Save them from what? The rest of the world or themselves?
Not that it matters much anyway.
stoicHoneyBadgerMarch 27, 2021 at 07:27#5153040 likes
seems they can learn only when the consequences kick them in the butt.
yet saving decent people from the decisions of stupid people might be a good idea... or maybe not.
Dunno. Maybe it's possible to save ourselves from idiots-breeding-idiots just by removing "Warning!" "Hazardous!" & "For External Use Only!" labels and safety features/locks from every man-made thing and let Nature run her relentlessly darwinian course... :mask:
Reply to Huh Most people have more than enough problems and loads of their own. Even if it was possible to save stupid people from themselves is anyone obliged to do so?
I think the question needs to be changed.
Is it possible to save non-stupid people from those that are stupid?
So. There's a hexagram in the "I Ching" which deals specifically with (youthful) fools (Hexagram 4, "youthful folly"), the way they act, the way they should and shouldn't act and how to deal with such folk. I'll relay a few relevant passages here:
"[i]THE JUDGMENT
YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.
It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.
In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it, provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way. A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt. Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram counsels the teacher as well as the pupil.[/i]"
"[i]Six at the beginning means:
To make a fool develop
It furthers one to apply discipline.
The fetters should be removed.
To go on in this way bring humiliation.
Law is the beginning of education. Youth in its inexperience is inclined at first to take everything carelessly and playfully. It must be shown the seriousness of life. A certain measure of taking oneself in hand, brought about by strict discipline, is a good thing. He who plays with life never amounts to anything. However, discipline should not degenerate into drill. Continuous drill has a humiliating effect and cripples a man's powers.[/i]"
"[i]Six in the fourth place means:
Entangled folly bring humiliation.
For youthful folly it is the most hopeless thing to entangle itself in empty imaginings. The more obstinately it clings to such unreal fantasies, the more certainly will humiliation overtake it. Often the teacher, when confronted with such entangled folly, has no other course but to leave the fool to himself for a time, not sparing him the humiliation that results. This is frequently the only means of rescue.[/i]"
"[i]Six in the fifth place means:
Childlike folly brings good fortune.
An inexperienced person who seeks instruction in a childlike and unassuming way is on the right path, for the man devoid of arrogance who subordinated himself to his teacher will certainly be helped.[/i]"
"[i]Nine at the top means:
In punishing folly
It does not further one
To commit transgressions.
The only thing that furthers
Is to prevent transgressions.
Sometimes an incorrigible fool must be punished. He who will not heed will be made to feel. This punishment is quite different from a preliminary shaking up. But the penalty should not be imposed in anger; it must be restricted to an objective guarding against unjustified excesses. Punishment is never an end in itself but serves merely to restore order. This applies not only in regard to education but also in regard to the measures taken by a government against a populace guilty of transgressions. Governmental interference should always be merely preventive and should have as its sole aim the establishment of public security and peace.[/i]"
http://www2.unipr.it/~deyoung/I_Ching_Wilhelm_Translation.html#4
There also are a few relevant remarks in line 1 of hexagram 37 ("the family"):
"[i]Nine at the beginning means:
Firm seclusion within the family.
Remorse disappears.
The family must form a well-defined unit within which each member knows his place. From the beginning each child must be accustomed to firmly established rules of order, before ever its will is directed to other things. If we begin too late to enforce order, when the will of the child has already been overindulged, the whims and passions, grown stronger with the years, offer resistance and give cause for remorse. If we insist on order from the outset, occasions for remorse may arise-in general social life these are unavoidable-but the remorse always disappears again, and everything rights itself. For there is nothing easily avoided and more difficult to carry through than "breaking a child's will."[/i]"
http://www2.unipr.it/~deyoung/I_Ching_Wilhelm_Translation.html#37
Comments (14)
Save them from what? The rest of the world or themselves?
Not that it matters much anyway.
yet saving decent people from the decisions of stupid people might be a good idea... or maybe not.
Dunno. Maybe it's possible to save ourselves from idiots-breeding-idiots just by removing "Warning!" "Hazardous!" & "For External Use Only!" labels and safety features/locks from every man-made thing and let Nature run her relentlessly darwinian course... :mask:
There, I fixed it for you.
I think the question needs to be changed.
Is it possible to save non-stupid people from those that are stupid?
So. There's a hexagram in the "I Ching" which deals specifically with (youthful) fools (Hexagram 4, "youthful folly"), the way they act, the way they should and shouldn't act and how to deal with such folk. I'll relay a few relevant passages here:
"[i]THE JUDGMENT
YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.
It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.
In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it, provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way. A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt. Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram counsels the teacher as well as the pupil.[/i]"
"[i]Six at the beginning means:
To make a fool develop
It furthers one to apply discipline.
The fetters should be removed.
To go on in this way bring humiliation.
Law is the beginning of education. Youth in its inexperience is inclined at first to take everything carelessly and playfully. It must be shown the seriousness of life. A certain measure of taking oneself in hand, brought about by strict discipline, is a good thing. He who plays with life never amounts to anything. However, discipline should not degenerate into drill. Continuous drill has a humiliating effect and cripples a man's powers.[/i]"
"[i]Six in the fourth place means:
Entangled folly bring humiliation.
For youthful folly it is the most hopeless thing to entangle itself in empty imaginings. The more obstinately it clings to such unreal fantasies, the more certainly will humiliation overtake it. Often the teacher, when confronted with such entangled folly, has no other course but to leave the fool to himself for a time, not sparing him the humiliation that results. This is frequently the only means of rescue.[/i]"
"[i]Six in the fifth place means:
Childlike folly brings good fortune.
An inexperienced person who seeks instruction in a childlike and unassuming way is on the right path, for the man devoid of arrogance who subordinated himself to his teacher will certainly be helped.[/i]"
"[i]Nine at the top means:
In punishing folly
It does not further one
To commit transgressions.
The only thing that furthers
Is to prevent transgressions.
Sometimes an incorrigible fool must be punished. He who will not heed will be made to feel. This punishment is quite different from a preliminary shaking up. But the penalty should not be imposed in anger; it must be restricted to an objective guarding against unjustified excesses. Punishment is never an end in itself but serves merely to restore order. This applies not only in regard to education but also in regard to the measures taken by a government against a populace guilty of transgressions. Governmental interference should always be merely preventive and should have as its sole aim the establishment of public security and peace.[/i]"
http://www2.unipr.it/~deyoung/I_Ching_Wilhelm_Translation.html#4
There also are a few relevant remarks in line 1 of hexagram 37 ("the family"):
"[i]Nine at the beginning means:
Firm seclusion within the family.
Remorse disappears.
The family must form a well-defined unit within which each member knows his place. From the beginning each child must be accustomed to firmly established rules of order, before ever its will is directed to other things. If we begin too late to enforce order, when the will of the child has already been overindulged, the whims and passions, grown stronger with the years, offer resistance and give cause for remorse. If we insist on order from the outset, occasions for remorse may arise-in general social life these are unavoidable-but the remorse always disappears again, and everything rights itself. For there is nothing easily avoided and more difficult to carry through than "breaking a child's will."[/i]"
http://www2.unipr.it/~deyoung/I_Ching_Wilhelm_Translation.html#37