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What if.... (Serial killer)

Steve Leard March 21, 2021 at 23:01 7650 views 37 comments
What if a vicious serial killer tripped on his way back from his most recent depravity and incurred a serious head injury. He is found and taken to the hospital where he lays in a coma for several months. When he awakes he has no memory of his past deeds. He recovers and spends the remainder of his life helping the poor and downtrodden. If evidence arises linking him to the crimes he committed should he be prosecuted.

Comments (37)

god must be atheist March 21, 2021 at 23:08 #513249
According to the law of my country, good deeds do not cancel out criminal deeds. Some decisions take into consideration that the defendant may do good in the future and not rescind, but in case of murder, that is not a consideration.

This is the legal side of it.

If you ask about the moral "should", then I abstain from the discussion.

I am the type of philosopher who prefers to make his points the way the proverbial umpire did: "I calls them as I sees them". In other words, I give the status quo, I may even explain things, but I make no moral judgments.
ssu March 21, 2021 at 23:14 #513258
Quoting Steve Leard
If evidence arises linking him to the crimes he committed should he be prosecuted.

Of course. This is the normal procedure. I don't think that there is any moral dilemma in this.
Steve Leard March 21, 2021 at 23:16 #513259
I see. Thank you. Would the mind and soul of the one before and the one after not be, in essence, two seperate and distinct indivuals. The mind being the seat of the soul, as it were.
counterpunch March 21, 2021 at 23:19 #513263
Reply to Steve Leard

I think he would be prosecuted, because the fact he has no memory of events, and isn't the same person anymore - is a God's eye view, not accessible to an earthly court. Assuming the evidence was compelling, and he was convicted, a good person - knowing they had a head injury and loss of memory, would accept that the evidence proves that their former self did these dastardly deeds, and would accept the consequences.

Gus Lamarch March 21, 2021 at 23:21 #513266
Quoting Steve Leard
What if a vicious serial killer tripped on his way back from his most recent depravity and incurred a serious head injury. He is found and taken to the hospital where he lays in a coma for several months. When he awakes he has no memory of his past deeds. He recovers and spends the remainder of his life helping the poor and downtrodden. If evidence arises linking him to the crimes he committed should he be prosecuted.


Amnesia does not absolve anyone, as the greatest witness of all is history.
Steve Leard March 21, 2021 at 23:25 #513269
Good points.
god must be atheist March 21, 2021 at 23:28 #513271
Quoting Gus Lamarch
Amnesia does not absolve anyone, as the greatest witness of all is history.


Not morally, but legally, amnesia can absolve even the worst criminality.

Amnesia that presents not in the criminal, but in the jury that decides the case.

If all jury members after they start to deliberate but before they come to a decision, have amnesia, then they say, "hey, this guy/gal did nothing wrong, I don't remember hearing any evidence to convict him / her." Then of course they come in, the foreperson says "not guilty in all / in any of the charges," the guy is set free, and bob is your uncle: amnesia absolved (in the criminal sense) a criminal.

I admit this is highly unlikely, but it is not impossible.
ssu March 21, 2021 at 23:39 #513278
Actually some people would handle the situation by faking that they have no memory of their past deeds.

Would be far easier to go along with the "new start".
Gus Lamarch March 21, 2021 at 23:40 #513281
Quoting god must be atheist
ot morally, but legally, amnesia can absolve even the worst criminality.

Amnesia that presents not in the criminal, but in the jury that decides the case.


The state apparatus proving me right again.
Steve Leard March 21, 2021 at 23:44 #513284
I think my view on this matter was too shallow. I assumed that such an individual would have to be judged as two seperate entities. If the killer could be judged on his deeds before his accident why could he not be judged on his deeds after the accident as well. In other words this is actually two men in one life if you like. Justice for his victims and personal responsibility on behalf of the individual in question, regardless of his present mindset and state of humanity, did not enter into my thought process.
counterpunch March 21, 2021 at 23:53 #513289
Reply to Steve Leard I got your argument, and in English Law - "mens rea" is an important legal principle.

Interesting essay on the subject here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318970308_Amnesia_and_criminal_responsibility

CONCLUSION

Claims of crime-related amnesia are particularly common among offenders of violent crimes. Medical literature is replete with such reports, and many studies have explored their underlying basis. Despite their medical legitimacy, courts insist on treating amnesia under the insanity framework, or refuse to address it altogether even though it affects the procedural fairness of the trial. In light of the developing medical literature about crime-related amnesia, courts should consider recognizing certain amnesia as providing a legitimate ground for criminal defense.
Steve Leard March 21, 2021 at 23:58 #513292
I'm sorry. What is "mens rea".
counterpunch March 22, 2021 at 00:09 #513299
Quoting Steve Leard
I'm sorry. What is "mens rea".


That's for me to know, and you to find out.
Steve Leard March 22, 2021 at 00:18 #513303
Gonna make me google it aintcha. Fine
synthesis March 22, 2021 at 00:18 #513304
Quoting god must be atheist
I am the type of philosopher who prefers to make his points the way the proverbial umpire did: "I calls them as I sees them". In other words, I give the status quo, I may even explain things, but I make no moral judgments.


Why would that bee? (just kidding :)

You call them as you see them based on what?
Steve Leard March 22, 2021 at 00:35 #513310
Ok. Just trying to wrap my wee brain around this. If i had knowledge of how wrong my actions were while committing the crime then i would be guilty of said crime and should be judged accordingly. If my actions are a result of decisions i made, and those decisions were formulated within my mind, then i am guilty. Would an injustice be created by prosecuting me when my brain has been altered and is no longer a cause of deviant thoughts but is essentially a mind born anew and without any conciousness of guilt or responsibility. The body is not the brain/mind/soul....or what have.
Steve Leard March 22, 2021 at 00:55 #513316
Oops. My bad. Just looked at some of the other threads here and realized i wasnt on reddit any more. All my protons are two places at once. Thought i felt something weird going on.
counterpunch March 22, 2021 at 00:58 #513317
Quoting Steve Leard
Ok. Just trying to wrap my wee brain around this. If i had knowledge of how wrong my actions were while committing the crime then i would be guilty of said crime and should be judged accordingly. If my actions are a result of decisions i made, and those decisions were formulated within my mind, then i am guilty. Would an injustice be created by prosecuting me when my brain has been altered and is no longer a cause of deviant thoughts but is essentially a mind born anew and without any conciousness of guilt or responsibility. The body is not the brain/mind/soul....or what have.


Good effort, but it's a little more subtle than that. It's about intent to commit the act. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse - so it's not about whether you knew it was illegal or not. Rather, it's about whether you had the mental capacity to act intentionally. If you intended what you did; regardless of whether you knew it was illegal, you are responsible for it. It would be a fairly novel application of the concept of means rea to argue, that because of a head injury and amnesia, this person is not the same person who intended those actions. I don't know how that would go down in court, because it's an extraordinary claim - and I'm not sure a judge would tolerate the prosecution being required to prove that psychologically, this is the same person.
Steve Leard March 22, 2021 at 01:05 #513320
Schooled. Thx. Think i see the flaw in my argument. Phew. You have no idea how long i have been obsessing over this problem. Problem is now i won't know what to do tomorrow.
counterpunch March 22, 2021 at 01:11 #513322
Reply to Steve Leard Quoting Steve Leard
Schooled. Thx. Think i see the flaw in my argument. Phew. You have no idea how long i have been obsessing over this problem. Problem is now i won't know what to do tomorrow.


I am an unbearable smarty pants - and as such, I can say with certainty that yours is a good question.

Steve Leard March 22, 2021 at 01:20 #513327
Thank you and i just thought of my next quandry to ponder. There is a school down the road a ways. The building has a 6 foot retainer wall around the north side. The wall has sections of slits in pairs at 10 foot intervals. I am going to run full tilt and throw myself at one of those pair of slits. If quantum mechanics is correct tomorrow i will be two of me. If that happens will i have to get another drivers license?
counterpunch March 22, 2021 at 01:38 #513333
Quoting Steve Leard
Thank you and i just thought of my next quandry to ponder. There is a school down the road a ways. The building has a 6 foot retainer wall around the north side. The wall has sections of slits in pairs at 10 foot intervals. I am going to run full tilt and throw myself at one of those pair of slits. If quantum mechanics is correct tomorrow i will be two of me. If that happens will i have to get another drivers license?


Or none! In which case, can I have your drivers license!?
Steve Leard March 22, 2021 at 01:43 #513335
No but you can have my tim hortons card. We won't need it. Awesome!!!! Judge Judy is coming on. Gotta go. Nice talkin to ya. Stay on the sunny side of the grass.
BC March 22, 2021 at 02:02 #513338
Quoting Steve Leard
Would the mind and soul of the one before and the one after not be, in essence, two separate and distinct individuals.


I have no idea what the soul is. (well... some idea, but that is neither here nor there)

One thing, though: we can only be ONE person -- not different people at different times. That's why the post-coma good person can be tried for the pre-coma bad person's crimes.

Another thing: Serial killers are thought (by some) to have physical defects in their brains which produce the aberrant and repulsive behavior. Particularly, psychopaths / sociopaths lack circuitry between the limbic system (source of fear) and their pre-frontal cortex (executive center). Most people learn to fear displeasing their caregivers (who might deprive them of love or punish them). This fear becomes the emotional basis of morality. Psychopaths / sociopaths can't develop that fear / morality connection. Most people apply morality or ethical system to control their own behavior.

One could argue that they should be held as mentally ill persons, rather than as criminals. As far as I know, there is no effective treatment for psychopathic personalities.

Quoting Steve Leard
I am going to run full tilt and throw myself at one of those pair of slits. If quantum mechanics is correct tomorrow i will be two of me.


People who try to act like photons do not pass go. They do not collect $200. They exit the game--sic transit gloria mundi [thus passes the glory of the world]
praxis March 22, 2021 at 02:06 #513341
Quoting Steve Leard
What if a vicious serial killer tripped on his way back from his most recent depravity and incurred a serious head injury. He is found and taken to the hospital where he lays in a coma for several months. When he awakes he has no memory of his past deeds. He recovers and spends the remainder of his life helping the poor and downtrodden. If evidence arises linking him to the crimes he committed should he be prosecuted.


There is no remainder to prosecute.
Steve Leard March 22, 2021 at 02:14 #513344
You guys crack me up. I wouldn't give away my tim hortons card.
TheMadFool March 22, 2021 at 05:23 #513377
I don't quite get the relevance of memory in the equation. Suppose this hapless person does remember every detail of faer horrific crimes and still transforms into a classic good guy, the problem of how we should judge this person still remains; after all, this person has changed faer ways and that's exactly the sticking point in the original scenario in which fae suffers amnesia.
javi2541997 March 22, 2021 at 05:23 #513378
Quoting Steve Leard
If evidence arises linking him to the crimes he committed should he be prosecuted.


Yes. The past still be there. It doesn't matter the new circumstances. With this premise you are literally saving that those lives taken are not worth enough if now the serial killer is a renovated man?
I guess no. He should be prosecuted.
TheMadFool March 22, 2021 at 05:48 #513380
khaled March 22, 2021 at 06:25 #513387
Quoting TheMadFool
I don't quite get the relevance of memory in the equation. Suppose this hapless person does remember every detail of faer horrific crimes and still transforms into a classic good guy, the problem of how we should judge this person still remains; after all, this person has changed faer ways and that's exactly the sticking point in the original scenario in which fae suffers amnesia.


:up:

My answer would be: We shouldn't prosecute him but people will anyways.
TheMadFool March 22, 2021 at 06:45 #513392
Reply to khaled Maajid Nawaz

Too, one of the aims of judicial punishment short of execution is to give criminals an opportunity to see the error of their ways and reform.
god must be atheist March 22, 2021 at 22:38 #513588
Quoting synthesis
You call them as you see them based on what?


On what I see.
synthesis March 22, 2021 at 23:04 #513606
Quoting god must be atheist
On what I see.


Judgments are influenced by prevailing moral standards, no?.

DingoJones March 22, 2021 at 23:33 #513619
Quoting Steve Leard
What if a vicious serial killer tripped on his way back from his most recent depravity and incurred a serious head injury. He is found and taken to the hospital where he lays in a coma for several months. When he awakes he has no memory of his past deeds. He recovers and spends the remainder of his life helping the poor and downtrodden. If evidence arises linking him to the crimes he committed should he be prosecuted.


I think it depends on the nature of the head injury. If it’s only memory loss then I would say they are still morally responsible but there is lots of data now where brain injury can drastically alter someones personality. If the head i jury has done this to such a degree that the person cannot reasonably considered the same person then it becomes less clear what moral responsibility the person has for the actions of what is essentially another person.
T Clark March 23, 2021 at 00:07 #513631
Quoting Bitter Crank
there is no effective treatment for psychopathic personalities.


Elect them president.
Steve Leard March 23, 2021 at 01:48 #513656
Thanks for that T Clark.. First chuckle today and its been a long day.
fishfry March 23, 2021 at 02:29 #513665
Quoting Steve Leard
What if a vicious serial killer tripped on his way back from his most recent depravity and incurred a serious head injury. He is found and taken to the hospital where he lays in a coma for several months. When he awakes he has no memory of his past deeds. He recovers and spends the remainder of his life helping the poor and downtrodden. If evidence arises linking him to the crimes he committed should he be prosecuted.


None other than Bill Clinton personally executed a guy just like that. Ricky Ray Rector shot a cop in Arkansas then put the gun to his own head and fired. He didn't die, but he lost enough brain function to have no memory of knowledge of what he had done. During the 1992 presidential campaign, Clinton didn't want to appear "soft on crime" so as governor of the state he insisted that Rector be executed. Clinton personally flew back to Arkansas from the campaign trail to witness the execution. Rector had so little mental function that he saved half of his last meal "to eat later."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray_Rector