quoting Tzeentch

That had nothing to do with vaccination or anyone's right to bodily autonomy. That had to do with your seeming love of authority, and I meant every word of it.

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect.

Quoting James Riley

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect. — Tzeentch

Fixed that for you. Don't steal my quotes.

Quoting Tzeentch

Fixed that for you. Don't steal my quotes.

It wasn't your quote. I wrote it without your name for the reason stated. And I'll say it again:

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect.

Listen son, when you step on your pee pee, man up and admit it. Like you should have when I called your bluff about experts and you stood with egg on your face. You just keep digging. :roll:

Quoting James Riley

Listen son, when you step on your pee pee, man up and admit it. Like you should have when I called your bluff about experts and you stood with egg on your face. You just keep digging. :roll:

You think by repeating that it will make it true? Who are you trying to save face for? Me? Others? Yourself?

It's a bit embarrassing to see you latch onto the fact you were able to find a random person in an article proclaiming an opinion you liked (speaking of confirmation bias).

Your personal attacks convey only your inability to bring anything of substance to the table. I attacked your ideas, you attacked me, and in the end all you had was an inept "You're a fascist". What a joke.

Quoting Tzeentch

Who are you trying to save face for? Me?

Just trying to help. Many a young man I've seen who picks up a shovel and starts digging himself a hole and won't quit. Some folks don't want to learn. But please don't toss your dirt out on us while you dig.

Quoting Tzeentch

It's a bit embarrassing to see you latch onto the fact you were able to find a random person in an article proclaiming an opinion you liked (speaking of confirmation bias).

Do your own research, Doctor Tzeentch. :rofl: Ask Doc Fauci. Let me know what he says. Or is he some random person? Your personal attacks convey only your inability to bring anything of substance to the table. There is no person on Earth that will satisfy your obstinance. You will just pivot to some personal attack on them, like they are paid by big pharma, or they are duped by big government or have some other bias. The list will go on. You won't be satisfied because it's not about the science. The science is clear: I am right and you are wrong. No, this is about politics.

I merely pointed out that you have no scientific reason to not get the shot. Your reason is political. Your politics can be discerned by the company you keep. Look around you. Who thinks like you? Fascist stooges for Putin and his bitch Trump, that's who. They and/or their ilk are your leaders. Sheep follow them.

Quoting Tzeentch

No they don't. You won't find an expert that will tell you an unvaccinated person is more contagious than a vaccinated one, nor will you find one that tells you a vaccine is more effective than natural immunity.

"An unvaccinated person is at greater risk of becoming a host to the virus and being contagious than a vaccinated person." Is a true statement.

" an unvaccinated person is more contagious than a vaccinated one" is not a true statement because the unvaccinated person may not be infected.

Your untrue statement does not make the true statement untrue.

Quoting frank

Anti-vaccination sentiment (as it relates to COVID19) is tied to suspicions about the origins of the disease and the profitability of vaccines, as well as fears about it's safety.

"COVID-19 anti-vaccination" is just what is says: being against COVID-19 vaccines and vaccination. For whatever reason. Anti-vaccination may be related to suspicions about the origin and whatever else about the disease itself, but they are different things. The latter may be referred to as "COVID-19 conspiracy" or "Suspicion of COVID-19", etc.

Quoting frank

Anti-vaccination sentiment (as it relates to COVID19) is tied to suspicions about the origins of the disease and the profitability of vaccines, as well as fears about it's safety.

You can also think of it another way.

Let's assume it was intentional to spread COVID-19.
Anti-vaxxers believe that this is so for the sole purpose of selling vaccines.

But you should really ask yourself 1 important question!
Who are anti-vaxxers anyway? who is their leader or who started all this madness?
What makes you believe anti-vaxxer movement wasn't actually started and is supported by governments?

But why would one ask such an absurd question?
Well because anti-vaxxer movement may as well be a tool for depopulation.

Does that make any sense as to whether it is prudent to join anti-vaxxer movement?

Quoting James Riley

Many a young man I've seen who picks up a shovel and starts digging himself a hole and won't quit.

I'm afraid that's you, though.

Quoting James Riley

Ask Doc Fauci. Let me know what he says. Or is he some random person?

You didn't quote Fauci. You quoted a random person in an article whose opinions you happened to agree with, without taking a look at the studies they were basing their claims on. If you had done that, you would have known that those studies did not support the claims the person was making, which means it's either politicized or they don't understand the fact that cherry-picking the studies that agree with one's views and ignoring the rest is not science - thus they are no expert.

But even if you did quote Fauci, it means nothing to me unless they come with evidence that backs up their claims - a substantiated body of scientific evidence, not half-truths, framing or pandering to a narrative. The science around this subject has become heavily politicized and everything that supports the government narrative is latched onto, while everything that doesn't is systematically ignored or even surpressed.

Quoting James Riley

You won't be satisfied because it's not about the science. [...] No, this is about politics.

Correct. I never made it a secret I wasn't interested in a scientific debate. I outright stated it.

Quoting James Riley

Your politics can be discerned by the company you keep.

I don't keep any political company. You're just desperate to put me into a box that you can easily attack. And of those boxes you picked the most cliché of all: fascism. It's such a joke - I am not going to defend myself against such an accusation. I can only laugh at it.

Quoting James Riley

Who thinks like you? Fascist stooges for Putin and his bitch Trump, that's who.

Those people don't think like me, unless I missed their appeals to human rights.

Are you sure you aren't just projecting? An authoritarian nationalist (you call it "patriotism") with a predisposition towards force and violence?

A few pages back I asked you on two seperate occassions whether you'd be in favor of treating unvaccinated people in a similar manner to how Israel treats Palestinians. Why didn't you answer that?

Quoting Tzeentch

I never made it a secret I wasn't interested in a scientific debate. I outright stated it.

Then why did you tell me I couldn't find the scientific experts? Are you digging again? :lol:

Quoting Tzeentch

I don't keep any political company.

Ah, but you do. Just look around at who agrees with you. You remind me of the guy at the "Unite the Right" rally who was simply concerned about freedom. :roll:

Quoting Tzeentch

A few pages back I asked you on two seperate occassions whether you'd be in favor of treating unvaccinated people in a similar manner to how Israel treats Palestinians. Why didn't you answer that?

Because I don't live in Israel and don't know how they are treating Palestinians with regard to the vaccine. I'd look up their relative Covid death and hospitalization rates but I'm in the United States. We have our own problems. Maybe the U.S. should see what Israel is doing. How are their death and hospitalization rates over there? Never mind. Don't tell me, Doctor Tzeentch: just call your peers at the CDC and explain it to them.

Quoting Tzeentch

unless I missed their appeals to human rights.