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Navalny and Russia

Changeling January 23, 2021 at 05:27 9750 views 54 comments
It feels like a wind of change is blowing across Russia, and strengthening.

Has anyone here watched this video by Navalny which is currently doing the rounds?



Where do you think this is heading? Will (can) putin ever be removed?

Comments (54)

BC January 23, 2021 at 06:37 #491774
It seems like V. Putin is as firmly in place as any of his soviet predecessors were. Who would remove him? Street demonstrators? Angry voters? Truth-telling? Putin is not a one-man act. Does he not have plenty of powerful friends (fellow liars, thieves, knaves, and scoundrels) whose mutual interests are going to be protected all round?

Yes, one day Putin will be removed from office, perhaps by the undertaker. Or, maybe another crook will oust him and pick up where Putin left off. I don't expect a refreshing revolution and an outbreak of democratic virtue in the near term.
Changeling January 23, 2021 at 14:44 #491856
Reply to Bitter Crank but with the pandemic the ground has shifted. Many protests are happening in various Russian cities: https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN29R10S
Pierre-Normand January 23, 2021 at 14:58 #491860
Quoting The Opposite
(...) but with the pandemic the ground has shifted. Many protests are happening in various Russian cities (...)


Also, he suffered a big electoral blow recently. He lost the White House.

Changeling January 23, 2021 at 15:05 #491863
Changeling January 23, 2021 at 15:29 #491869
Today hundreds have been detained in protests across Russia: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55778334
Miguel HernΓ‘ndez January 23, 2021 at 16:49 #491883
Reply to The Opposite

I guess he went to get the second dose of novichok.
Changeling January 23, 2021 at 17:22 #491893
Gnomon January 23, 2021 at 19:04 #491923
Quoting Bitter Crank
Truth-telling? Putin is not a one-man act

Sadly, Putin seems to be like tell'm-what-they-want-to-hear Trump, except with KGB spycraft. He seems to be popular with non-intellectuals, because he promises to make Russia great again : MRGA --- as in the Soviet Empire. But, unlike the US, Russia doesn't have an ingrained tradition of democracy to limit the populist persuasive power of ego-driven autocrats. :sad:
Changeling January 23, 2021 at 19:18 #491932
Quoting Gnomon
He seems to be popular with non-intellectuals


putin and co also fearmonger to attempt to get the populace on side:
Changeling January 23, 2021 at 19:23 #491934
BC January 23, 2021 at 19:37 #491942
Reply to The Opposite And I am very happy about the demonstrations. Can public resistance bring Putin down? Given big enough demonstrations that continue long enough, and with at least tacit cooperation from at least some of the powers that be, Putin might be brought down, or at least humiliated (egotistical thugs like Putin and Trump hate that).

But then there is the Hong Kong example, where massive demonstrations and tacit cooperation from some of the powers that be, the apparatchiks didn't crumble. Of course Russia and Hong Kong are vastly different.
Changeling January 23, 2021 at 21:14 #491984
Reply to Bitter Crank it's high time these protesters were armed.
Hanover January 23, 2021 at 21:19 #491987
Quoting The Opposite
high time these protesters were armed.


They just need horns and animal skins.
Changeling January 23, 2021 at 21:33 #491996
Reply to Hanover if they were hicks and fighting for the complete opposite reasons.
BC January 23, 2021 at 21:58 #492010
Reply to Hanover Reply to The Opposite

Messenger: "The people are revolting."
King Hanover: "Yes, they certainly are."
Messenger: "What shall we do?"
King Hanover: "Release the hounds."
Changeling January 24, 2021 at 00:45 #492086
Changeling January 24, 2021 at 02:45 #492113
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Jamal January 24, 2021 at 12:49 #492234
Quoting The Opposite
Has anyone watched this video by Navalny


Yep: as I write this it's had over 79 million views :grin:
Changeling January 24, 2021 at 16:32 #492300
Quoting The Opposite
Has anyone here watched


Quoting jamalrob
Yep: as I write this it's had over 79 million views :grin:


Fixed
Changeling January 25, 2021 at 16:09 #492819
Reply to jamalrob what are your thoughts on the protests? Did you join in?
Jamal January 25, 2021 at 16:48 #492841
Quoting The Opposite
what are your thoughts on the protests? Did you join in?


I think they're entirely justified and I hope it has some momentum, although it's difficult to see how at the moment. And no, I stayed well away from the city centre. Getting arrested or kicked out of the country is something I want to avoid at all costs. Not only that but I don't feel like it's my fight, or maybe, I don't feel I know enough about it. I think on balance that Navalny is to be admired and supported right now, but his apparent past support of ethnic Russian nationalism isn't something I could get behind.

But that last point isn't all that significant here. Obviously the protesters were not nationalists in that sense; they were protesting against authoritarianism and corruption. Really it's just that I can't risk getting kicked out.
ssu January 25, 2021 at 17:02 #492849
Quoting The Opposite
Where do you think this is heading? Will (can) putin ever be removed?


Of course, but I'm not so sure about it. Yet quite high numbers of arrested.

Remember Belarus? The mass demonstrations there? For what I know, Lukashenka is still President.
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You see, there's a pattern. Russians do have protested against Putin for a long time.
Moscow protests in 2019:
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Moscow protests in 2016:
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Demonstrators in Russia mourn and protest the death of Boris Nemtsov 2015:
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Who remembers Boris Nemtsov?

Moscow protests after Putin's re-election 2011:
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And there may be many large demonstrations against Putin that I miss here.

So what's new now? Russians will try to copy Americans?

Or that the US doesn't have Agent Trumpov in the White House to praise Vlad, but this guy below?

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ssu January 25, 2021 at 17:12 #492853
At least Alexei Navalny was against the banning of Trump on Twitter.

Russian opposition politician Alexei Navalny on Saturday criticized Twitter for banning US President Donald Trump from the social platform following Wednesday's attack at the US Capitol in Washington, DC.

In a Twitter thread, Navalny said he thinks the ban is "an unacceptable act of censorship. - This precedent will be exploited by the enemies of freedom of speech around the world. In Russia as well. Every time when they need to silence someone, they will say: 'this is just common practice, even Trump got blocked on Twitter,'" Navalny wrote. "


Changeling January 25, 2021 at 17:32 #492858
Quoting jamalrob
but his apparent past support of ethnic Russian nationalism isn't something I could get behind


Source?
Changeling January 25, 2021 at 17:35 #492861
Quoting ssu
So what's new now?


Social media; apps like Tiktok are helping mobilize Russia's younger demographic against putin's regime.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/protests-russia-navalny-tiktok/31063626.html
Jamal January 25, 2021 at 17:35 #492862
Reply to The Opposite Plenty of information around. Just look for it yourself. Not that it's significant in the present context.
Changeling January 25, 2021 at 17:44 #492864
Reply to jamalrob had a quick butcher's. Looks completely farcical compared to putin's instrumental use of nationalism.
Changeling January 25, 2021 at 17:54 #492866
Navalny is illegally detained right now and Russia might lose the only recognizable opposition politician who isn't fake, already emigrated or dead.
Changeling January 25, 2021 at 17:57 #492867
The US got rid of it's tyrant. Time for Russia to do the same.
Changeling January 25, 2021 at 20:14 #492905
Jamal January 25, 2021 at 21:02 #492925
Quoting The Opposite
Looks completely farcical compared to putin's instrumental use of nationalism.


If I was a Russian liberal opponent of the regime I'd be troubled that the only guy I could support once attended far-right marches, and during the short war between Russia and Georgia referred to Georgians as rodents, and urged the government to take more drastic action:

[quote=Navalny, 2008, through Google Translate]Russia should take the following steps (at least):

1. Provide serious military and financial assistance to South Ossetia and Abkhazia (to the extent that Abkhazia is ready to actually fight in South Ossetia).
2. Declare South Ossetia a non-flying zone and immediately shoot down all aircraft that are in this zone.
3. To declare a complete blockade of Georgia. Stop any communication with her.
4. [b]To expel from the Russian Federation all citizens of Georgia who are on our territory.

In the future, act according to the situation, but at the same time be aware that of course you really want to fire a cruise missile at the general staff of rodents, but the rodents are just waiting for this.[/b]
[/quote]
https://navalny.livejournal.com/274456.html

"Rodents" ("grizuny"), was a known ethnic slur against Georgians. He has since apologized for the slur but stood by the rest of it.

Generally it looks like he was somewhere around the xenophobic end of the Russian political spectrum, with a less-than-accommodating attitude to immigrants from the former Soviet republics of the Caucasus and Central Asia.

But as I've implied, I think this could be set aside in the fight against authoritarianism and corruption, and it's possible he has moderated his views. I'm certainly impressed by him at the moment. I'm not trying to cancel him as the pro-Putin tankies are no doubt spending all their time doing as I write this (I wasn't surprised to see the socialist Monthly Review peddling the idea that Navalny's return is a CIA plot).

As for Putin's nationalism, what exactly are you referring to? He's a pragmatist when it comes to issues of ethnicity, and more often than not emphasizes the multi-ethnic nature of Russia: one of the things he has always been afraid of is the country falling apart.
ssu January 25, 2021 at 23:02 #492968
Quoting The Opposite
Social media; apps like Tiktok are helping mobilize Russia's younger demographic against putin's regime.

Wasn't social media around during the Arab Spring? Russian youth have had the net for a long time.

One fact to notice is that actually the Russian Opposition to Putin aren't actually very Pro-Western, or at least aren't politically correct when viewed from the West. It shows the distrust or suspicion Russians do have towards the West. Nemtsov had been a deputy prime minister during the Yeltsin years and an outspoke critic of Putin, while Navalnyi I think hasn't held office. Yet I think both Navalny (and the late Nemtsov) are obvious signs that there truly is an opposition towards Putin and Russians don't fear so much the government. Soviet times have gone and Putin cannot rule like a Soviet leader.

(Navalnyi and his wife with the late Boris Nemtsov, who was murdered in 2015)
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Jamal January 26, 2021 at 06:03 #493095
Quoting ssu
One fact to notice is that actually the Russian Opposition to Putin aren't actually very Pro-Western, or at least aren't politically correct when viewed from the West. It shows the distrust or suspicion Russians do have towards the West. Nemtsov had been a deputy prime minister during the Yeltsin years and an outspoke critic of Putin, while Navalnyi I think hasn't held office.


As far as I can tell, Nemtsov was actually quite pro-West. For example, unlike Navalny he was against the annexation of Crimea, and supportive of Ukraine's closer ties with the West.
ssu January 26, 2021 at 12:43 #493175
Reply to jamalrobYes, Nemtsov was in the camp of being basically Pro-Ukrainian. And coming from the Yeltsin camp he was quite pro-Western, but only up to a point (as was Yeltsin himself).

Nemtsov was the only Russian politician who stood together with Ukrainians in the frosty Maidan of 2004 together with the then leaders, Viktor Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko. For some Ukrainian politicians, his engagement with this country was even too much. In 2005, Oleg Tyagnibok, then a little-known right-wing politician, proposed to the Verkhovna Rada a measure that would prevent Nemtsov from continuing to serve as an official adviser to the president, since this position would be tantamount to interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine. Nemtsov was among the first critics of the Minsk agreements as inoperative, and called for Ukraine to wall off the breakaway regions in the Donbas.


In short, the simple thing is that the Russian opposition towards Putin aren't stooges of the West and if (a big if) they do come into power after Putin, it won't be all dancing on roses for the West.

Changeling January 31, 2021 at 18:15 #495191
More Orwellian scenes from putin's Russia:


Changeling January 31, 2021 at 19:23 #495215
Quoting ssu
Russian opposition towards Putin aren't stooges of the West


putin and by extension RT seem to think so.
ssu January 31, 2021 at 21:07 #495235
Reply to The Opposite Good old Radio Free Europe. :up:

I think it's just actually that 20 years is far too much of one leader in one country...if the people aren't Finns, I might add. Putin simply couldn't retire with Dmitri Medvedev taking the helm after him. At least that would have kept the thin veil, or rather facade, of democracy in Russia. Now there isn't any.

Until now, the first and last Russian leader to peacefully retire:
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Changeling February 01, 2021 at 00:21 #495328
putin should be electrocuted (in the chair)

Changeling February 01, 2021 at 00:22 #495329
Quoting ssu
if the people aren't Finns, I might add.


What do you mean?
Changeling February 01, 2021 at 04:30 #495451
Over half of protesters have reportedly said this is their first protest:

Changeling February 02, 2021 at 16:04 #496011
Russia's political majority

ssu February 02, 2021 at 18:20 #496055
Quoting The Opposite
What do you mean?


We had a President from 1956 to 1982 and only when totally incapacitated of old age did he retire. He won four terms in free elections and one extension of a term (the third). And wasn't a dictator, no demonstrations against him, no secret police hounding dissidents. Of course, he (a centrist btw) was the main man of the Soviet Union and a good friends with the Soviet leadership. Yes, he was the embodiment of Finlandization. He died in 1986 at the age of 86.

Some politicians argued that he should run for the sixth Presidential term. Afterwards my country opted for two-term limits. Whopee!
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Yes, Finns are a bit different. Saatana!

Jamal February 02, 2021 at 18:29 #496057
Navalny gets 2 years and 8 months. In a "penal colony", which always makes me think of the Gulag.
Changeling February 02, 2021 at 20:39 #496101
Reply to ssu does Saatana mean satan?
Changeling February 02, 2021 at 20:40 #496102
Reply to jamalrob now he's a living martyr
ssu February 02, 2021 at 21:31 #496120
Reply to The Opposite Yes.

Reply to jamalrob Wonder if he gets a cell mate with tuberculosis or/and Covid-19.
Changeling February 02, 2021 at 23:26 #496158
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Changeling February 03, 2021 at 18:14 #496443
[tweet]https://twitter.com/A_Kapustin/status/1356709945002119170?s=19[/tweet]
Changeling February 04, 2021 at 05:38 #496674
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Changeling April 21, 2021 at 17:30 #525388
[tweet]https://twitter.com/teamnavalny/status/1384915185446567945?s=19[/tweet]

More waves of protests across Russia. Navalny dieing. putin with his horde of morons on the Ukrainian border.

putin needs to be taken out already.
Changeling April 22, 2021 at 04:31 #525578
[tweet]https://twitter.com/k_sonin/status/1384931383769014274?s=19[/tweet]
180 Proof April 22, 2021 at 05:37 #525589
The military junta in Myanmar's murderous crackdown and repression seems a dress-rehearsal – along with Putin's recent military build-up on the Russia-Ukraine border, a diversionary pretext – for what the Kremlin will have to unleash on its own people in the near-term to keep that kleptocratic gangster regime in power. Just my 2 ?????? rubles.
ssu April 22, 2021 at 06:47 #525601
Reply to 180 Proof Does it have to?

It seems that restraint in the use of deadly violence (yet otherwise maintaining a large crackdown), persistence and not backing down DOES make it. At least the Western media will get bored with it and not report it, so out of sight, out of mind.

How is the situation now in Hong Kong? I think that the Chinese authorities are now in control.

How is the situation now in Belarus? - Svetlana Tikhanovskaya was last month calling for 2nd wave of protests from excile. I haven't noticed huge demonstrations anymore though.

The situation is far more bleak than you portray it: the totalitarian regimes don't have to unleash a wave of all out violence like some desperate Ghaddafi clinging on power and bring the country into total anarchy, their security machines are working well.
180 Proof April 22, 2021 at 07:20 #525611
Reply to ssu :chin: