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What is the relationship, if any, between emergent properties and quantum mechanics?

Don Wade March 01, 2021 at 16:05 11250 views 54 comments
The language used in the discription of Emergent Properties seems very similar to the language used to describe quantum mechanics. The relationship - if any - seems to be philosophical. Can someone provide references?

Comments (54)

Don Wade March 01, 2021 at 16:13 #504360
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330723666_Emergent_Quantum_Mechanics_David_Bohm_Centennial_Perspectives#:~:text=These%20properties%20are%20closely%20related%20to%20Emergent%20Quantum,zone%20between%20classical%20%28Hamiltonian%29%20mechanics%20and%20its%20quantization.
Kaiser Basileus March 02, 2021 at 01:37 #504576
Emergence is identical to relationship. Build a Venn diagram of any two things. The overlap is where emergent qualities exist. Whether they are relevant enough to be considered as separate things themselves depends on intended use. Emergent properties are a different metaphor for the same things but at a higher level/scale of understanding.
T Clark March 02, 2021 at 02:20 #504592
Reply to Don Wade

Here's a link to a famous article written in 1972 - "More is Different."

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/177/4047/393

You'll find it referenced in just about every article you read on the hierarchies of science and emergence. Take a look. It really helped me.

Emergence and quantum mechanics describe different kinds of phenomena.
jgill March 02, 2021 at 03:34 #504637

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Emergence is identical to relationship


Here is one of my examples of weak emergence. What is the "relationship"?

User image


Kaiser Basileus March 02, 2021 at 06:21 #504672
It's the vernacular definition, the relationship between parts. Test it by replacing the term relationship where you'd otherwise use the term emergence and see if the relationships still holds true, if the sentence still makes sense. Weak emergence, weak relationships > The emergent properties apparently aren't very strongly connected to the parts. Makes sense. And it points to missing casual data.
jgill March 03, 2021 at 00:23 #504906
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Weak emergence, weak relationships > The emergent properties apparently aren't very strongly connected to the parts


"Weak emergence" is a technical term and does not mean "weakly" emergent. It implies the equivalent of a computer program producing an unexpected and largely unpredictable outcome. Thus the image I posted.
Pop March 03, 2021 at 00:41 #504914
Quoting jgill
Here is one of my examples of weak emergence. What is the "relationship"?


Is this the result of one of your mathematical formulas ?

" I have written many math programs over the years in connection with my interest in infinite compositions of complex functions in the complex plane. In another forum (now deceased) there was minor controversy over whether imagery produced from this mathematics - and virtually unpredictable - was a kind of art, like fractals." - jgill
jgill March 03, 2021 at 04:21 #504997
Quoting Pop
Is this the result of one of your mathematical formulas ?


Yes. I've developed the elementary theory of infinite compositions of complex functions in the complex plane - a subject of very, very low importance in mathematics. It's a kind of dynamic systems. The image arises from a BASIC program I wrote some time ago.

David Chalmers, a philosopher and social scientist, wrote a nice article on weak and strong emergence a few years ago.
Pop March 03, 2021 at 05:20 #505007
Reply to jgill In my opinion it is also a very interesting and valid art form. It shows how emergence occurs. :up:

If it was me, I would use the formula as the title for the work, and in the blurb I would explain how consciousness emerges in a similar manner, as a relationship of interacting parts, consistent with complexity theory.

Just something that came to my mind - you obviously have your own plans for it. :smile:

Gnomon March 03, 2021 at 23:14 #505326
Quoting Don Wade
The language used in the discription of Emergent Properties seems very similar to the language used to describe quantum mechanics. The relationship - if any - seems to be philosophical. Can someone provide references?

Generally, Emergent Properties are characteristic of a system-as-a-whole, rather than of individual components of the system. Those collective properties seem to mysteriously emerge from complex interrelationships between parts of the whole. The emergent effects are called "weak" when the ultimate cause is hidden within the complexity of causation. But when the effect can be traced back to a specific cause, it is considered to be "strong". So, Quantum Mechanics is a misnomer, because the links between causes & effects are seldom traceable to an obvious unbroken chain of causation. That's why I say that Quantum Theory has crossed over the line between reductive Science & holistic Philosophy. :smile:

Emergence in Philosophy :
In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors which emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Emergence in Physics :
The term emergent is used to evoke collective behaviour of a large number of microscopic constituents that is qualitatively different than the behaviours of the individual constituents.
https://www.nature.com/articles/npjquantmats201624

Emergence is a Holistic phenomenon, that can't be explained via reductive methods of science :
Reductionism breaks the world into elementary building blocks. Emergence finds the simple laws that arise out of complexity. These two complementary ways of viewing the universe come together in modern theories of quantum gravity.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/to-solve-the-biggest-mystery-in-physics-join-two-kinds-of-law-20170907/

Causality in a quantum world :
. . . quantum superposition can create situations in which cause-and-effect relationships between events are not well-defined.
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/PT.6.1.20180328a/full/
Pop March 03, 2021 at 23:47 #505331
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Emergence is identical to relationship.


Quoting Kaiser Basileus
It's the vernacular definition, the relationship between parts


I think you are correct. Its not the typical understanding of emergence, but if a relationship is a connection between parts, a cooperation, repulsion, or interaction, then the relationship is an emergent property that neither of the parts can possess on their own, so relationship = emergence. I think this would be the most fundamental level of emergence.

If I follow the logic, it leads me to conclude that the relationship of information and energy is matter, where matter is an emergent property! I think this is correct.

A good paper on emergence can be found here. There is nothing in it that contradicts this understanding.
Pop March 03, 2021 at 23:53 #505332
Quoting Gnomon
Generally, Emergent Properties are characteristic of a system-as-a-whole, rather than of individual components of the system.


What is the minimum number of parts required to constitute a system? I think two!

enformation = matter. As per above post. What do you think?
Kaiser Basileus March 04, 2021 at 00:03 #505336
Reply to Pop

My metaphor for that relationship is that matter is low entropy, entangled energy, but i'm not a physicist. Anyhow, you've got the idea straight.
Don Wade March 04, 2021 at 00:07 #505337
Emergence is a lot like hunting and finding Easter Eggs. Sometimes, one can even find the so-called "prize egg". My opinion, (not even a theory), is: the "hidden-until-discovered" properties defining emergence is how the mind works (more neuroscience than physic). The brain is limited in the number of "properties" that can be assililated into what we define as an object, or idea. This limiting factor keeps us from seeing what would normally seem obvious - until it jumps-out-at-us (discovery). Then we try to explain why we didn't see it before by coining words like "emergence". If one really searches, they can discover all kinds of emergent properties in many fields of study. As a result, I believe "emergence" is a very interesting field of study in itself.
Pop March 04, 2021 at 00:24 #505340
Quoting Don Wade
If one really searches, they can discover all kinds of emergent properties in many fields of study.


If a relationship is the minimum requirement for emergence, then the entire universe is constantly emerging.
Gnomon March 04, 2021 at 00:51 #505343
Quoting Pop
What is the minimum number of parts required to constitute a system? I think two!

That's a hard question to answer. A system is composed of interacting parts, not just to a particular number of elements. For example, a pile of sand might contain thousands of grains, but each grain reacts to inputs of energy independently. Yet, if you add some lime cement to the pile, it will soon harden into the integrated system of grains we call "concrete", with emergent structural qualities not found in the grains. In that case, the multiple grains act together as one. Such interaction is what the site linked below calls "Process". :smile:

1. Sorites paradox : If one removes a single grain of sand from a heap, they still have a heap. If they keep removing single grains, the heap will disappear. Can a single grain of sand make the difference between heap and non-heap? [Holism]
http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page85.html

When you look at any system, in its simplest form, it has 3 components. It’s what I’ll call IPO: Input, Process, Output.
https://www.asianefficiency.com/systems/3-parts-to-every-system/

Quoting Pop
If I follow the logic, it leads me to conclude that the relationship of information and energy is matter, where matter is an emergent property! I think this is correct. . . . enformation = matter. As per above post. What do you think?

Yes. But it depends on what you mean by "matter". Aristotle's Hylomorphism (matter + form) was not referring to any particular lump of actual Matter, but as the general Potential to become a particular material object. For example, raw copper & tin, have the potential to become bronze, and a shapeless lump of bronze has the potential to become a statue of Zeus. But what actualizes that potential is the mind or soul of the artist, who enforms the raw materials.

So, being picky, I would reword your equation as Raw Material + Enformation = Artwork (a physical work of art). Or perhaps : matter (lower case) + Enformaction (guided energy) = Novel System (with emergent properties). Or, more to your point : Primal Energy (input) + Natural Laws (process) = Organized Matter (output). That equation is referring to the energetic blast of energy from the Big Bang, which becomes organized (processed) into matter (atoms of hydrogen). Anyway, your equation of Enformation with Matter is essentially what Einstein was saying in (E = MC^2) : raw energy + the enforming power of light vibrations = produces the emergent property of matter called "Mass". Sorry, I may be just complicating your elegant equation. :yikes:
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 01:08 #505349
Quoting Gnomon
a pile of sand might contain thousands of grains, but each grain reacts to inputs of energy independently. Yet, if you add some lime cement to the pile, it will soon harden into the integrated system of grains we call "concrete", with emergent structural qualities not found in the grains.


Not every change in characteristics is emergence. In your example, the behavior of the concrete is directly causally related to the physical and chemical characteristics of the sand and cement. That's not emergence.

Pop March 04, 2021 at 01:17 #505351
Quoting Gnomon
But what actualizes that potential is the mind or soul of the artist, who enforms the raw materials.


The relationship actualizes the potential. @Kaiser Basileus nailed it!

Quoting Gnomon
your equation of Enformation with Matter is essentially what Einstein was saying in (E = MC^2) : raw energy + the enforming power of light vibrations = produces the emergent property of matter called "Mass"


Yes Einstein equated energy and mass. Whereas information describes volume and pattern ( form ). So the two together describe matter.

Enformation cannot exist without being embedded in matter, in my understanding.
Gnomon March 04, 2021 at 01:26 #505355
Quoting T Clark
Not every change in characteristics is emergence. In your example, the behavior of the concrete is directly causally related to the physical and chemical characteristics of the sand and cement. That's not emergence.

Are you saying that concrete does not have emergent (structural) qualities that are not characteristic of the sand & cement separately? Since the new properties of the combined elements are directly caused by combining specific chemical qualities, I'd call it "Weak Emergence". But, I was only trying to give a simple example of emergence. A complex example of "Strong Emergence" would involve the same kind of technicalities and uncertainties as the "Hard Problem" of Consciousness. :smile:
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 01:35 #505358
Quoting Gnomon
Are you saying that concrete does not have emergent (structural) qualities that are not characteristic of the sand & cement separately?


The term "emergence" has a specific technical meaning in this context. If it means what you indicate it does, all physical and chemical interaction between matter and energy represents emergence. The word loses all meaning.
Gnomon March 04, 2021 at 01:39 #505360
Quoting Pop
The relationship actualizes the potential. Kaiser Basileus nailed it!

Yes. It's the mind of the artist that imagines the future interrelations that are currently only potential. The artwork is the final (actualized) product or output of combining several raw potentials. Hence, the art is in the Actualization of Potential. :smile:

Enformation : The Latin root “informare” meant to give recognizable (meaningful, significant) shape to something. In that sense a sculptor “in-forms” a blank slab of marble with a physical shape to represent a pre-existing image in his mind. In other words, a mental image somehow “causes” physical raw material to take on a shape that, in turn, “causes” cognition in another mind.
http://enformationism.info/enformationism.info/page2%20Welcome.html

"Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it."
___Michaelangelo
User image
Pop March 04, 2021 at 01:43 #505362
Reply to T Clark "In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors which emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole." - Wikipedia

The normal understanding relates to complex systems, but as per previous posts a relationship is an emergent property, unless you can prove otherwise?
Pop March 04, 2021 at 02:04 #505372
Quoting Gnomon
Yes. It's the mind of the artist that imagines the future interrelations that are currently only potential.


This would be G*D?

I'm seeing it more along the lines of the entire universe is constantly emerging due to the evolving relationship of information and energy.

Don Wade March 04, 2021 at 02:04 #505373
Reply to Pop There seems to be many ways to express objects, or actions, as emergent. Scientist seem to shy away from the study of emergence because it seems too much like magic. However, that criteria may be a draw to other people. Being familiar with emergence helps to eliminate some of the spookiness from the subject. I can imagine Neils Bohr must have had similar thoughts - when trying to convince Einstine about his thoughts on the structure of the atom.
Pop March 04, 2021 at 02:12 #505375
Reply to Don Wade Would you disagree with relationship = emergence? Initially I did, but I couldn't find a logical flaw, perhaps you can?
Don Wade March 04, 2021 at 02:20 #505380
Reply to T Clark Some interesting things happen when we think of a pile of sand. Example: "Sorites Paradox" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox . A grain of sand has certain properties we recognize. A pile of sand also has certain properties we can recognize. But, we can't visualize the two groups of properties at the same time - resulting in a so-called paradox. In this example the "pile" of sand could also be called an emergent property. This example could also be listed a solution to the paradox.
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 02:23 #505381
Quoting Pop
"In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors which emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole." - Wikipedia

The normal understanding relates to complex systems, but as per previous posts a relationship is an emergent property, unless you can prove otherwise?


Sand and cement have known physical and chemical properties, including strength. Resistance to force, i.e. strength, is not a new property or behavior and your example is not emergence. Unless you can prove otherwise.
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 02:24 #505383
Reply to Don Wade As I indicated with Pop, this is not the correct use of the word "emergence" in this context.
Pop March 04, 2021 at 02:27 #505387
Reply to T Clark The relationship here is sand and cement. The result is concrete - is concrete not an emergent property that neither sand or cement posses on their own ?
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 02:30 #505388
Quoting jgill
David Chalmers, a philosopher and social scientist, wrote a nice article on weak and strong emergence a few years ago.


I downloaded the Chalmers article. Thanks for the suggestion.

I didn't really buy his distinction between strong and weak emergence. Most of the interesting phenomena I think of when I talk about emergence - e.g. transitions between hierarchies of knowledge such as between chemistry and biology - he calls weak emergence. The only phenomenon he considers strongly emergent is consciousness. That's as far as I got. It's a bad case of special pleading and I don't buy it.

Don Wade March 04, 2021 at 02:31 #505389
Reply to Pop I believe you are correct..in philosophy. Philosophy is not bound by the regidity of "science" - so, yes I believe you could make a convincing argument in your favor.
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 02:34 #505390
Quoting Pop
The relationship here is sand and cement. The result is concrete - is concrete not an emergent property that neither sand or cement posses on their own ?


Concrete is not a property, it is a material made up of sand, cement, and water. Strength is a property which is relevant to concrete and all three of its component materials.

Pop March 04, 2021 at 02:42 #505392
Reply to T Clark Semantics. The emergent property of concrete is structural rigidity, which is not present in any of its component materials. But in their relationship emerges a structurally rigid material.
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 02:53 #505399
Quoting Pop
Semantics. The emergent property of concrete is structural rigidity, which is not present in any of its component materials. But in their relationship emerges a structurally rigid material.


I agree. It is semantics. You have misunderstood the meaning of the word "emergence" in this context.

Pop March 04, 2021 at 03:01 #505403
Quoting T Clark
You have misunderstood the meaning of the word "emergence" in this context.


Please enlighten me?
T Clark March 04, 2021 at 03:05 #505407
Quoting Pop
Please enlighten me?


I've taken my best shot. If what I've written so far hasn't convinced you, let's leave it at that.

Pop March 04, 2021 at 03:10 #505409
Quoting Don Wade
I believe you are correct..in philosophy. Philosophy is not bound by the regidity of "science" - so, yes I believe you could make a convincing argument in your favor.


If you happen to think of something let me know. I'm always interested in alternative views.
Gnomon March 04, 2021 at 23:42 #505833
Quoting Pop
Enformation cannot exist without being embedded in matter, in my understanding.

Yes. But, I make a spelling distinction between the causal Energy form (Enformation) and the embodied form (Information). In its raw disembodied form I spell it EnFormAction, to denote the general causal potential of the evolving universe. Technically, ideas (information) in the mind are embodied, even though they can be transferred into the energetic form for artificial transmission between bodies. :nerd:

EnFormAction :
Ententional Causation. A proposed metaphysical law of the universe that causes random interactions between forces and particles to produce novel & stable arrangements of matter & energy. It’s the creative force (aka : Divine Will) of the axiomatic eternal deity that, for unknown reasons, programmed a Singularity to suddenly burst into our reality from an infinite source of possibility. AKA : The creative power of Evolution; the power to enform; Logos; Change.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

Information :
When spelled with an “I”, Information is a noun, referring to data & things [physical objects]. When spelled with an “E”, Enformation is a verb, referring to energy and processes.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html

Quoting Pop
Yes. It's the mind of the artist that imagines the future interrelations that are currently only potential. — Gnomon
This would be G*D?

Yes. In the Enformationism thesis, I refer to the First Cause Enformer as the "Programmer", "Creator", or "G*D". But, since that "Artist" necessarily exists outside the artwork, S/he cannot be identified with Nature. Anyway, my G*D is just a hypothesis : a figment of my imagination. So, I sometimes refer to the Enformer as "Spinoza's God", which is usually taken to be the physical universe (Nature) itself. However, Spiny's theory was based on the 17th century assumption the world itself was Eternal. Now that we are told by experts that space-time-matter-energy began almost 14 billion years ago, and seems to be headed for a frosty finale in another 14+ billion years, I must assume that the hypothetical First Cause existed prior to the creative act of causation (Big Bang). :cool:

Spinoza's God : In a letter to Henry Oldenburg, Spinoza wrote: "as to the view of certain people that I identify god with nature (taken as a kind of mass or corporeal matter), they are quite mistaken". For Spinoza, our universe (cosmos) is a mode under infinite attributes, of which we can perceive two: Thought and Extension. God has infinitely many other attributes which are not present in our world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism



Gnomon March 05, 2021 at 00:14 #505846
Quoting T Clark
The term "emergence" has a specific technical meaning in this context. If it means what you indicate it does, all physical and chemical interaction between matter and energy represents emergence. The word loses all meaning.

You referred to a technical article about "broken symmetry", which may or may not apply to this thread. I didn't login to read the article, so please summarize, in your own words, what "Emergence" means to you? With that information we may be able to communicate with clearer "meanings". I assume the context is Quantum Mechanics, which we have touched-on only briefly, then moved on to other kinds of relationships.

As we are using the term "emergence" here, it does not apply to "all physical and chemical interactions", but only to those physical changes that result in a new kind of thing, with novel properties. Emergence is what identifies a whole system (concrete) as more than the sum of its parts (sand + cement + water). None of the constituent parts has any significant structural rigidity. As you pointed out : "Not every change in characteristics is emergence". Only those that create something new, from something old, But something borrowed or something blue does not count as emergence. :grin:

FYI -- here's my reply to the OP :
Generally, Emergent Properties are characteristic of a system-as-a-whole, rather than of individual components of the system. Those collective properties seem to mysteriously emerge from complex interrelationships between parts of the whole. The emergent effects are called "weak" when the ultimate cause is hidden within the complexity of causation. But when the effect can be traced back to a specific cause, it is considered to be "strong". So, Quantum Mechanics is a misnomer, because the links between causes & effects are seldom traceable to an obvious unbroken chain of causation. That's why I say that Quantum Theory has crossed over the line between reductive Science & holistic Philosophy. :smile:
Pop March 05, 2021 at 00:25 #505853
Quoting Gnomon
Technically, ideas (information) in the mind are embodied, even though they can be transferred into the energetic form for artificial transmission between bodies


Information and energy are always embodied in matter. Even in transit from one mind to another they transmit over matter. I see it as a material universe - even a vacuum is not empty.

I've mentioned to you previously that I've been grappling with information, energy and matter - thinking one might be a quality of the other, but not quite being able to fit it together satisfactorily in terms of qualities. I'm satisfied now that the correct term is relationship - the relationship of information and energy is matter. This fits! I think this is the logical fundamental base - the metaphysics of matter. Its quite a big deal for my analytical reductionist understanding! It is consistent with interrelational evolution, as everything must be.

Quoting Gnomon
So, I sometimes refer to the Enformer as "Spinoza's God", which is usually taken to be the physical universe (Nature) itself.


I prefer this understanding myself. :smile:
Pop March 05, 2021 at 01:18 #505873
Quoting Gnomon
So, I sometimes refer to the Enformer as "Spinoza's God", which is usually taken to be the physical universe (Nature) itself.


We are creating models that fit observation, so there will be different ways to do it. I do get what you are saying, but I personally tend to think in terms of interrelational evolution creating emergence, where the main thrust is determined with a slight random element creating variation.

The artist never creates exactly what they set out to create. I imagine you, as an architect , would be able to relate to this. There is always the X factor - which is the difference of what one sets out to create, and what one actually creates. Where dose the X come from, or go to? I have no idea, but I feel there is an X factor to all intentional activity. Would you agree?
Gnomon March 05, 2021 at 01:29 #505879
Quoting Pop
I've mentioned to you previously that I've been grappling with information, energy and matter - thinking one might be a quality of the other, but not quite being able to fit it together satisfactorily in terms of qualities. I'm satisfied now that the correct term is relationship - the relationship of information and energy is matter.

Yes, I've noticed that you tend to lean toward Materialism. But my worldview reverses your priority -- matter & energy are transient forms of eternal fundamental Enformation. In my view, matter is merely the container for information. Aristotle's Hylomorphism also placed Form & Matter on the same plane. But Plato's version of "Form" was Logos : a divine principle of order and knowledge. Which is what I call EnFormAction : the power to enform. to fashion, to create. In other words, the eternal potential of Ideality (Enformatiion) must logically be prior to the actual objects of physical reality ( Matter).

Did you notice that in Spinoza's own words, his God (my Enformer) has "attributes that are not present in our world". Hence, his God must exist outside of material reality. He rejected your materialistic God as "mistaken" ("mass of corporeal matter"). Instead, his "eternal universe" is not the one we experience with our physical senses. What he called "Thought" is what I label "Ideality", and his "Extension" is my material Reality. So, my worldview is compatible with Plato & Spinoza, while yours is amenable to Aristotle's. Yet, I don't base my philosophy on ancient authorities, but on modern reasoning. :smile:

Spinoza's God :In a letter to Henry Oldenburg, Spinoza wrote: "as to the view of certain people that I identify god with nature (taken as a kind of mass or corporeal matter), they are quite mistaken". For Spinoza, our universe (cosmos) is a mode under infinite attributes, of which we can perceive two: Thought and Extension. God has infinitely many other attributes which are not present in our world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism

Ideality : http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page11.html
Pop March 05, 2021 at 01:50 #505889
Quoting Gnomon
In my view, matter is merely the container for information.


In mine, matter is the container of information and energy - in a relationship. Materialists believe matter to be fundamental, I do not.

Quoting Gnomon
So, my worldview is compatible with Plato & Spinoza, while yours is amenable to Aristotle's. Yet, I don't base my philosophy on ancient authorities, but on modern reasoning. :smile:


I was referring to your physical universe statement, not Spinoza specifically. I also prefer modern reasoning.
Gnomon March 05, 2021 at 01:58 #505894
Quoting Pop
The artist never creates exactly what they set out to create. I imagine you, as an architect , would be able to relate to this. There is always the X factor - which is the difference of what one sets out to create, and what one actually creates. Where dose the X come from, or go to? I have no idea, but I feel there is an X factor to all intentional activity. Would you agree?

Yes. In my conjecture, the Artist deliberately encoded an "X factor" into the program of evolution. If evolution was completely determined by the intention of the artist, there would be no room for randomness in the world. And yet, modern science is reconciled to the essential randomness of physics (chaos) and biology (mutations) that are constantly opening new opportunities for novelty.
Hence, they conclude from that lack of determinism that the world could not have been created by an omnipotent God.

My notion of G*D is not biblical, but I see a good reason for including randomness to provide gaps in the chain of causation, allowing novelty to emerge. How else would big-brain humans, with freewill, evolve from single-cell organisms in a deterministic system? Since our world is both orderly & rational and chaotic & irrational, I conclude that the artist used randomness (like spattering paint) in order to achieve a specific effect. Historically, artists have ranged back & forth between Deterministic (realistic) portrayal and Free (impressionistic). So, I see our world as incorporating both, and evolution itself seems to be an open-ended experiment, where the final product is not fore-known. In my architecture, to my chagrin, I never had total control over the final outcome. But it usually worked-out OK. :grin:


Randomness in the Composition of Artwork :
https://tylerxhobbs.com/essays/2014/randomness-in-the-composition-of-artwork

THE ROLE OF RATIONALITY IN ARTISTIC PROCESS : An irrational way of making might involve an artist either knowing or not knowing fully what they want to create, but when making it, embracing the elements of chance, failure and experimentation.
https://www.assemblagemagazine.co.uk/rationality-in-artistic-process

Evolutionary Programming :
Special computer algorithms inspired by biological Natural Selection. It is similar to Genetic Programming in that it relies on internal competition between random alternative solutions to weed-out inferior results, and to pass-on superior answers to the next generation of algorithms. By means of such optimizing feedback loops, evolution is able to make progress toward the best possible solution – limited only by local restraints – to the original programmer’s goal or purpose. In Enformationism theory the Prime Programmer is portrayed as a creative deity, who uses bottom-up mechanisms, rather than top-down miracles, to produce a world with both freedom & determinism, order & meaning.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page13.html
Pop March 05, 2021 at 02:29 #505911
Quoting Gnomon
In my architecture, to my chagrin, I never had total control over the final outcome. But it usually worked-out OK. :grin:


:up: Same here.
T Clark March 05, 2021 at 04:19 #505940
Quoting Gnomon
You referred to a technical article about "broken symmetry", which may or may not apply to this thread. I didn't login to read the article, so please summarize, in your own words, what "Emergence" means to you?


Here's a better link to the article:

https://cse-robotics.engr.tamu.edu/dshell/cs689/papers/anderson72more_is_different.pdf

It discusses how different levels in the hierarchy of science relate to each other. For example, all of biology is consistent with chemistry and physics. That's the reductionist view and is non-controversial. But that doesn't mean you can generate the behavior of biological organisms and the laws of biology from the behavior of non-living matter or the laws of chemistry and physics. Biology emerges out of chemistry and physics.
Gnomon March 05, 2021 at 18:42 #506178
Quoting Pop
Information and energy are always embodied in matter. Even in transit from one mind to another they transmit over matter. I see it as a material universe - even a vacuum is not empty.

True. That's because Materialism is a commonsense view of reality. Information & Energy are invisible and intangible until embodied in some material form. For example Light energy is invisible, but we now know that it causes the "visual purple" chemical in the eye to initiate a chain reaction of physical changes that eventually produce an enformed (meaningful) image in the brain, which we then interpret as a material object out there in the real world. Those phenomena are what we know as reality, because we can only "know" the existence of noumena by rational inference.

Ancient people had no notion of Energy, so they explained its observed effects in terms of Spiritualism. Likewise, an information-based worldview is literally non-sense. It requires the ability to go beyond the senses. The "true" nature of Energy was unknown until Einstein equated it to the Mass --- a mathematical relationship between lightspeed (rate or ratio of change) and the causal energy content of light --- that our brains interpret as Matter. "Mass" literally means "coming together" of causation & form. In his theory of Relativity, Einstein also asserted that all things (physical objects) are relative. The real world is an interconnected network of relationships. Yet, both the connections (links) and the communications are forms of the fundamental universal (spiritual) power of Enformation.

So, the material universe is merely an imaginary image constructed in your brain/mind out of invisible Information. But it's not an illusion, because that pattern of information in your mind is as real as it gets. We cannot even imagine anything immaterial, except by analogy with the physical world. That's why ghosts are described in terms of imaginary substances like Ectoplasm. To understand Enformationism you have to go beyond the range of the physical senses, and use the sixth sense of Reason. Even then, as laymen, we have to accept that our Scientific priests -- who speak the arcane language of Math -- know what they are talking about. In their esoteric math-speak, they tell us that, what commonsense takes to be empty space (vacuum), is full of Potential. But, I have to take it on faith, because I can't see Probability (the future). :nerd:


Spiritualism, in philosophy, a characteristic of any system of thought that affirms the existence of immaterial reality imperceptible to the senses.

Is everything made up of matter? :
https://www.quora.com/Is-everything-made-up-of-matter/answer/Spencer-Kirk-13?ch=99&share=915c2cdd&srid=ozk3M

The mass-energy-information equivalence principle :
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.5123794

Reality is not what you see : In his doctrine of Transcendental Idealism, 18th century philosopher, Immanuel Kant argued that our perception of reality is limited to constructs created in our own minds to represent the invisible and intangible ultimate reality that he mysteriously labeled “ding an sich” [things-in-essence, as opposed to things-as-we-know-them]. In other words, what we think we see, is not absolute reality but our own ideas about reality.
http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page21.html
Gnomon March 05, 2021 at 18:52 #506182
Quoting T Clark
It discusses how different levels in the hierarchy of science relate to each other. For example, all of biology is consistent with chemistry and physics. That's the reductionist view and is non-controversial. But that doesn't mean you can generate the behavior of biological organisms and the laws of biology from the behavior of non-living matter or the laws of chemistry and physics. Biology emerges out of chemistry and physics.

That stuff is way over my head. So, I'm still waiting for your dumbed-down philosophical summary of whatever that scientific jargon has to do with the topic of this thread : "What is the relationship, if any, between emergent properties and quantum mechanics?" Here's a clue : it's not questioning whether "biology emerges out of chemistry and physics". :smile:
Pop March 05, 2021 at 23:45 #506274
Quoting Gnomon
True. That's because Materialism is a commonsense view of reality. Information & Energy are invisible and intangible until embodied in some material form


Yes, I knew you would understand it, so didn't bother to spell it out.

Quoting Gnomon
"Mass" literally means "coming together" of causation & form. In his theory of Relativity, Einstein also asserted that all things (physical objects) are relative. The real world is an interconnected network of relationships. Yet, both the connections (links) and the communications are forms of the fundamental universal (spiritual) power of Enformation.


Yes, I have always agreed with Enformation, with energy, information and matter being in a relationship, but couldn't quite articulate the relationship at the most fundamental level. Fundamentally nothing exists on its own, something can only exist relative to something else - hence the relationship of energy and information = matter. Its the only way it fits together, and it is consistent with interrelational evolution, which is consistent with the best understandings - Einstein, Darwin, etc ( even Glattfelder concludes with structural realism and its relational understanding ).

Normally matter is understood as information + matter/energy, but this is too messy for my liking. Logically it sits most fundamentally as the relationship of energy and information = matter The fundamental elements are energy, information, and relationship - permutations of these create matter, and all that exists is just endless permutations of the relationship of information and energy as matter - growing in complexity unto human consciousness!

I think this is consistent with your Enformation understanding.

Quoting Gnomon
Spiritualism, in philosophy, a characteristic of any system of thought that affirms the existence of immaterial reality imperceptible to the senses.


My philosophy is most closely aligned with idealism, so, for me, attributing extra information to sense mediated perception is just a normal part of constructivist cognition. Spiritualism suggests an immaterial element, whereas I see a monist universe full of materials - no room left for the immaterial. :smile: But I understand what you mean.
Gnomon March 06, 2021 at 03:40 #506352
Quoting Pop
Yes, I have always agreed with Enformation, with energy, information and matter being in a relationship,

Ironically, one problem with using "relationship" to define Information, is that a Google search almost always returns a long list of human relationship advice. Which is why I try to use more abstract terms like "ratio" or "pattern" or "form" or "Logos". One definition of "pattern" is :to give a regular or intelligible form to things. That's also similar to the definition of "geometry" : the shape and relative arrangement of the parts of something. So, I tend to think of "Enformation" as a process of re-arranging the geometric patterns of objects in the world. An enformed thing is essentially a meaningful pattern of both geometric and logical relationships.

Unfortunately, defining Ultimate Ideal Information as abstract (immaterial), geometric (measurable) or logical (meaningful) relationships is accurate, but even those terms carry some ancient metaphysical baggage, ascribing religious or sacred significance to mere angular ratios. Which implies that God has set-apart certain patterns & relationships as holy or consecrated or taboo. And, apart from specific religious traditions, I have no reason to think that anything in this world is off-limits to the inquiring mind. Likewise, defining two people or things as being "in a relationship" often implies a sacred emotional connection or bond. Which in the real world is, sadly, seldom actually inviolable.

So, it's hard to find words to describe information patterns & relationships, without getting entangled with gods & taboos & sentiment & magic. But I keep trying to find words to describe Enformationism, that don't remind people of specific religious & mystical traditions, when I'm trying to formulate a secular scientific paradigm. :worry:

Metaphysical Geometry :
Thus, we believe and we can show that metaphysical truths, which are entirely independent of the concepts of god, creation, divine, etc. but are at the same time the very source and ground of all these concepts and realities, is best conveyed through geometry.
https://tomajjavidtash.com/2016/03/13/metaphysics-geometry/

Sacred geometry : Sacred geometry ascribes symbolic and sacred meanings to certain geometric shapes and certain geometric proportions.[1] It is associated with the belief that a god is the geometer of the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry

LOGOS : the principle of reason
Logic : pattern recognition
Gnomon March 06, 2021 at 03:54 #506358
Quoting Pop
My philosophy is most closely aligned with idealism, so, for me, attributing extra information to sense mediated perception is just a normal part of constructivist cognition. Spiritualism suggests an immaterial element, whereas I see a monist universe full of materials - no room left for the immaterial.

For me, Information can be both Ideal & immaterial and concrete & material. As a Platonic Ideal Form, the power of Enformation is timeless & spaceless. But, as a Material Real form, the energy of EnFormAction is bound by space & time. It's difficult to convey that dualistic Monism, but the BothAnd principle is my attempt to do so. Enformation is both material and immaterial. :smile:

Both/And Principle :
My coinage for the holistic principle of Complementarity, as illustrated in the Yin/Yang symbol. Opposing or contrasting concepts are always part of a greater whole. Conflicts between parts can be reconciled or harmonized by putting them into the context of a whole system.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page10.html

Note -- I use the term "Spiritualism" to indicate the primitive understanding of EnFormAction flowing in the world, enforming things and communicating ideas. Their "Spirit" (animating breath) is what we now know as "Energy" (causal force), and what I call the process of enforming (changing from one form to another). Sometimes the form changes, via evolutionary steps, from inert to living matter.
T Clark March 06, 2021 at 05:08 #506384
Quoting Gnomon
"What is the relationship, if any, between emergent properties and quantum mechanics?" Here's a clue : it's not questioning whether "biology emerges out of chemistry and physics".


Here's what I wrote in my first post in this thread:

Quoting T Clark
Emergence and quantum mechanics describe different kinds of phenomena.


That's a bit vague because I didn't want to come out and say that the two are not related at all. Some QM properties are emergent, some emergent properties are QM, but there is no direct relationship between them. Perhaps someone will correct me if I've misunderstood something.

I sent you the link to the emergence article because your question indicated to me you don't understand what emergence is. I got whatever grasp of the issue I have from this article.

Gnomon March 06, 2021 at 19:09 #506695
Quoting T Clark
I sent you the link to the emergence article because your question indicated to me you don't understand what emergence is. I got whatever grasp of the issue I have from this article.

Since I'm not likely to read that highly technical article, I was hoping you would be able to define "Emergence" in your own words. That would show that you actually have a "grasp" of the concept, as it applies to Quantum Mechanics. I suspect that your understanding may be a Reductionist (individualist) version of the sudden "coming into view" (appearance) of something that was hidden. And that might be compatible with a general dictionary definition.

But my definition of "Emergence" is Holistic, in the sense of something with novel properties or qualities "coming into being". It is also a defining feature of complex systems, including Quantum Entanglement. So that's why I think there is indeed a relationship between quantum mechanics and the phenomenon of Emergence. :smile:

Emergence :
1. the process of coming into view or becoming exposed after being concealed.
2. the process of coming into being, or of becoming important or prominent.
___Oxford Dictionary
3. Evolution. the appearance of new properties or species in the course of development or evolution.

Holism, Emergence, and the Crucial Distinction :
One issue of dispute between methodological individualists and methodological holists is whether holist explanations are dispensable in the sense that individualist explanations are able to do their explanatory job.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-05344-8_10

Emergence :
In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors which emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole. Emergence plays a central role in theories of integrative levels and of complex systems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Defining emergence in physics :
The term emergent is used to evoke collective behaviour of a large number of microscopic constituents that is qualitatively different than the behaviours of the individual constituents.
https://www.nature.com/articles/npjquantmats201624

Strong Emergence Is Holism, Not Magic :
Strong emergence doesn't hold that high-level or irreducible properties arise spontaneously or inexplicably from aggregates, as if by magic. Instead, strong emergence is a type of holism in which complex aggregates are seen as more than mere aggregates from the start
https://www.zacharyfruhling.com/philosophy-blog/strong-emergence-is-holism-not-magic

T Clark March 06, 2021 at 19:43 #506713
Quoting Gnomon
Since I'm not likely to read that highly technical article,


You want to intelligently discuss a technical subject, but you don't want to read a technical paper. Instead, you'd rather continue using the word "emergence" incorrectly. That doesn't make any sense. The article is not "highly technical" and it's not difficult.