Ever contemplate long term rational suicide?
So as I age (approaching 50), I became less and less enamoured with the fact that my consciousness springs forth from and is contained within a deteriorating mass of biological complexity. I haven't had any major health problems, but I've had some issues, and in those moments of suffering (where doctors couldn't figure out what the issue was and so it wasn't clear if this was a temporary state) I thought that if there an eject from life button available, I would have probably pushed it.
As of late, I see my body starting to show its signs of deterioration more, my scoliosis has worsened, I seem to have developed hemmrhoids, I can;t run like I used to, I don't sleep longer than 6 hours straight much anymore, etc etc
Overall, my quality of life seems to be clearly declining and only see that trend continuing. This complex machine is just going to break down more and more and I don't have much tolerance for enduring the accompanying suffering and loss of quality of life.
And so more and more I find myself attracted to the idea of a 10 yearish exit plan. I don't have any kids, so no strings there. I do have a wife, but she's beautiful and almost 10 years younger than me so she will find another partner. I am also completely honest with her about how I feel in terms of aging. I am thinking why not maximize the next 10 years and do what I REALLY want to do, instead of merely surviving. I have some savings due to a property I sold, and so could rent and work part-time at a low stress job (something related to cars which I love) and just live life to the fullest. Live the kind of free life I would likely live if I won the lottery. I would live in a cool light filled loft, drive an exotic car and just wake up and do whatever the fuck I want that day.
I don't have the means to extend this kind of lifestyle for longer than 10 years. Working part-time at a low paying job would mean the savings would likely run out in about 10 years and so it would be time to leave the party. But I am seem to be good with that, and why not do it before my body breaks down?
Now most of my social circle would likely me label me as nuts for thinking this way, but I suspect that within the group of philosophers in here, there are others who take a similar perspective. Am I wrong?
As of late, I see my body starting to show its signs of deterioration more, my scoliosis has worsened, I seem to have developed hemmrhoids, I can;t run like I used to, I don't sleep longer than 6 hours straight much anymore, etc etc
Overall, my quality of life seems to be clearly declining and only see that trend continuing. This complex machine is just going to break down more and more and I don't have much tolerance for enduring the accompanying suffering and loss of quality of life.
And so more and more I find myself attracted to the idea of a 10 yearish exit plan. I don't have any kids, so no strings there. I do have a wife, but she's beautiful and almost 10 years younger than me so she will find another partner. I am also completely honest with her about how I feel in terms of aging. I am thinking why not maximize the next 10 years and do what I REALLY want to do, instead of merely surviving. I have some savings due to a property I sold, and so could rent and work part-time at a low stress job (something related to cars which I love) and just live life to the fullest. Live the kind of free life I would likely live if I won the lottery. I would live in a cool light filled loft, drive an exotic car and just wake up and do whatever the fuck I want that day.
I don't have the means to extend this kind of lifestyle for longer than 10 years. Working part-time at a low paying job would mean the savings would likely run out in about 10 years and so it would be time to leave the party. But I am seem to be good with that, and why not do it before my body breaks down?
Now most of my social circle would likely me label me as nuts for thinking this way, but I suspect that within the group of philosophers in here, there are others who take a similar perspective. Am I wrong?
Comments (53)
Edit: If she's a diamond in the rough, at least get decent life insurance first.
ha ha yes I have, is the suggestion that weed might give me a reason to want to stick around longer than 10 years?
The interesting thing would be, to do this, and find at the end of the ten years that you had attained a higher wisdom, which would enable you to carry on in even greater contentment living day-to-day, the means of being no longer being of any concern to you....
yah it's all relative, and that's exactly my point, I only see my level of happiness relative to my own prior level of happiness declining as my body breaks down. There was a guy in his early 60's in my gym who said that every month he got a little weaker...I'd rather not.
The little lady will be fine, if I really decide to go down this path, I won't let her stick around, I will set her free to find a new partner.
that's a definite possibility I suppose, but not sure about the higher wisdom part, I am pretty convinced this is all just a random mess
I wish you can do it. I am younger than you (23 years old) so I do not know what is the feeling of reach 50 but I guess is an important period of time where you clearly see how everything starts "fading away" slowly.
Nevertheless, despite I am young I also had that feeling of "I don't to continue here" because sometimes life itself is so heavy.
But do not get obsessed in this feeling. Life is a continue challenge. Also you have a partner with you that can support in the worst times. This is a gift because I never had a girlfriend/partner so I think meeting some in life is like a treasure.
Look, our lives soon or after will end. Your and mine. But somehow this is positive. We have to reach goals and make efforts to make the people who love us happy and confortable. Also do not being sad for feeling as "load". This also happens. I don't understand why the brain drives us to some painful situations. Probably to make us stronger?
Yes. Not completely the same, but I have an end of life plan which involves refusal of medical treatment and assisted suicide in the case of terminal illness. I don't think there's any dignity in clinging on to life by the fingernails at all costs. I do have kids, so my age variables are more than yours. For me it's not hedonic though. I'm lucky enough to pretty much live how I like anyway. I just don't think it's ethical for me to expect thousands of pounds to be spent on keeping me alive after a good innings when there's younger people who'd be better served by the money.
I can see what you mean though. I suppose in all honesty some of my decision is informed by the fact that I'll enjoy life less in those conditions that I would young and healthy, so there's less for me to weigh against the competing duty. I'd be more keen to have thousands spent on keeping me alive so I can hike Dartmoor with my family than having the same money spent so I can watch daytime TV and complain about my arthritis.
no such thing as choice in randomness
your reasons are much less selfish!
Which is just an unproved assertion. Just as materiality is itself an unproved assertion.
Anyway, to the point. I agree with the Stoics, where suicide is preferable to absolute misery, torture and pain for which there is no escape. But only that. Only in the most grave of circumstances. Otherwise, live to die, die to live. :)
[i]Man is a type of God, who observes the world around him and makes poetry, while being tied and bound by finitude for his biological temporal existence. His desire for creation, for experience, is the only thing that can lead him to total and absolute apotheosis.
He may live the way he want. Who in the end should feel fulfilled is him and only him.[/i]
But you seem to suggest that your SO will be fine. If you think that's the case, then do what you wish. Maybe I'm going through a dark phase - which I actually am - but, I worry more about getting throughout the next few weeks, never mind years. No financial problems or anything like that, just general disorientation. If you find something you like to do, that's the point of living, it seems to me.
As I just mentioned, 10 years can go by quickly, but it is a long time. Who knows what will happen tomorrow, never mind a single year?
As to your statement about our consciousness being a mass of deteriorating biological mass, sure, you can describe that way, if you wish. You can also think of it as nature knowing itself. Or you can say it's all a total mystery and our labels are placeholders for ignorance. Or we are just machines, destined to doom. It's a matter of preference in these questions, not matters of fact, I think, simply because we are so ignorant. But that might just be me.
I disagree, there comes a point where the balance sheet shows more suffering than happiness, and then it's time to leave
yeah I was raised a theist and my brain became a little hard wired with the God gives meaning and purpose to everything and now that's been taken away, and I face the reality that we are complex machines, it does seem all rather hollow in contrast
That's fine. You have the freedom to disagree.
"there comes a point where the balance sheet shows more suffering than happiness, and then it's time to leave"
But I'd still be careful with what you're saying. Does it have to be 51% suffering and 49% happiness to end it all?
If there's no hope in sight, I understand, but something that general has dangerous implications. I agree, if the suffering is unbearable, I think the person is justified and I sympathize and understand their position. However, if it's something that can be remedied in the foreseeable future, then it shouldn't be taken that way.
Or, you should still wait and see if it will get better. Maybe you don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, but wait a few weeks. Maybe a couple months.
See if things change first, before you end it all. And if you decide to in the end, you have my sympathies. I definitely understand the suffering of life isn't easy to come to terms with.
But I recommend heeding a quick thought:
All suffering in our lives is caused by our sense perceptions, and our sense perceptions are caused by the impermanent states of affairs we find ourselves in. If we just let go of these impermanent things, then our suffering goes along with them. The pain might very well not, but the suffering does. There is a mountain of difference between suffering and pain.
If you are interested I'd recommend reading chapter 2 of the Bhagavad Gita, and reading up on the teachings of the Buddha Siddharta Goatama. As well as the Stoics, Daoists and others who said very similar things.
Anyway, that's my final say on the issue.
Maybe I'm being too semantical here, but I don't think we are machines in any relevant sense of the word. You can say we are biological organisms that decay in accordance with the laws of nature and it would be strictly speaking true. On the other hand, listen to your favorite music, watch your favorite film or re-read your favorite novel. Is that "mere" biology? Sure, we aren't extra-biological, but speaking of favorite music and the like in terms of biology seems to really mis-describe the situation.
Having said that, it doesn't diminish your feeling of going to less with time.
Quoting dazed
I’m much older than you and have had three hemorrhoids for 15 years. They’ve never gotten any worse, just occasional discomfort and red spots on the toilet tissue; nothing to start planning the end of my life about.
I haven’t been able to run for 20 years, due to a work injury and the onset of arthritis in a knee...but my mind runs off all the time into vistas opened up by the books I have read and am reading, and the thoughts I have nourished by them concerning what’s going on in the world and my own life.
I never sleep longer than 6 hrs either, but, when I wake up I betake myself to some enjoyable, profitable activity, or just lie in the darkness contemplating my most recent dream, or my life in general, or some peculiar problem I’m dealing with.
In fine, I’d say your physical problems are unworthy of thoughts-of-death. I don’t know about scoliosis, for I don’t experience that physically. All I would say is that we all experience a scoliosis (warping) of the soul, and that that is what we should be most concerned about, whatever our physical state or age.
You don’t have to win the lottery to live an enjoyable life. If you know how to work on cars, you can get work anywhere. I’m a handyman, and it is hard to avoid all the appeals from friends and family to do this or that for them...
Live your dream, before you die. I’ve always wanted to travel the country. You dont have to have a bunch of money or a fancy car. It’s taken me thirty years of philosophical study to realize this: all you need are your soul and two legs to walk on to go whithersoever you will.
"What is terrible is easy to endure."
~Philodemus, Tetrapharmakos
"... there is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn ... One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
~Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus, Ch. 4
:death: :flower:
I think your plan, @dazed would only work if you drank some time-release poison now, that activates in your system in ten years, or else if you hire a hit man or woman to off you in precisely ten years. If it comes to die in ten years, and you haven't secured a way to die, then at that point (with a healthy mind and in a relatively healthy body) that decision won't come to fruition.
This is a good idea, man. But I suggest you, and about 7000 000 000 humans ought to have done that ten years ago. Then and only then would we free up some very much needed elbow-room on this finite-surface planet.
I understand not wanting to live beyond the capacity to take one's life. I don't understand planning for what one will want in the future. One can strive for something in the present unfolding of becoming. That effort naturally leads to planning for the future. But the negation of the future requires no preparation.
In the analogy given of life as a party, if you are preoccupied about when you will leave it, you have already left it.
You're not wrong. I don't think we're crazy. We're just different. I sometimes talk to my wife about it, and she doesn't really like the subject. Maybe some people are just more disgusted by their own aging? I'm not saying it's easy to choose the moment (and I do worry about you choosing the moment ahead of time), but for a long time I've liked the idea of consciously walking into death. To me this is quite different than youthful angst. There's something beautiful about it, letting it all go, giving the space to the young. It only makes sense if one feels completed, or as completed as one is going to be.
I'm healthy and active at the moment, so I usually think of embracing death if faced with a nasty cancer that wouldn't be worth fighting. To cling to life at all costs just seems servile. Perhaps walking into death is also a fascinating challenge, the final frontier. As has been noted before, simply thinking that one could put an end to life makes life more bearable, more of a choice.
appreciate the perspectives.
we all have different tolerances for suffering and I fully recognize I have very little tolerance, so as things break down it affects me more than most.
I've always been a doer, my states of happiness have almost always been related to the physical and sensations
so sports, lifting weights, driving fast cars, eating great food, sex, being in nature (sex in nature being one of the best!)
these have been the primary drivers for me
and what's clear to me is that as I age, my ability to engage in those things and derive enjoyment from those things is clearly declining and will only continue to do so
one example:
I've always been a pretty good soccer player and still play open age but I've gone from one of the better players on my team to one of the worst and am almost a liability now
and yes sure I could move to the over 35 league, and I will, but it's simply not the same
that's just one example of the decline
so i feel like I should maximize what I have left for the next 10 years and not worry if I run out of money by then and can no longer survive...it will be a good run!
my brother!
my wife also hates when I talk this way
and I also love the sense of freedom that comes with conscious recognition of the choice to choose the timing of your exit
I live in a traditionally Catholic country. Catholics officially abhor suicide. And yet traditionally, people typically had an oleander plant at their house, and esp. at the local church. Oleander is not native to these places, and it has to be moved indoors for the winter, it's too cold for it outside.
Mind you, oleander is highly toxic, fatally. At first glance, death by oleandrin poisoning looks like a heart attack.
But apparently, people here have had a tradition of keeping a means for suicide and murder ready. It's not a topic open for public discussion. Perhaps it has made their lives easier, having the means for the final solution so readily at hand, by making the choice absolutely clear, each and every day.
interesting, sounds like more people think this way than they reveal
I’m a young man in my mid 20s and I actually already have a 30 year-ish Suicide plan for the exact same sorts of reasons that you expressed your desire to have one. So, I do think that what you are suggesting can be pretty rational under ideal circumstances. Having said that, I do think it’s pretty dangerous to leave yourself in financial destitute in 10 years because you think that your Suicide plan would actually work out. Statistically, suicide plans rarely actually work out in the end. There are many obstacles and logistical challenges to overcome that are quite difficult. They mostly relate to the method that you will want to use in your suicide. Here is a list of what I think are the best courses of action to consider and why even those courses of action are quite challenging:
1. Get legal euthanasia in Switzerland. There are some organizations In Switzerland like Dignitas who provide legal euthanasia to foreigners even if they don’t have a terminal illness. You just have to have some illnesses and bad health that can’t easily be cured. So, you would probably qualify. It does cost like $15000 though and I think they require a doctor from your country to sign off on you having conditions bad enough to warrant euthanasia so that could be pretty difficult to get. It’s probably the most painless and reliable method though.
2. Using a gun and hanging are probably the most obvious reliable options. Though, having a botched attempt will likely be catastrophic for you especially a botched gun suicide attempt. I am really scared of that as that just makes your life a living hell. Also, those attempts leave behind a nasty scenery to anyone that discovers your body. This might not be something that you are ok with. Also, I think it takes more willpower to use those methods because most of us are biologically programmed to be extremely hesitant to commit violence against ourselves. By contrast, methods that involve seemingly benign things like pills and gas that put you to sleep are easier to actually go through with.
3. Another really underrated method is using certain kinds of inorganic salts like Sodium Nitrite or Sodium Azide. These are legal to buy and own(though, you might get cops to come to your door if you try to buy them as many anti-suicide advocates will make fake ads for those salts to essentially identify people that might be looking to commit suicide.). These salts get mixed with water to produce a euthanasia cocktail. Also, there is a prescription drug that you are strongly recommended in having to avoid puking the salts out and having a botched attempt. The great thing about these salts is that they produce little suffering and you will just have a normal headache and dizziness. Also, if your attempt
fails and you get revived, the attempt will not cause any permanent damage and it will be a pretty pleasant revival. Nonetheless, you would have to find a discreet way to buy those salts which may be hard since you live with your wife. Also, many manufacturers of these salts have decided to stop selling them to individuals and now they only sell them to companies because these salts are mostly something that just gets used commercially. So, I’m not sure how easy it is to actually purchase that stuff.
4. The last option that seems kinda reasonable is using innate gases like Nitrogen to quickly put yourself to sleep. This method is very technical though and you really have to know what you’re doing and it can cause permanent brain damage so that’s not ideal. It’s very quick and painless though.
So, given the logistical challenges of actually committing suicide, I don’t ever want to assume that I can actually make it work in the end. Given this, I am actually investing a crap ton of money into my retirement plan because I don’t want to assume that I will definitely be dead by then. It would really suck to have to go through the pains of aging while being impoverished also. Being stuck in an abusive government nursing home for the impoverished is probably the closest thing to hell that could be found in an American life.
Well, this is supposedly the normal curve of happiness.
Fifty is pretty young to be thinking like this, even with some modest health issues.
It strikes me that 10 years from now is a pretty safe and distant time. I wonder if this is a serious idea or if it is a coping tool for your managing now. For instance - I have a way out on the horizon so I need not be too concerned by the present. This approach has a range of functions depending upon how one is living or thinking about life.
My overall approach when talking to people who are experiencing suicidal ideation (not you, naturally) is to establish what their reasons for living are. If these are sufficiently strong, the reasons for dying are generally overcome.
A very wise man once said, "Success in life is not doing what you want to do, instead, it's doing what you have to do."
If doing what you want to do is identical to what you have to do, you win! This is the prize awarded to those who are able to achieve true balance in their lives.
At fifty, the good times are just beginning (as revealed by the graph). Hang-in and stop bringing down your beautiful wife. If you have not discovered your purpose as of yet, make it taking great care of this woman you love dearly. Is there a better reason to exist than that?
Quoting Valentinus
THAT...is a very wise statement.
:up:
Yep. :smirk:
Morbid brothers of the void! I like that Viking stuff where you float away on the ice. Dying alone is beautiful, I say! And I mean it. It's so deeply personal. It's going out to meet the dragon alone, a sort of peak heroic moment right at the end. It's more civilized that charging at machine guns with bayonets. I don't want it to be messy. It should be clean & serene. Ideally one's corpse would just evaporate. Perhaps in some civilized future to come, people will embrace death this way.
For me it's complicated. If life had a meaning, it wouldn't be worth living. It's the abyss that makes things rich. I do value a background sense that 'everything is empty --- all is vanity.' That pokes breathing-holes in the human drama. It's all dream, yeah, but we mostly forget that, and it's good that we do. Have you read Cioran ? You are dark enough to appreciate him. I'm just finally reading him closely.
Just some input: for me the fear is deterioration of character and mind. I can accept getting frailer and weaker within limits. I've seen people paralyzed by strokes. That's what makes we question the life-at-all-costs attitude. I hate the idea of being dependent. I guess it's just pride. But I want to go out in possession of myself, if possible. [Unless something stupid goes wrong, though, I expect to be spry at 60, which is more than 10 years from now.]
This is complex issue. Young people are dramatic about suicide. They haven't lived, cannot feel completed yet. But older people can actually feel that they've witnessed the essence. The idea of transcending attachment to the ego is involved here. I understand people's misgivings. It's a messy issue. But there is something about walking into death. Socrates and Christ are major cultural heroes. This stuff is anything but new, right?
:up:
If you make it there, that is. It's a crap shoot. :cool:
yeah I am a pretty basic dude
my reasons for living are sex, good food, driving sports cars, playing sports, lifting weights, being in nature and sharing laughs and good moments with family and friends
I am entirely uncultured (no interest in the arts or anything the like), don't read and am not interested in broader goods (too difficult to define in my post-theistic chaotic mind)
so as a basic dude, the more my body my breaks down and my reasons for living become less accessible and then clouded by annoyances like poor sleep, physical limitations and ailments, the balance sheet starts to sway towards I'd rather go out on a high...
living for the happiness of another (not matter how much I love her) is I think a recipe for disaster
I can't suffer through simply for her sake, I wouldn't expect that from her either
it's more like I can see that the party is going to get old and no fun anymore and so want to enjoy the last hour or so
It is unfortunate that you are a man of neither arts nor letters...I remember watching the last concert Vladimir Horowitz played. He had returned to his native land after a long period of exile, now well into his 80s. The hall was packed, young boys “hanging from the rafters” to get a view. As he played a Mozart sonata, the camera panned to a Russian civil servant of some sort sitting erect in the audience, all dressed up in his uniform, his eyes closed, face composed; but a single tear running down his cheek...
...Vladimir died a few weeks later...of old age.
There are forms of physical effort and conditioning that last much longer than others. I have had very old people toss me around like a rag doll. I don't think I will get that far but trying to do it has helped me a lot.
I've seen this play out in the sport of rock climbing. Sometimes those afflicted follow through. Becoming obsessed with physical performance and not capable of gradually adjusting one's attitude over time is a recipe for termination.
There are times when I think back on my life in the sport, reflect on my performances when young, but I see all that from a different perspective now, and it seems distant and pleasurable but not all that significant. Young, energetic climbers frequently anticipate themselves in old age retaining that fascination that compels them. But it ain't necessarily so. Give yourself a little slack.
yup I imagine life expectancy for savages like me is lower, because if you aren't into the arts and intellectual pursuits, then as your body breaks down the physical sensations and outlets that sustained you wither away....there's less reason to live
btw I have always been a savage, as a child I never read for pleasure (only out of obligation), didn't like puzzles or board games that were strategic...I would rather do than think
i mean the sports performance is just one aspect of the overall deterioration that will significantly diminish my enjoyment in life
If you decide not to terminate early, you can carve wooden ducks in old age. Oops, that's artistic. Maybe not. Don't overthink it.
Currently we provide care for a patient from the point of the parents considering conception, conception, embryonic growth, birth, childhood, etc until such time, whenever it may be, that the patient says "enough. I am ready to go. Where is the exit please?" At that point all the healthcare providers that had been around, nosing into all sorts of affairs throughout the patient's life all run away and claim the patient has a mental health disorder that must be treated. This is an embarrassing failure. This is arguably the most needed time for a decent healthcare team that advocates for the will of the patient; instead we walk away, leaving the patient utterly alone, and worse, feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with them for asking for the exit. This has led to something called "suicide tourism" wherein North American residents go to European countries which allow Euthanasia and remain there long enough to meet the qualifications required. Then the individual electing such is euthanized and the family returns the body to their country of origin to be buried or cremated or whatever they had chosen. I find it fundamentally wrong that one needs to leave their home country in order to be treated as they wish in their final time in this life. Who am I to decide for them what is appropriate care? I am not living their life.
I am with you, but as you have experienced novel perspectives on choosing death face a lot of resistance. Maybe in 10 years we will be closer to the model you espouse and my exit will be easy peasy.
This is good thinking! Find the job you enjoy doing, even if it pays less. Do not put off living in the moment because the moment is ALL we ever have. To assume you will live for 10 more years is faulty thinking, rather assume that today is the last day of your life and one day you will be right.